Prophesy

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Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 3:59pm

I am going to rest now Brother I have to go to the doctor in a few hours, it's 6AM here in the Philippines

May God hold you and yours
PJ

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 3:57pm

Post-Trib Events

Mt 24:29 immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Mt 24:31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mt 24:33 When you see all these things, know that it is near——at the doors!

Mt 24:36 of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Mt 24:43,44 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Mt 24:39,40 so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Correlation

Rev 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

1Thessalonians 4:16,17
the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command,
withthe voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1Thess 5:

1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

1Corinthians 15:51,52 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed– in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

2Thess 2:

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2Thess 1:
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 3:50pm

Wrath Issues

Another argument made by those who prefer the pre-trib rapture theory is that since the events in the tribulation are allegedly all associated with God's wrath, and since believers are not subject to God's wrath, therefore the rapture must occur prior to the tribulation.

First of all of course it can be pointed out that there are Christians of all generations who have been subjected to the kinds of suffering associated with the great tribulation. There have been Christians tortured to death for their faith. And there have been Christians who have died in natural disasters, which God may have been brought about because of the sinfulness of a society. So it has already been proven as historical fact that Christians may in fact suffer as innocent victims things which are associated with God's wrath, as well as of course being subject to persecution.

Secondly even the pre-trib theory acknowledges that there are genuine believers - yes even preachers of the gospel - who live through the tribulation, who allegedly became believers after that alleged pre-trib rapture. But this disproves their very contention - that genuine believers don't live through the tribulation. If believers are not subject to God's wrath, then neither are those who become believers during the tribulation subject to God's wrath.

I love you Brother

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 3:45pm

Although I could very well be wrong, I am a truth seeker Brother

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 3:43pm

Basically here is where I stand as of now my Brother.
Taken from a old study

Proofs of an Exclusively Post-Trib Resurrrection/Rapture

Proof #1:

Mt 24:43,44 associates "Thief in the Night" with the post-trib coming of the Lord
1Thess chapters 4 and 5 associate the "Thief in the night" coming with the Day of the Lord and with the Rapture which Paul anticipated for himself and the Thessalonians, were they to live that long.
Now unless there are two "thief in the night" days of the Lord, this proves not only that there will be a post-trib rapture, but also proves that there can be no pre-trib rapture, unless we believe Paul and the Thessalonians are excluded from that resurrection and rapture.
Besides there being no scriptural evidence of two "thief in the night" days of the Lord, both taking people by surprise, if there were two then the first would have already alerted people to the circumstances. Thus it seems reasonable that there could only be one such coming of the Lord. Thus since there is such a day associated with his post-trib coming in Mt 24, this disproves a pre-trib rapture.

Proof #2:

1Cor 15:51,52 Indicates that there will be a resurrection and a rapture at the last trumpet.
Paul uses the word "we" indicating that resurrection and rapture will be that which he and the Corinthians would partake.
The last trumpet in Revelation is the 7th trumpet of Rev 11:15, which is post-trib.
This disproves the pre-trib rapture, unless we are to believe that the resurrection corresponding to that rapture would not include the early church.

Proof #3:

2Thess 2 refers to the coming of the Lord in which Paul believed he and the early Church would be "gathered to him". Notice the phrase "our being gathered to him".He indicates that their being gathered to the Lord would not occur until after the antiChrist is revealed and after the apostacy (Yes it's literally "apostasia" in the Greek) Jesus alluded to the apostacy in Mt 24:10 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other." And consistent with 2Thess, Jesus continues in Mt 24 by speaking about the antiChrist, all of which constitute elements of the great tribulation. Then Jesus speaks of the gathering in Mt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." But if Paul was talking about a different gathering which occurred prior to these events then he would have simply told the Thessalonians that the reason why they should know that gathering hadn't occur is because they had not been raptured. This proves that the rapture/resurrection of which Paul anticipated for himself and the early church would occur after the tribulation had started, and as such disproves a pre-trib rapture.

Proof #4:

The Rapture is associated with "the day of the Lord". (1Thess 5:2 "for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." for example which corresponds to the rapture mentioned in 1Thess 4:16,17.) But while I agree that the day referred to may extend over a period of time, there are verses which indicate certain events to preceed the start of that day. Notice Joel 2:31 says, "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (And Peter quotes this in Acts 2 as applying to the church) And 2Thess 2:2,3 "not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed." Since the raptures occurs on the day of the Lord, and since the day of the Lord doesn't start until after events associated with the great tribulation occur - the rebellion/apostacy, the revealing of the antiChrist, the sun turned to darkness - this disproves the idea of a pre-trib rapture.

Yours in Messiah
PJ

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 3:17pm

sorry Brother

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 3:17pm

Brother Glean
As I said I am very sick, haven’t slept for two days and can’t see very well so I can’t possibly read all that right now, so I’d just like to know where you stand on this issue pre or post?
Thanks Brother

Comment by Michael on July 12, 2009 at 2:57pm

God will shape clouds in real-time in the peaceful interaction of syncronicity

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 2:55pm

Wow Brother Glen
that is some teaching, but like i said before i am very sick and so tired so maybe i missed something if so please forgive me i have only one half way good eye left and SLE LUPUS, Do you believe in the pretribulation rapture or post?

be blessed
PJ

Comment by Denise on July 10, 2009 at 6:56pm

I do not worry about what is going to happen from one day to the next, as I leave it all in God's hands. He already has plans for me, and if I like them or not, I have to realise that the Lord only has plans he knows I can do and no body else. I am just waiting on him. That all I can do.

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