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Infant baptism
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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Bradley,
I found excellent research on the topic of Baptism of Infants of Christian parents at Infant Baptism.
Here's some questions to ponder:
Many times, the debate regarding infant baptism is a defensive one; those who propose that adult baptism is the only valid form challenge those who practice infant baptism to prove that it is an acceptable practice. What if those who exclusively favor adult baptism were interrogated? What answers would they give to questions which up until now have been virtually unaddressed?
Questions such as these:
- If infant baptism is a later invention, when did it begin and who began it? Where did it originate?
- Why are there no protests against the validity of infant baptism from anyone in the early Church?
- Where is anything found in Scripture that expressly forbids the baptism of infants or children?
- How is it that God established a covenantal, corporate relationship with the tribes of Israel in the Old Testament, but you interpret the New Testament as abolishing the faith of an entire household with the father at its head in favor of a solely individualistic faith?
- Where does Scripture prescribe any age for baptism?
- Even if there were a special age when someone's faith reached "maturity," how could one discern that? Doesn't faith always mature? When is faith mature enough for baptism and when is it not? Who can judge?
- Where in Scripture does it say that children are free from the effects of the Fall simply because they are not old enough to believe? (Even creation is under the curse of mankind's fall-Romans 8:19-21.)
- What about the many Biblical meanings and early Christian understandings of baptism other than the one defining it as a visible sign of inward repentance, meanings such as the sacrament of regeneration (Titus 3:5), a grafting into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), a passage from the reign of Satan into Christ's authority (Romans 6:17), the expression of the manifestation of God (Luke 3:21, 22), an admission into God's covenant (Colossians 2:11), the Lord's act of adoption and our putting on of Christ (Galatians 3:26, 27)? Why should these things be taken away from the small child of a Christian family?
- If it was the norm to baptize children at a later age, why is there no evidence in Scripture or early Church history of instruction given to parents on how to help their adolescent children prepare for baptism?
- If it is granted that baptism is for the remission of sins, why would the Church ever want to give baptism to infants if there were nothing in the infants which needed remission? Would not the grace of baptism, in this context, seem superfluous?
- In essence, laying aside all the polemics and prejudices and academic intricacies, what Scriptural principle is being violated if a child is baptized and then matures in his faith?
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Hi Sharon, i appreciate your contribution on this and I respect your opinion and commitment to faith in Christ, even though we have very divergent views on some topics.
I want to challenge some of your rhetoric: eg. >>Where does Scripture prescribe any age for baptism? and also
>>Where is anything found in Scripture that expressly forbids the baptism of infants or children?
We could ask the same type of questions on another topic, such as: where does scripture prescribe singing as part of worship? -or- Where does Scripture prescribe worship of Christ at all?- or - where does scripture expressly forbid drunkeness or drug addiction?
What Scripture does, in many cases is demonstrate, rather than prescribe. Essential truth is commanded, and then it is lived out for us by examples and narrative to understand how to be self prescriptive.
I think you would agree that prescription for worship is made under the Old Covenant, but not so with the New. The same is true with the Baptism issue. Under the New Covenant we are not commanded, or prescribed as you have said, to circumcise infants. Under the New Covenant, we are not commanded to sacrifice animals or to do specific liturgy. But, we understand by example that worship is a part of the spiritual life of a New Covenant believer.
So the premise of your questions is a false premise.
I don't think anyone has suggested here that as Christians we should fail to complete a form of dedication and sacred offering of our children as "fathers" (or Ab) of the family, or that we should relinquish our roles of leading our households to faith and obedience to Christ. So, making that point is a straw-man argument. Nor has anyone denied the doctrine of Original Sin, as you are alluding in your 7th point.
What has been sorted through in great detail is whether Bradley and people like him ought to make the step of faith and obedience to become baptized - as a sign of receiving that covenant from Christ. I am utterly convinced that Bradley would do himself a disservice to miss this as a rite of passage and a sign of his determination to follow Jesus as a rational, thinking and self determined adult believer in Jesus.
What "infant baptism" practices do is cheapen the meaning of the rite (or sacrament) of baptism, itself as a rational grown mature person making a declaration of faith in Jesus. It becomes a panacea that somehow is interpreted as "fixing my God issue". I can tell you that I was baptized as an infant - I have the picture. But, my heart was as far from God as possible when I was a young adult. Turning in faith to Jesus and being baptized REVOLUTIONIZED my life.
I think that by trying to keep focusing on the infant's baptism is to fully diminish the power and significance of the decision of the adult to pursue a walk with Christ. I know that in my case, my Catholic family shamed me for making the decision to be baptized as an adult and it drove a stake through the heart of our relationship. I was made to choose conformity or obedience. and I thank God that my pastor's teaching rung in my ears, when he used to quote Jesus "Those who love their father or mother more than they love me are not worthy to be my followers."
To blindly follow the dictates of men is sin. To fully trust in Christ and obey his word is righteous. Baptism is a microcosm of that, we demonstrate what we value when we turn to him and follow his way.
Dedicate your kiddos with sprinkles of water and a cherry on top if you must. But, do not fail as a follower of Christ to stand up, in front of witnesses and be baptized as a testimony of faith in his complete and absolute cleansing of your sins at the Cross, and the power of his resurrection. When you do that, you will know that you have taken a step to obey His words and not the traditions of men.
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Scribe,
I respect your opinion and commitment to faith in Christ, however, your response could be read as offensive.
- I want to challenge some of your rhetoric:
- So the premise of your questions is a false premise.
- So, making that point is a straw-man argument.
- Nor has anyone denied the doctrine of Original Sin, as you are alluding in your 7th point. (please read the first post on this list, and the 3rd, the 4th, …)
- To blindly follow the dictates of men is sin. To fully trust in Christ and obey his word is righteous. Baptism is a microcosm of that, we demonstrate what we value when we turn to him and follow his way.
- Dedicate your kiddos with sprinkles of water and a cherry on top if you must. But, do not fail as a follower of Christ to stand up, in front of witnesses and be baptized as a testimony of faith in his complete and absolute cleansing of your sins at the Cross, and the power of his resurrection. When you do that, you will know that you have taken a step to obey His words and not the traditions of men.
Please consider that I am not ‘blindly following the dictates of men’ but am striving to do the best I can to follow Jesus.
Sharon.
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Sharon, I won't apologize for offending, if my offense is in truth and in love. I have checked my motives, which are to be a blessing, for the cause of Christ; a blessing to you and a blessing to others. But, I must speak truth, whether it offends or not.
I noticed that you took exception with the first part of my statements, but not with the reasoning behind it. I won't judge why, but rather I have a question for you to consider. Please understand that by asking this, I mean to do so in a way that is a blessing to you, and is with genuine interest.
Question: Have you, as a believer, ever stood before friends, family and strangers as an adult to be baptized for the name of Christ?
You see, what I mean by the traditions of men is that in the Roman church, for which you are an obvious apologist, they discourage that. No, you won't hear the Rector preach a sermon saying you don't need it, rather what they have developed is a man-made tradition for raising disciples in their image. But, I dare say it's not truly in Christ's image. They pick and choose, according to their own traditions, what they will follow and what they will not of the Bible's teachings. In doing this, in my opinion, they have gone the way of the Pharisees, whom Jesus rebuked. Rome has developed an elaborate set of traditions and teachings that are additions to the word of God. Consider that carefully, in context of the warnings at the end of both Deuteronomy and Revelation.
The Bible is replete with examples and instructions toward adults being baptized for the remission of sins and as a testimony of faith. However, the Vatican has developed a tradition of what "the remission of sins" means and entails which diverged from Biblical truth many centuries ago. So, in order to fulfill the Vatican's definition, they modified the meaning of Baptism.
Understand, this is not my issue with the Vatican, it is an issue that Christians of various stripes have been bringing to their attention for the best part of a thousand years.
But, let's bring it back to us, here and now. We have a command, as rational thinking people of faith in Christ - to be baptized. Leaving behind all of the issues of meaning and efficacy that have been discussed on the topic here, we each must make a choice, as rational adult people of faith - will we obey? It is not sufficient to say "I was taught thus" or "my parents obeyed for me" or "I think that my church's teaching is more relevant than the Bible". The bottom line is that we are commanded by Christ to be baptized.
It's one simple decision: Obey or Deny obedience. Will we be obedient to Jesus' Word, or the words and traditions of men?
Simple.
I know that for me, being baptized as an infant did not change my life. I grew up without Christ in my heart. I was lost and wandering, thinking all the time that I was a Christian, because I was "Catholic". On the day I received Him as Savior, I knew I was agreeing to follow Him and obey what He said. In that first year, I found that many of the things I had been taught by the agents of the Vatican (Priests, Nuns, Docents, etc) was in contradiction to the simple and understandable Word of God. In the end, it was the Holy Spirit, not men, that led me away from the Roman church.
Bless you, in the name of the Son of God, the one endowed with ALL Authority from Heaven, Jesus Christ our Risen Savior. I hope that your indignation of being offended is not so strong, that you will ignore what I have said. But, don't take my word for it - Go and read the words of Christ.
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Scribe,
must speak truth, whether it offends or not.
If what you state is truth it would not offend.
It's one simple decision: Obey or Deny obedience. Will we be obedient to Jesus' Word, or the words and traditions of men?
Could you please clarify in what way I am failing to obey Jesus' Word?
Additionally could you please stick to the topic and not make your argument about me personally.
Thank you
Sharon.
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Sharon, you are taking my statements personally because you are personally offended, not because I intend to offend, nor because I am making my answers personal to you. Remember, this is about Bradley's question and there has been extensive dialogue on this topic. I believe we went through this topic approx 2009 as well and you and I had dialogue at that time also.
Your statement:
"If what you state is truth it would not offend."
My answer:
Sister, please go and read the Gospels. Jesus spoke truth to the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadduccees. They were so deeply offended that they had him crucified. Woe to them.
Your question:
"Could you please clarify in what way I am failing to obey Jesus' Word?"
My answer:
Sharon, you have been a consistent apologist for the Vatican's point of view here. You have failed to acknowledge, on any forum post that I have seen, when you have been proven wrong by Scripture*. You have even gone to the point of posting whole excerpts from Vatican publications here, some of them so long and detailed that it takes a scholar to track with them.
I do not know that you have failed to be baptized as an adult. However your lack of acknowledgments for the case that has been repeatedly made for adult [faith-obedient immersion] Baptism tells me that you have accepted completely that doctrine of the Roman Catholic church which engages fully the notion of sprinkling an infant, while failing to keep to the essential teaching of the meaning of Baptism. (eg, the act of obedience by a new follower of Jesus).
So, you are right, I don't know that you have never been baptized (as stated above, adult obedient baptism). However, I have published extensive explanations of my personal baptism. I have not seen that you have done so about yours. Instead, you have been an apologist for the traditions of the Vatican. That leads me to the obvious conclusion that you were either not an adult or not presented for a baptism.
You are right, it's not about you. It's about the principle of being obedient to the straight forward teachings of Jesus and his chosen 12 emissaries - the Apostles. He has a reason for the way that he has taught us to do this. We dare not forsake that for human tradition.
I bless you and repeat - it is not my intention to offend. The offense is a stone of stumbling for many. I pray not so for you. But understand: there are warnings in scripture, by Jesus himself and elsewhere for those who will repeatedly hear the truth and reject or explain it away. I write this for every one who will read it: be not deceived, God has given us a prescription for the faith, we disobey it at our own peril.
[Scripture: The Holy Bible, the canon of 66 books from Genesis to Revelation.]
Blessings and peace to you, in Jesus name my friend!
Scribe.
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Scribe,
Could you please show from Scripture where Jesus teaches that Christian parents who have their babies baptized into their Christian faith are being disobediant?
Sharon.
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No. I'm not making that case.
What case I am making, as you well know, is that people who claim to be disciples of Christ that fail to be baptized as a sign of their faith are being disobedient.
What case I am making, as has been stated here ad infinitem, is that dedicating children is fine, and good. However, we must not mistake that with the Baptizo (immersion) spoken of in scripture, for the believer - the one who has put faith in Jesus.
The other case I am making, as you well know, is that people who teach that this is not the clear and plain teaching of Jesus and the Apostles are being willfully disobedient to scripture - willfully choosing to obey men rather than God.
Take it or leave it. Sprinkle your kids. Great. But, sister, have you stood up and said "I am choosing to follow Jesus, according to his word, and I am going to be baptized for a public demonstration of that fact"?
You know very well that the case I am making is that an infant cannot be obedient by faith which it has not come to understand; and that it is not sufficient to obedience if someone else did it for you. Neither if by proxy as the Mormons do, nor if by ritual imposition as Catholics do.
You also know sister that the evidence of statistics is on my side: it shows overwhelmingly that a sprinkling ritual over an infant is no more guarantee of salvation than pouring rice crispies over a baby. The Roman Church has had a mass exodus of adults who were raised in that system, many of whom never return; many of whom become ardent antagonists against Roman Catholicism and against Christianity on the whole. So this magical formula breaks down severely - and we have ample statistics to prove it.
Baptism is a statement of faith, a public declaration that a person has chosen to follow Jesus, is consecrating themself to that message and is declaring that they have had a new birth of faith through Jesus.
The command to be baptized is for those who have believed. Failing to obey Christ in this first/primary Sacrament, by favoring the teachings of men, is to snub your nose at Christ. It is to raise the teachings of men above the Son of God. It is sin.
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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Scribe,
You said: " But, I must speak truth, whether it offends or not. "
I think Sharon has already answered you rather brillantly, But I just thought I'd pose you this question: Has it occoured to you that 'your truth' may not be The Truth?
After all, within the protestant world itsefl there are many of the so called 'primary and secondary' doctrines, which they fail to agree upon.
My reasoning is this: if non-catholics and non-orthodox disagree on so many issues, how can any of them claim to be 100% right on anything? We have to remember there is ONE Truth, right?
For this reason I am more and more inclined to stick to the apostolic teachings, which come from Christ.I was recently reading on the rapture, just to mention one example... And I was overwhelmed with the number of different 'doctrines' on this subject. It seems like since the 1800's the protestant denominations have gone completly mad about it and soooo many theories were created as a result. Now, after a couple of hundred years all those new-theories may sound very old and solid, but if you go back in time and really investigate what conservative protestants as well as the catholic church ( and the early church, as a matter of fact) believe, you will see that these newer evangelical and more fundamentalist christians have diverted completely from what christians believed for centuries....
Now this is my point about truth, do you think these folks who like to predict the end of time believe themselves to be liars and deceivers? Not really. For them they hold the thruth and the rest of the world is blind or in denial....
Cheers,
Yael
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Yael, you make some interesting points which lead back, exactly to where I started.
There is one truth and that is The Apostolic Doctrine: The New Testament of The Holy Bible. There are many interpretations of it, of which Catholic & Orthodox are two sets. I lean closer toward Orthodox in many cases, because more of their interpretation has been codified prior to the medieval confusion which came upon Rome. However, there are numerous reasons why both of them diverge from Scripture.
Scripture itself tells us that we are to obey scripture and hold it as our authority, alone and above all other doctrines, organizations or affiliations. Failing to do so puts us in exactly the same predicament as the Pharisees and Sadduccees.
A good example is all of these end times posers, such as Mr. Camping, who have lost their way - if they ever had it. As David V recently shared here on the forum, with the picture of the billboard - Jesus explicit said no man knows the day or the hour. This is reserved for the Father alone.
Moreover, Jesus specifically warned us not to follow false prophets and winds and waves of doctrine. We ought to all be seeking the truth of scripture and exhorting others to do the same. Let's not get caught on the doctrines of mortals.
Yael, are you saying that a person who has chosen to follow Christ ought not to be baptized, in obedience to the scripture? Is that what you are saying?
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Dear Brother Scribe,
You have a gift, sir.............. of witnessing for Christ.
What a beautiful, loving post to Sharon. You make words of Scripure come alive and envelop premises of partition that are raised regularly to believers in the journey.
I, also sprinkled as an infant (Lutheran), received the saving grace of Jesus Christ later as an adult. I WANTED TO BE IMMERSED
AND TO IDENTIFY MYSELF AS ONE OF HIS.
When I called my mother to tell her of my good news, she "blew her stack", and didn`t talk to me for several weeks.
Scribe, I just cannot understand how a person who claims to be one of His, will not follow through by going down into the depths of baptism in His name. It seems that people try to justify to themselves, in all kinds of ways and reasons why they "don`t have to".
Is it that they just don`t WANT TO? ...........Then, if that`s the case, WHY NOT?
I`m going to keep praying for all those I know of.
Grace and Peace.
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Richard, I think it's fear. In my case I deeply feared being rejected by my family and associates. What I had to do was resolve to come to the place where I was willing to accept rejection by everyone for the name of Christ. The Holy Spirit empowered me to be resolute, willing to sacrifice family, friends and all things for the sake of Christ. The only regret I have is that I was not more resolute.
What happened for me was that I truly had a "new birth" through the waters of baptism. I began to witness more clearly, search scripture more deeply, stand more boldly; because Christ gave me the gift of resolve. Sometimes I wish I could go back and do it again;) In the end, all that I feared came to pass. I became an outcast, but glory to God, some chose to seek Christ. I continue to pray for the rest. There is nothing more fulfilling than to stand at the baptism of someone who has heard your witness, been transformed by Christ and then stood to be baptized in front of you.
Thanks for your encouragement, all glory goes to Christ. He gives me strength and life. As John's Gospel says - without Him I can do nothing, without Him I am nothing.
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