WHAT ARE WE HEARING IN CHURCH?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 17, 2011 at 7:08am

Rita,

 

The gospel message is not complete if sin is not dealt with. We need to know that we are originally sinners destined to hell and in need of a Savior. We need to know not only what we are being saved from, but to Whom we are being saved (Jesus). One of the greatest gifts God ever gave to me was the day I realized I was a sinner destined to hell. This is part of the gospel message.

 

Now, a preacher can focus on the law or specifically teach legalism and in doing so keep people in bondage instead of seeing them set free. The goal of the gospel is to reveal man's need and lead Him to new-birth in Christ.

 

If one teaches the whole counsel of God they will teach about hell as well and the reality of it. I just finished three messages that deal with "The Lostness of Man" and "The Truth About Salvation." These two Biblical doctrines go together to complete the gospel (good news).

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on March 17, 2011 at 8:38am

LT,

I agree completely but...that doesn't need to be all that is preached. In the particular church that I attend, most of the people that attend are born again Christians (about 15 or so). However, they hear the same sermon over and over again. Or something similar. In other words, they are kept on a very short rope. They hear about the law part of the bible over and over even though they need to hear more about the meat of the Word which is the Good New of Jesus Christ.

I can tell just by reading what you say in here that you lead your congregation to the very depths of the Word. However, there are preachers that need to get the leading of the Holy Spirit before they get in the pulpit.

 

What I am trying to say is that many people that try church and decide to play golf instead, are hearing the same Old Testament teaching that they've heard dozens of times before. If they aren't led to sample the good things of God, they will never realize that there is more to be seen and learned.

 

If even unbelievers can actually see the results of New Testament teachings, they will be more than willing to get their feet wet.

I have had construction workers in my home this week and one of the responses that I heard was that preachers do this. I am only trying to share the thoughts of this man whom I suspect (but don't know) is unsaved.

 

I also think that many of the unsaved know they are rejecting Christ, and the reason for it is because when they tried church, all they heard was the hellfire part without the blessings part.

Blessings to you brother,

Rita

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 17, 2011 at 9:06am

Rita,

 

We are in agreement. I posted my comments for clarity. Some preachers go to far in the other direction and will never mention sin or the blood. There has to be balance.

 

Also, I have learned over the years that many people will tell you that all  the church does is such-and-such ... when in fact they only believe this because someone told them that is what the church does. Often, if questioned, you will find that they have not had such exposure, but simply believe what others have told them. We live in a time, in the U.S. at least, where most of the under 40 group have never even been in church except for a wedding or funeral. Food for thought.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 17, 2011 at 9:28am

Rita

 

There should be balance in the message beloved. Though at times God wants us to only touch on one side of His word to drive the point home, Pastors should balance the message.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on March 17, 2011 at 8:42am

Afterthought:

The reason that I posted this topic is to get people to respond to what they are hearing in church.

:)

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 17, 2011 at 9:07am

Rita,

 

I apologize if I side-tracked your posting. Hopefully people will respond to your question.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on March 17, 2011 at 10:56am

LT,you didn't side track it at all.

I am simply asking to see if others are having the same problems (that I am) that they are listening too.

:)

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Permalink Reply by John Lemmon on March 17, 2011 at 4:53pm

Hi Rita,

You are correct when you say you need to hear the gospel and not the law. Galatians 3:23-25 says that the law was the custodian or the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. We were confined under law until faith should be revealed. But now that faith in Jesus Christ has come we are no longer under a custodian.

The church at large needs to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, but as LT rightly pointed out, that too means there will be some hellfire and damnation preached as well. When you read Revelation, there is plenty of hellfire and damnation and that is part of the New Covenant. What is needed is balance in the teaching of God's word. If all you are getting is hellfire and damnation then there is no balance.

I have a friend who was bound under a law based teaching and suffered in condemnation because of it. But when he heard the message of Christ and fully understood the release that Jesus offers, his life was completely transformed. Christ is the answer and that is what we need to teach and preach. It is what we need to demand of our teachers, preachers and pastors.

We should not forget either that just because someone holds the title of "Pastor" they cannot be questioned over what they teach. Ultimately they are accountable to the Lord, but they are also commissioned by him to feed his sheep. If they are teaching anything that is contrary to sound doctrine they need to be brought to account. Likewise if their teaching is always on the same topic, there is a need for change. You can't live on a diet of only one food, and you cannot grow in Christ unless the food you get can bring you to maturity. The matter should be discussed by the elders of the church for a decision on how to deal with the matter. It is the elders responsibility to ensure sound doctrine is taught and to confute those who contradict it. (Titus 1:9) If you are concerned, take the matter up with the elders of the church.

As for why people are not coming to the churches, we must understand that not everyone will come. The parable of the sower shows there are basically four types of people who will hear the word. One group will have it snatched away immediately. One group will come to church but have it strangled by the cares and pleasures of the world. One group will come along but fall away when things get to hot or hard to handle. And finally one group will grow and flourish in the word. It is a shame that this is the case, but it is the Lord's work and we cannot save anyone. Only Jesus saves and only he draws those who are his to himself. The best we can do is be prepared to give a good account of the Lord and the gospel to any that come our way as we don't know which of the four groups they may belong to. The Lord knows those who are his and he will lead them to the places they can get the nourishment they need.

Finally, I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it this way, but don't ever "rate" your pastor (OK...I'm being a bit pedantic about this...sorry). Never measure any person, whether a pastor or not, against another person. As Paul said, "...when they measure themselves by one another, and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding." (2 Corinthians 10:12) We are all different. Pastors are different. And we all have something different to offer. We do not know how the Lord is working with ourselves most of the time, so how can we know what he is doing with others? I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I thought it necessary to bring this point forward for the sake of wisdom and others who may read this forum. We are all equals in Christ regardless of position, status or gifts that God may have given us. None is any better and none is any worse. We stand in Christ only through the grace of God and the only righteousness we have is that which is given by God. The only rating that matters is how he will rate us on the day of judgement.

All the best.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 17, 2011 at 6:17pm

Great post brother John.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on March 19, 2011 at 6:03am

Hi John,

I am answering your post, hopefully without causing a to-do about the topic. 

First of all, I do not consider The Revelation of Jesus Christ to be part of the New Covenant. It is the end of the Bible, explaining the last days. The players, after the 3rd Chapter are nonbelievers, and not protected under the New Covenant.

 

I have no intention of upsetting our church in any way. Undoubtedly, the members of the church agree with the way he is preaching. I am not rating him so much, nor trying to tear him down. I am simply tired of hearing the same  thing preached without the attributes of God being preached as well.

 

My concern is based on what the other members are hearing. (I do my own studying, am am constantly learning about the New Covenant.) 

 

In my little church, there isn't any teaching going on, except for teaching what will happen to you if you sin. Now,

based on the teachings in the New Testament, once a person is a *born again believer*, there is no condemnation.

So my question is....why preach condemnation? From my POV, it seems like there would be more growth teaching the good things of God, and the blessings one receives as a follower of God.  There would have to be teaching on various things, such as the problems a person could run into, because we are not free of disappointment and sadness. And we need to be taught to handle that. But, I think that a person needs to be taught about God's goodness and mercy, and what He has actually provided us with.

 

I don't know if this has explained my position any better, but I pray it has.

Blessings to you and yours,

Rita

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Permalink Reply by John Lemmon on March 19, 2011 at 2:55pm

Hi Rita,

You make some excellent points here. The book of Revelation is indeed about the end times and is given to us so we can understand and know what is coming. To that extent I agree it is not part of the New Covenant. However it does show the outcomes for those who follow the truth of the covenants as compared to those who do not. Many of the prophecies back up those in the OT, especially Daniel. But there are also teachings that are quite specific to the New Covenant as well. If you consider the foundation teachings of Christianity as defined in Hebrews 6:1-2, two of those foundations are to do with resurrection and eternal judgement. Revelation is one of the best sources of knowledge (not the only one) about those two foundation teachings, especially as they relate to the first and second resurrections and the final judgement when we will all stand before the throne (Rev 20).

But you are right. There must be a balance in the teaching from the platform. Hellfire and damnation must be tempered with teachings of freedom in Christ, release from sin, compassion, joy in the holy spirit and what we need to do to walk as Christ walked. Hellfire and damnation is a bit like advertising on TV to try and stop people doing things like driving dangerously or to quit smoking through fear campaigns. It works for some, but not for all. Others need the carrot, not the stick. If a person is bound in sin and desperate for release, can preaching about their ultimate damnation bring them to Christ? It wouldn't work for me.

I'm not suggesting you should upset the church and I apologise if it sounded that way. What I was offering was the scriptural approach to address an issue. As I said, it is the elders of the church who are responsible for ensuring the doctrine is sound and they should be consulted if there are any concerns. Have you spoken to the other members about your concerns? Never assume that silence is acceptance. Some people just don't want confrontation and don't want to stand out from the crowd. If you are concerned for their sake, just tentatively ask around to see what they think or feel about the message being proclaimed.

Then there is always Plan B... I'm a big believer in Plan B. If Plan A fails you always gotta have a Plan B.  :-)

I don't know what your position is within your church group, but could you offer your services to the church to teach? Have you considered running a weekly Bible study, under the eldership of the church of course, with others who are like minded. That may be a way of ensuring the people are getting a broader understanding of the scriptures rather than just hellfire and damnation. I do a fair bit of bible teaching and the best thing about it is that you learn a lot yourself. I've read quite a number of your posts on AAG and you have a good grasp of the scriptures, so if you have not considered doing some ministry with your church, perhaps you could. Perhaps you could offer the other side of the hellfire and damnation discussion so that the members are upbuilt.

You are on the right track. We all need to be reminded of the good things that God has provided through Jesus Christ. The blessings are many and enormous. The gifts he has provided in abundance such as grace, peace, joy, righteousness, the holy spirit and life need to be preached and taught. Not to forget the greatest gift of all, Jesus Christ himself ("For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten Son...").

As for the "rating" business, I did say I didn't think you were trying to "score" your pastor but I wasn't sure if all the readers of the forum might see it that way. I'm glad that was cleared up.

Keep up the good work and keep plugging away. There's always Plan C... whatever that is... :-)

All the best,

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on March 21, 2011 at 5:06am

Hi John.

Thanks for your answer. 

I actually taught Bible Study in that church a number of years ago. And it was quite successful. Then I had to stop for a time because of throat surgery. When I wanted to start back, the people who once came, would come no longer. The biggest problem was that they couldn't understand me. There was an issue about cancelling some Wednesday nights because it wasn't convenient for someone, usually the pastor. He finally took it back over and cancelled it for good.

I probably should seek another church but my children go there and I can't throw my children to the *wolves*. They wouldn't think of leaving as the preacher is my daughter's father in law.

At least I can discuss what they hear and what is wrong with the teaching and know they are hearing the truth.

I know you are probably thinking what I have thought in the past. Leave that church. But still I hesitate. Foolish maybe, but....maybe there is yet a remedy. I continue to study God's Word, and to continually learn from what I study.

I also share with my children what I learn.

I have a certain camaraderie with the pastor's wife and am even able to get things across to her. I don't know if it will help the situation or not. Time will tell.

Teach the attributes of the Holy Spirit is important to me. But I feel we should take them to heart and learn from them.

Regeneration of our minds to be in accord with our spirit is vital, and not an easy task. I especially try to accomplish that but it is a slow process, and one that my soul doesn't appreciate. But I will get there.

Blessings to you John.

Rita

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