If you believe you can lose your salvation, please take time to illustrate how a person can lose their salvation by making it applicable to the believer today.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Robert Browning on March 4, 2011 at 7:37pm

Amanda, please Read: Mathew 28:16-20, and if you are sure what scripture is saying, in short Jesus told us to spread the word to every nation.  And Jesus is my Boss....

God Bless,

Robert

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 4, 2011 at 6:08pm

Well here is where I differ from some. I believe God brings us to that point, but man can choose darkness over light. God does not make us, but He provides everything that is needed to those who are called.

 

Not everyone will have the opportunity to be saved, thus not everyone is called. Salvation requires the gospel message and God has chosen to use man to present that message (Rom. 10). Many die everyday that have never heard the message and been faced with the truth in order for them to be saved.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 4, 2011 at 6:32pm

We must recognize that no one deserves heaven. All of us deserve hell. That is the starting point. That is the condition of man.God created man and Jesus died so that those who come by grace through faith may be saved. This number is small in comparison to all of humankind. This is a just act of a holy God. God treats His children, the born-again, from the Father's heart.

 

Your last paragraph only God can answer.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 17, 2011 at 4:21pm

LB,

 

You are back to writting novels ... :-(

 

I will endeavor to address each point as time allows, but before I do that I can say this after a quick scan.

 

You present salvation as simply a cleaning up of the old person and now that you have been dusted off you must walk the line that you could not walk before. We will struggle to agree on the after salvation issues until we come to an agreement on what truly takes place at salvation, if we can. Born-again means transformation. We experience justification and regeneration. We literally are not the same person spiritually that we were before. We were a child of the world and we become a child of God. This new relationship changes all of the dynamics of God's dealing with us. He becomes our Father in heaven and we His child. There is a difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. This new covenant is by grace through faith and dependant on Christ's work once we surrender to Him. He is the author and perfecter of our faith. He is the High priest who has made sacrifice for us, once for all. He is interceding for us. We have the Holy Spirit to guide and convict. The law of God (Christ) is now written on our hearts. Please undestand, I am not frustrated (that is not me) I am trying to emphasize the difference. The new relationship is unbreakable when it is a real transformation from lost to found, from dead to alive. This is radically different than what was in the old covenant given to Israel.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 18, 2011 at 6:58am

LB,

 

Dear LT I did write a novel, and I apologize!  Thank you for reminding me to keep it short...the real problem is getting my emotions to calm down when discussing something that is so compelling.

One reason I do not like novels is that it requires verifying whether a particular paragraph is a standalone comment or linked to the next or fourth paragraph down. How much is this concept thread through the document? In other words I do not respond to line-by-line, but try to get the gist of the whole document and then the particular comment and examine whether it is linked to the whole or portions of the document and so forth.

 

But we do agree on one thing.  You said "This new covenant is by grace through faith and dependant on Christ's work once we surrender to Him."  Surrender means to yield to the power, control, or possession of another upon compulsion or demands.  That is talking about willful and willing submission!  Salvation depends upon our obedience!

We agree on surrender, but disagree on it application regarding this topic. I will explain. You see surrender related to being saved and remaining saved through work (obedience). You see it as one continuous surrender that all of your salvation hangs on. I see it as two separate surrenders. Salvation is God’s gift to us. The Father calls us to the Son and the Son reveals the Father. It is by grace through faith, both actually supplied by God. We come to the point of decision and either surrender to Him and are saved or we reject Him and remain destined to hell. The justification (and regeneration) take place because of the grace, faith and surrender unto salvation. The person becomes a new creation, sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now, how will this new child of God live? Will they align with God’s Word and walk in obedience which requires surrender of will and embracing His will. Or will they become rebellious or stubborn? There is a second surrender and it is found in the sanctification process, growing in experiential holiness. This second surrender does not change our position as a family member, but affects our usefulness to the King. Obedience means living in alignment with God. Disobedience means that our Father in heaven will apply divine discipline. The word discipline in its root meaning deals with bending and conforming. It deals with developing a way of life. A person surrendered will live a disciplined life.

 

Thus, the totality of biblical salvation has three components.

Justification: (including regeneration): Born again and saved.

Sanctification: Positional (Holy and righteous because of His holiness and righteousness that has been imputed into us at regeneration). Experiential (Our earthly life lived out surrendered to and in alignment with Jesus.) 

Glorification: Dealing with the resurrection.

 

Now these make up the whole of our salvation, but we are saved eternally from hell and unto God in the justification/regeneration act of God.

 

The New Testament uses the words "obey, obedience, obedient" to show our responsibility to God even after we are saved.  Paul asked if we knew that to whom we yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants we are to whom we obey?  Obedience is everything!  We are not Christ's servants unless and until we are willing to be obedient.  Yeild!  Surrender you will to God's will!

Again, this fits into the understanding of the totality of salvation. I have never said that there is not a right way to live after one is saved. In fact I get a little (a lot) irritated when people toss out the ridiculous concept that OSAS (which I dislike the term) teaches get saved and then party away, live like the devil … you are saved. That is just foolishness and ignorance.

 

But if we disobey Christ, and instead willingly obey the lusts of the flesh, and the desires of the mind, we are again become the servants of sin!  We cannot serve two masters.  We must choose this day and every day whom we shall serve, and take up our cross daily, and not halt between two opinions (sin? Obedience?) or think we can always sit on the fence and serve both sin and Christ forever, can we?

We become tainted with sin. Now for clarity I am not minimizing sin, but its affect on the justified/regenerated child of God. Here is another poor illustration that I like.

 

Before we are saved we cannot reflect the light of God. We are dark. The light is shinning on us as God is seeking to reach us, but we do not reflect His light. When we become a child of God we become like a mirror. The light of God reflects off of us and onto others. When we are walking in His will the light is reflected quite well because the mirror is clean. When we, the children of God, sin it is like putting a little dirt on the mirror. If we continue to sin and do not repent more and more dirt is added to the surface of the mirror until the light no longer reflects off of us. The mirror is still the mirror, but is not usable for what is was created for until the dirt (sin) is dealt with externally. This concept is seen in John 13 as well. They only needed their feet washed. Some say Jesus also washed Judas feet, but He qualified the action by saying in John 13:10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you."

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 17, 2011 at 8:39pm

LB,

 

Dear LT when you said "This deviation will cause people to not continue in the growth process," that is certainly true, but are you considering the worse results of being led down a path that does not glorify God?

What is the worst results? You see hell’s fires waiting for the born-again person. I see a horrible existence that leads to life in a pig-pen and can lead to physical death. But, wait … they are in sin, don’t they deserve hell? Not if they repented (change of mind) and have been born-again, because in the transformation I am saved because of the righteousness and holiness of Christ that has been imputed into me once His blood is applied. My righteousness and holiness can add nothing to me being saved, born-again.

 

Do you remember the Jim Jones cult that committed mass suicide 33 years ago?  That is one example that comes to mind that ended a lot worse than many others, but it illustrates that when someone claims divine anointing and preaches from the Bible (the parts that suit their false doctrine!) the results can be devastating.

Absolutely, people died physically. Do you know that all went to hell? Are you ready to make that proclamation? Conversely I don’t know if any were children of God or just religious people. The born-again do not depend on self to remain saved, but there sure are consequences for disobedience, like potentially experiencing physical death.

 

Some false teachers in the Bible subverted entire families, Paul said.  "Subvert" means to overthrow someone's foundation, so it is clear that sinners (who have no foundation of faith in Christ) are not the ones being subverted, but Christians.  A false teacher can destroy the faith of the Christian who follows him!

Acts 15 reveals that Scripture does not mean complete destruction and loss of position. In fact it speaks to their minds were being disturbed by the errant teaching. In verse 23 the council writes the letter calling them brethren. If they are lost then they are no longer brethren. You could say that only some, but no, because that is the whole reason for the council meeting. Some Jews had went out trying to force them to be circumcised and they were confused about what to do. The council was instructing them how to live the right way in the new covenant, because

2 Timothy 2:14 Teaches them to avoid petty controversies over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.

Titus 1:11, what are they subverting?

 

Other false teachers in the Bible sought to put Christians back under the law, and Paul said it would cause them to build again the things that they had destroyed (the works of the Law of Moses!).  Paul said a person who believes and lives according to such doctrines is fallen from grace, and without grace there is no salvation.  We are saved by grace!  We are lost without grace.

 You are separating a few verses from the whole context of Galatians. When read in context it is clear that Paul is refuting the claims of the false teachers and the value of legalism.

 

Other false teachers in the Bible taught Christians to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication (as Jezebel did among the Chrisitans at Thyatira).  Fornication is sin!  A false teacher can lead people back into sin!

 Can a Christian sin? Does it mean DEATH or discipline once the transformation has taken place and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit? There are consequences for sin, but not loss of the new birth.

 

John said he that commits sin is of the devil, and Paul said no fornicator has eternal life in him.  It seems painfully obvious to me that our salvation is so precious that God, throughout the New Testament, warns us to keep ourselves from sin and from anything that would lead us back into sin.

John also said that if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. He goes on to say if we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. Sin has consequences and we are called to holy living. 

 

The problem is sin.  Christians are not sinners, but if they are told that sin is not as serious a matter as before (now that they are saved) and that it is much easier for God to overlook their sin (now that they are a son or daughter), then we are somehow making sin nicer than it really is.  And I cannot find a scripture anywhere in the Bible that does that.  Doesn't God still hate sin?

God hates sin just as much after we are saved as he did before. The difference is simply on who the judicial penalty of the sin rests. Jesus died for us. The rebellious will be disciplined, but His sacrifice stands.

 

Doesn't sin still separates us from God?  If we backslide so far from God that our sins are no longer errors, or the result of our weaknesses, but are willful sins--why must God still forgive us?  That is the line a person must cross in order to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and cause Him to depart forever: willful sin.

Sin can break our fellowship for as long as it lasts, but not our relationship. We don’t lose the family name. You assume a person can backslide to a point that all of a sudden “Oh no, they crossed the line.” We are kept by Christ and when needed disciplined by Christ.

 

A person is saved when the Holy Spirit deals with their heart to repent of their sins against God and man!  There is no salvation apart from the presence of the Holy Spirit, who Paul calls "the Spirit of grace" because nobody gets the grace of God by any other means!

Yes, transformation is a work of the Holy Spirit.

 

So after we are saved from our past sins, born again as a child of God, washed and sanctified through faith in Jesus' blood, and by his Word and his Spirit, we no longer are in bondage to sin!  Being made free from sin, God expects us not to continue in it.  That would be like freeing a slave, only to have him return to his taskmaster and put his chains and shackles back on!

 I have said repetitively that we are called to a right way to live. The difference is we are now treated as children, not slaves.

 

If we grow as we should, and progress from babes in Christ who drink only the milk of God's word, to mature Christians who can handle the strong meat of God's word, our salvation is still no less dependent on the presence of the Holy Spirit.  Therefore if we slide backward (by any means) so far that we willfully re-enter a life of sin and degradation, having an attitude of rebellion against the Holy Spirit, this is the fearful end a Christian (not a sinner!) can be certain of:

 Disagree, for the same reasons have stated above already.

 

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves [we who are Christians] together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another [we who are Christians]: and so much the more, as you [you who are Christians] see the day approaching.  For if we [we who are Christians] sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

"He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, says the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Regarding Hebrews 10 and focusing in on 10:29 and the surrounding verses I would ask that you read them in context. Who is the author writing to? What is their understanding of the Mosaic Law regarding sanctification. Taking this into account and understanding their complete rejection of the blood of Jesus as either unholy or common which tells us that they are not saved, nor ever saved. This is not a change in heart or simply a reaction, it is revealed that they hold the blood of Jesus in no higher regard than the blood of the animals killed in the old system which were used sin and for sanctification. They want to return to the old system because they do not trust that the blood of Jesus saves eternally. Today many people accept that Jesus died, but struggle with He died once for sin and that no further sacrifice or work is required to be saved. This is where people really get confused. Faith in Jesus is required for salvation and that faith must be in the right things regarding Jesus, or you have the wrong Jesus. It is not enough to simply say I accept Jesus, what does that really mean?

 

A Christian who is doing their best has no reason to fear losing their salvation!  That does not just mean they repented of past sins, and committed their soul to God; it also includes obedience.  The New Testament has many references to obedience that make it plain that obedience is necessary, not optional.  Christians are supposed to "commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing,"--and "well doing" means obedience!  Always doing our best for God, because the Holy Spirit is there to help us do it.

 You just made it a “works salvation” and that stands against Scripture.

 

A Christian who becomes stubborn, rebellious, slothful or profane should beware--because every Christian who backslides is traveling in the same direction: away from God, and toward hell which God prepared for the devil and his angels--that is the fiery indignation of God his adversaries.  If we who are Christians sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, and that means the blood of Jesus no longer covers those sins committed in rebellion against God.

There are no more sacrifices because there is only one and that sacrifice is sufficient. What do you trust in when you do sin and repent to make you clean? In the past shed blood or ???

 

There is only certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  Hebrews chapter 10 is a description of a Christian who has lost their salvation.  The warning was written to Christians!

We disagree as stated above.

 

I state this meaning to be nice about it, but please come up with something new. I tire of answering the same questions over and over again about the same Scripture. After debating this for many years it is growing old, or I am one :-)

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 18, 2011 at 6:59pm

LB,

 

The short answer to what you have posted without going line by line is:

 

Your salvation is based on works because you require works to retain it. In your view if you stop working/serving you lose it. Don't you see that you are placing the responsibility of salvation on you and what you do. You see Jesus as merely opening the door that allows you to try and work or live up to a standard to keep it. That is works based, for without works you are not saved.

 

My salvation is based on Jesus only. I can do nothing to attain it or retain it. I work because of Jesus and my relationship to Him. If I fail Him He disciplines me. My goal is not to work harder, but to competely surrender so that it is not my will, but His will being done; Not I, but Christ.

 

Our difference is primarily regarding "retention of salvation."

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 19, 2011 at 10:32am

LB,

 

Jesus came to serve and yet was never less than God in the flesh. A prince, in fact a king, serves the kingdom even in ruling. I have never said that we are not to do anything. I have said our salvation (being forgiven and remaining born-again) is not dependant upon our doing. The Bible clearly teaches that we were created for good works that follow salvation.

 

Lord Bless,

LT 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 19, 2011 at 7:10pm

LB,

 

You said the Bible only calls us "sons of God" 6 times. You are asking the wrong question and getting the an incomplete answer. The NT specifically refers to God as "our" Father in 54 verses. More if you include indirect references. We are also referred to as "Child of God" once, "sons of God" four times, "children of God" nine times, and "God's children" three times.

 

Thought you might like to know.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 19, 2011 at 10:44am

LB,

 

If it is maintained by works, then it is dependant on works and thus a salvation of works and not grace. I have used the following phrase many times in my ministry. "Saved by grace, maintained by grace." Any other equation reverts to a works base mentality. You present here "Saved by grace, maintained by works." Dear LB you and I could not live righteously enough to earn our salvation and we cannot live perfectly now to keep it. That is not a dig, but a reality. God calls for perfection. Our perfection is found in and only in Jesus Christ.

 

You commented that a person does not lose it all at once, but gradually. All at once or over time is still presenting a works based salvation.

 

That is not what I see int he Bible at all. "We are saved by grace and maintained by grace."

 

I will repeat one more time. This does not mean that we are free to be slothful and lazy. Just the opposite. Our lives are to be so surrendered to Jesus that we begin to reflect Him to others. But, this is not attached to being saved. It is enabled because we are saved.

 

Lastly, you said the whole reason Jesus saved us is so that we can do works. Does Jesus really need our works? He wants us. He died for us that we may live with Him.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 18, 2011 at 4:50am

Sister LB,

>For if we [we who are Christians] sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

I don't think "receiving the knowledge of the truth" means the same as accepting Christ as Savior. One can tell you about Christ, you have received the knowledge of the truth.  However, you must receive Christ, as well as the knowledge of the truth. Once on becomes a Believer, one receives the "Comforter". I don't think that He comforts us so much that we can let go of Christ.

Blessings,

Rita

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Permalink Reply by Carla on February 18, 2011 at 3:40pm

Amanda...  fantastic.  Thank you.

Blessings, Carla

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