Once saved always saved?

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 7, 2011 at 1:56pm

You are equating changing what one believes as being the same as one being given liberty to choose which path. These are not the same thing. One can recognize their sin as sin only after God has revealed it as such, but they can choose the darkness over the light. Their mind still knows the difference between right and wrong, they simply choose sin over God.  You like math. In 4th grade I leardned the multiplication table. From fourth grade on I knew that 7x7=49. This was hidden to me in 2nd grade, but after 4th grade that truth is forever entrenched. Yet, even with that truth I can choose to write 7x7=94. The answer is wrong, but I can choose to answer wrong ... or right. In 2nd grade 94 might have seemed plausible, but after 4th I could only write 94 if I chose to rebel against the system, for the only right answer is 49.

 

I can add that I did not learn initially that 7x7=49. I had to learn that 3x3=9, 4x4=16, etc. There was a process that led me to 12x12=144 and the satisfaction that I had completed the times table. Where are you in your spiritual times table? 3x3? 5x5? or are you rebelling when you know the right answer but choose to insist on a different answer?

 

We can only make choices based on the light we have been given. God reveals and we respond to this new understanding/knowledge.

 

HEB 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 7, 2011 at 3:27pm

Hahaha ... 12x12? This is not about me, but you and your walk with Him through grace.

 

Changing dresses is not changing your mind in this context at all. That is making a new selection at the given moment. God has already changed your mind. You have embraced grace and that is what keeps you coming back. Your old habits and ways still seek to snare you, but the major work has already been done. Now you have to work on the input and the walk that aligns with this new knowledge and freedom, not to earn the love, but because you love Him.

 

Regarding the path. You can choose the path, but the mind still knows the correct one. You  cannot change the truth, but can only make a selection based on what you already know to be true according to the light you have been given. You can choose Light or darkness, alignment or sin. Note, not every choice is so stark in contrast, but many are.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 7, 2011 at 4:35pm

Making a new decision is not changing your mind (knowledge). Our minds are changed when we recieve new or fuller truth, for truth does not change. Most often this change occurs because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

You are still equating making a different choice (selection) and a changed mind as being the same thing, when they simply are not. The past is gone and if you put on a red dress and then change it for a blue dress you have not changed knowledge or understanding, you have simply made a new in time decision to wear currently the red dress. It was not a change of mind, but a selection. The same is true regarding the path you are on. It is simply a selection. Knowledge that ccauses a change int he mind can lead us to a path change or a person may just be fickle and select the other path without a change occuring in the mind beside making a selection.

 

Let me ask you this. If you put on the blue dress and then change into the red dress, did you wear the blue dress? This is about selection, not change of mind in the context of knowldege and understanding.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 7, 2011 at 4:54pm

In the context of God, His Word and His ways it is His Holy Spirit who does change the mind, not you or me. When God changes your mind you begin to change your choices. Before your mind is changed you cannot know God or choose to live for Him, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

You are talking day to day choices that are a result of what we currently know and understand and I am talking radical change in knowledge and understanding that affects our choices.

 

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 7, 2011 at 6:58pm

What does the Bible say about finding God. Not what do you say or feel or do i say or think. What does the Bible say?

 

JN 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

MT 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

 

LK 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

 

RO 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

 

RO 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

RO 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

RO 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

RO 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

 

1CO 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 8, 2011 at 3:17pm

Amanda,

 

What do you understand repentance to mean?

 

 

Permalink Reply by Dennis Henson David on April 7, 2011 at 8:52pm

We all know.. that God is the creator of all things..Everything is subjected to Him..Even time and space.. He can see all things and know all things... He can see Alpha and Omega (beginning and end at a single moment) And He can changes that in his power and will.. let's have have an example.. judas who betrays Jesus, his betrayal of Jesus was written even before he was born... Does it means he have no choice but to do it and suffer for it...Is there an injustices there??? No.. because in his appointed time and free will he had chosen to do it..and God in His power have seen that happening even before the foundation of the earth.. because everything happens and can see those events simultenously..So everyone who chooses to follow Jesus.. God in His power have seen all of it at a single moment and knows the intent of their hearts..So as apostle Paul says We are pre destined even from the foundation of the earth..Because there is no time and space with God...So if you are really saved and accepted Lord Jesus as your personal saviour(baptism of repentance, we acknowledge that thru water baptism) God the father will seal your Salvation With His Holy Spirit( baptism of Fire, Holy Spirit)... remember what John the baptist said..I baptise you with water(Calling for repentance).. but one will come after me..Much greater than me.. for He was before me..He will baptise you with Spirit and fire..Jesus said.. No one can snatch them of my Father's hand..

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 8, 2011 at 3:15pm

Hey Michelle,

 

As before, we disagree on this one. I too don't wish to rehash all of it again.

 

Lord BLess,

LT

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on April 12, 2011 at 11:20pm

 

Michelle your quote "There is no scriptural basis for 'Once Saved, Always Saved'..." is an absolutist statement that is, can be and has been proven false for centuries. 

 

You may believe that you can lose your salvation, you may believe I can lose mine. That is your opinion and you have a right to it until the Lord changes your mind. But, to make the statement, as you have, is to call the word of God a liar, and to call your brothers and sisters stupid. Argue from scripture all you want, and I will do the same. I see no basis to conclude that anyone can "lose" their salvation after nearly 30 years of reading and studying scripture.

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on April 14, 2011 at 8:18pm

Michelle, let's start with where you and I agree!

1. We agree on the essentials of Christ, that He is Savior and Lord.

2. We agree that there are consequences to sin.

Okay, good. In my opinion, how you see this issue will completely color and shape all of your life and your relationships.

That being said:

I am utterly convinced, after reading scripture in at least 6 English translations, and reading large portions of the Greek and Hebrew (by direct word for word and concept for concept translations in interlinear translations and scholarly interpretations from across the theological spectrum), that Scripture itself is very clear that there are consequences to sin, but that you cannot “lose salvation.” As I have read it and as I have studied the writings of many scholars for nearly 30 years, it is clear to me that this issue is abundantly and unequivocally settled by scripture.

Furthermore, I am convinced that most of the people who do not understand what I have just said are those who have not studied to that depth. God's word itself speaks of assurance for the true believer; and It speaks of warning and danger for those who do not trust in God or his Word. I did not come to this conclusion because of any personal bias, but because this is what God's word says. I did that level of research because I was at one time very clueless and was prey to cultists who teach many divergent concepts based on private interpretations and doctrines built on verses taken out of context.

Let me deal with some of the things you are quoting:

First: Notice what James does NOT say: he does not use the word HELL. He says “death”.

>>James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".      ( I am not saying that Christians cannot backslide, I'm saying that a true Christian who backslides is not going to Hell – rather they are going to reap what they sow in this life; and they may forfeit reward.)

Second: Hebrews is a book written to First Century Jews, about their decision to go back to Temple worship under the Old Covenant. You must keep that in mind when reading the entire book. The arguments made there are written to 1st Century Jews in a typical Rabbinical style – using heavy rhetorical style; teaching that poses hyperbole in the same way that Jesus poses hyperbole in Matthew 5-7. The issue of this statement is about failing to have belief that the New Covenant in Christ's blood is sufficient to save you.

>>Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief indeparting from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

The “departing” mentioned here is exhaustively described in the preceding 9 chapters as failing to place faith in Jesus as The Messiah and the architect of a New Covenant. You must not take this book out of context, it tells you that in the first 4 chapters. Ironically, what you do not quote is Hebrews 10:22 which speaks of the assurance of faith in Christ. “let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience ...”

Third: 1 Timothy 1:19 does NOT say “Lost their Salvation”, it says “faith...shipwrecked...”. 

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".   Did Paul know something about shipwrecks? Yes. He spent quite a while on Malta as a result of one. Did his life or ministry end there? Nope. It was stalled and challenged. But it continued and grew. In the same way a person may shipwreck their faith, rendering themselves out of use for the Kingdom for a time, by walking in sin. Perhaps even stay in broken lives forever. That does not mean they are LOST and doomed to hell. 

Fourth: >>Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".   This is also NOT saying “they will go to hell”, it is saying “drift away”. I have ministered to a good number of people and known many more in the last 30 years that have drifted away. Some of them have shipwrecked their faith and drifted away into very broken lives. The ones who were really Christians came back. So... are they going to Hell? According to the Word, that is only if they did not have true faith in Christ to begin with.

Note, read the selection you have used:
>> Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live". This does not say anything about losing salvation, it's about walking in the Spirit.

>>1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

       This one also requires that you understand the actual context of the epistle. John is writing to the Gentile church in a time when it was under siege by Gnostic heresy. The feature of Gnosticism was that they did not believe in a “Sin” nature and they did not believe that you could have a personal relationship with God through Christ. Furthermore, they did not believe that Jesus came as a real human being.

        As you learn this context, it makes the point of the entire book clear. John was warning about heresy, which he states in 1 John 2:7 “I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world.” and then he makes this interesting statement “Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.” (1 John 2:8) Do you see that? He's not concerned about believers losing salvation, but rather they may lose their reward. We know it's not salvation, because he says it is something that is a “work” and you and I know that you cannot work for salvation. No person works for their own salvation or that of any other. Christ alone has done that perfect work. 

     What John concluded by saying was very clear: “ I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13) The way the Greek is constructed there makes it crystal clear, beyond a shadow of doubt that he is saying this is a possession that the believer has; not may have, not may keep, not may get back, but HAS – eternal life. He wanted the believers to KNOW they were not among those who were heretical. 

Next: 
>>1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the  faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".        In this one, the statements here are about collective groups. Many groups have fallen away from the true faith, especially in these times. But that does not mean that individuals in those groups who were saved have lost salvation. It usually means they leave those apostate groups to find churches where the truth is taught. 

Next: 
>>Deuteronomy 8:11 "Take care that you do not forget the Lord your God, by failing to keep his commandments, his ordinances, and his statutes, which I am commanding you today".     This scripture is OLD COVENANT. It is not the same as the covenant of Jesus – Please read the Book of Hebrews, all the way through, in it's context to understand that there is a New Covenant in Jesus.

>>John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, You do not want to go away also, do you? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".   Clearly, these were not saved people who departed, and the ones who stayed were saved. But, understand that they may have become saved later.

>>2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".    I do not believe that any truly saved person could truly and permanently deny Christ. But, understand that Peter did and was restored, not condemned.

I'm going to skip down to this one, because it is my absolute favorite passage of Scripture: 
>>John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".       Read the whole thing. Jesus says later that He has kept ALL of those that the Father gave him except the one who was prophesied to reject and betray Him. You see, Judas was never saved. He had Jesus drawing all that time, but Judas never understood.

You said: >>“he wants you to follow him and be obedient to him your entire life”.   I dare you to truly perfectly obey Jesus for an entire day. Following Jesus is a lifestyle for a lifetime, but I have never known of one single person that did so perfectly! NONE of the Apostles did. None of them. Paul admits so on several occasions. Peter clearly violated Jesus commands on numerous occasions, even when he had a heavenly vision to reaffirm Jesus teaching.

You said: >>”They must be followed your entire Christian life; right up till the time you take your very last breath.      But, if you are hoping to perfectly obey Jesus until your very last breath, I have news for you! Thinking this way will make you miserable and unfruitful. It is not how the Apostles lived. You must understand that Jesus has nailed all of your offenses to his cross. He has ended your judgment, if you will simply trust in Him. He keeps you, if you are saved. 

 

Backwards to Hebrews:

As I said before, you are taking this out of context. This is talking about rejecting the atonement of Christ as sufficient for your sins. What is says here is “if you try to cover your sins with the blood of lambs and goats, you ARE LOST. Not that you had salvation that could be lost by acts of sin. 
  >> Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:29 "How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenantby which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?"

        What covenant? The one that Jesus paid for in his own blood. You see, Israel was granted a bridge of the two covenants during that time. When they rejected that, they rejected GOD. They spurned the blood of Christ. Gentiles never had the Old Covenant in the first place.

And finally, your quote from: >>1 Chronicles 28:9 "If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever".          This is also out of context. This is to ISRAEL under the OLD COVENANT. Please Please Please read the entire book of Hebrews, realizing it was to the Jews who were rejecting the atonement of Christ as sufficient for salvation will completely unlock the meanings that you are missing.

My summary: 

Here is the modern application to the Book of Hebrews: there is one “unforgivable sin” that is mentioned by Jesus, by the Book of Hebrews and by John in 1^st John. That is the only sin that cannot be repented of: to say that the blood of Christ is insufficient to save you. (to Reject Christ as Savior) Period. There is no other sin that can keep you from Him. 

 

Jesus said: “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.” (Matt 12:31) What was the context? The Scribes and Pharisees were rejecting Christ, despite the conviction of the Holy Spirit attesting to Him fulfilling the prophesies of Messiah. They could see the truth, but rejected him. This is the same thing as anyone today reading Scripture but deliberately ignoring that Jesus has pronounced forgiveness.

Jesus final statement about humanity, on the cross, was that the debt was paid IN FULL. IN TOTAL. FINISHED. (John Ch 19) This is translated two ways “paid in full” or “it is finished”. The word in the Greek is “Tetelestai” and it is a legal term meaning “paid in full, no debt remains”.

 

So, when you say that a Christian can lose, what was already paid for in full by Jesus, you are saying:

a) The Scripture is not true

b) The Bible is not clear

c) that you do not understand it

If you say there is any debt still to be paid for sin, then you are arguing with Jesus, not me.

Clearly, as you read scripture in context, you must see that Salvation is not earned, nor kept by human merit or effort. It is only earned by Christ's atonement. The Scripture teaches nothing else. 

 

~Scribe

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on April 14, 2011 at 9:13pm

Scribe -

 

Excellent work my brother. The truth is so beautiful.

 

Michelle –

 

I love you sis. Pray about this posts and surrender to the truth even if it means change. I know you love God deeply and I know you have no problem changing views if you are shown the truth with scripture beloved. Scribe has done that and others have done it as well, please sister - look at the post with an open heart.

 

Blessings

 

Family check out this discussion :

Losing Salvation?

http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/losing-salvation

 

 

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on April 15, 2011 at 8:02am

Love you sis. But you know that already.

 

We have discussed this here issue many times and we remain family, so it’s all good beloved. Love and blessings to you and hubby. :)

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