If you believe you can lose your salvation, please take time to illustrate how a person can lose their salvation by making it applicable to the believer today.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 1, 2011 at 10:49am

My brother Robert-

 

I agree that knowledge of the original languages would bless the student of the word immensely. I also truly believe that God has taken good care of his Word. He has made sure that the translations we now have are well suited to convey what He had penned down in parchments and papyrus paper.

 

I said that to say this, though I am in agreement that an understanding or being fluent on the ancient tongues would be paramount to ones understanding of scripture, I firmly believe the function of the Holy Spirit in our lives, as we delight in God's word , by using our English translations is of equal worth, so much so that those who do not know Greek or Hebrew or even how to use a lexicon, but feast in the word of God have just as much enlightenment as those that can speak the original languages of the bible.

 

Blessings family

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 28, 2011 at 10:26am

Clayton,

 

The question that has to be answered first is whether the person was born-again? Many people feel regret, go to church, pray a prayer and have some preacher tell them they got saved when in fact nothing happened. When a person comes through repentance to the point of decision and they surrender their life to Jesus they are born-again by the power of God. They are transformed. They become children of God. Once a person is a child of God they are no longer under condemnation for their sin or actions. This does not mean that there are no consequences for sin. Jesus paid the price for our sin at the cross. He redeemed us, we have been bought at a price. This new life faces divine discipline for walking in sin.

 

Your "true life story" is incomplete. It is incomplete because you cannot know what took place in the man's heart the day he proclaimed to have been saved. You also cannot know what took place in the man's heart the moment prior to him breathing his last breathe. God does not look at only the moment, but sees our lives from beginning to end.

 

Thus the simple answer to your question is that all who are born-again will be kept, because they are already eternally saved and sealed. Those who pretend or think they are saved because they said a prayer or walked the aisle will remain lost unless they come to the point where they are born-again. This also includes all those who are working to earn their salvation.

 

What you are presenting is "saved by grace and maintained by works." Works follow salvation, but our salvation is not dependent on the works. Our salvation rest wholly now and for all of eternity in Jesus Christ alone.

 

One last thought. Over the years I have made it a point to share the gospel with churched people. Too often people assume they are saved. They attend church, seek to live a moral life and yet they missed the life changing encounter with the living Savior. Countless numbers who thought they were saved realized they were not and have come to Christ.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on March 1, 2011 at 12:48am

Dear LT

 

I agree with what you said in the 1st Paragraph. But I would like to add something which the Bible Declares, - "No one who has known God will continue to sin, but those who continue in sin has never known God". Therefore we must understand that Divine Discipline is definitely there, But those who refuse to obey or accept that discipline (since man has free will), can he be saved???

 

Next, we definitely can know a man by His Fruits. See I'm not saying that when a man comes to Christ he bcomes transformed in an instant when it comes to his behaviour. But a Man who has the Spirit of God, Born Again, will have a Heart to Obey God, and to turn away from sin. You may call that Works salvation, But I call that "Salvation of Faith". Cause True Faith leads to Repentance and Obedience.

 

Remember what Paul says, "

But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

Jesus Said- "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." -Mat 24:13

In Philipians 2:13 and 13, Paul writes, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.”

You see, those who stand till the end will be the proved children of God. There is a process of Obedience there. When the angels asked the Master if they should remove the weeds, in Jesus' Parable, Jesus said, "No not now. Wait until the Harvest time". Thats cause when the crop was young, it wouldn't be distinguised from the weed and therefore the crop also might have been removed. Therefore only when the harvest was come were the weeds removed; there was a clear distinguising of crop and weed when the 'full time' had come. THAT MEANS THERE IS A TIME OF MATURITY, AND GOD WILL KNOW EVERY CHILD OF HIS.

Moreover, it is who God haS already chosen eternally those who will enter the kingdom of heaven. Not the Work of man, but the plan of God. Therefore in one way we "cannot" lose our salvation. That's cause we cannot judge anyone now to see if they will be saved, cause it is God who will know the heart of all men. Dosen't the Bible say that many will come to me saying LORD LORD, and I will tell them to depart from me because they are workers of lawlessness. You see, they called Him Lord, Did Miracles in His name, but they didn't give up sin.

 

So in a way this is a topic that cannot be theorized. So what's more important is to not worry about this thing at all, and instead walk in Obedience to the LORD Jesus Christ, Trusting in His Sacrificial Death and Grace (forgiveness). And working out  our salvation with Fear and trembling.

 

It's not our brain that will save us. It's our heart toward God, in Truth, Righteousness, and Love. Amen.

 

God bless all the readers with Wisdom from above. Don't be confused.

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Permalink Reply by Robert Browning on March 1, 2011 at 1:09am

One problem about quoting just one scripture, you don't get the whole picture, because Mathew 24:13 is part where Jesus sat at the Mount of Olives with his disciples and telling them of some of signs of the end times and that section is about the False Prophets. 

I wish I could go more into detail than that but it is late here and I about to go to bed.

 

Take care, and God Bless

Robert

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 1, 2011 at 3:38am

Clayton,

 

You are presenting absolutely nothing new. Each of your points have been raised numerous times and addressed each time here on AAG. I ask you again, have you read the various threads in the three forums I posted for you, plus this one?

 

I agree with what you said in the 1st Paragraph. But I would like to add something which the Bible Declares, - "No one who has known God will continue to sin, but those who continue in sin has never known God". Therefore we must understand that Divine Discipline is definitely there, But those who refuse to obey or accept that discipline (since man has free will), can he be saved???

You answer the last question with your own statement. No one who knows God will continue in sin. What does continue in sin mean? Is it a brief moment where one sins? A period in one’s life where they walk rebellion or is it really a heart matter (having a heart that has never been changed)? A man who has been born-again will be saved, because he has already been transformed spiritually. You give God too little credit for His ability to effectively discipline us and us too much power in your view of freewill. We have liberties, but God is still sovereign.

 

Next, we definitely can know a man by His Fruits. See I'm not saying that when a man comes to Christ he bcomes transformed in an instant when it comes to his behaviour.

Again, you make the case for me. A man is transformed spiritual in an instant. This is the new-birth. He is then sanctified positionally in Christ. He will then begin the lifelong process of experiential sanctification. This is part of the process of maturing as a Christian. He will grow and be enabled to align with God daily as He is empowered by the Holy Spirit and as He surrenders to God daily seeking  “not I, but Christ: and “Not my will, but Your will be done.” At death we move on to glorification, the transformation of the body.

 

But a Man who has the Spirit of God, Born Again, will have a Heart to Obey God, and to turn away from sin.

Absolutely and yet at the same time he lives in a flesh that wars against him. You need to understand the application of Romans 6-8 as applied to the sanctification process.

 

You may call that Works salvation, But I call that "Salvation of Faith". Cause True Faith leads to Repentance and Obedience.

You have the order incorrect. Repentance (change of mind that leads to change of direction) precedes saving faith. We experience godly sorrow that brings repentance that  leads to salvation. Once saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit we are now being prepared (empowered) to live for Christ as we mature. Our will is bent toward Christ and our Spirit enabled by the Holy Spirit.

 

Remember what Paul says, "

But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

What is the crown he is trying to earn (win)? He is speaking about his apostleship. What is his goal and crown in context? Read Philippians 4:1 and 1 Thessalonians 2:19.

 

Jesus Said- "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." -Mat 24:13

What great words of encouragement. Jesus telling that as we stand firm to the end we are saved in Him. Have hope, endure the hardship. Could you imagine that if every time a person goes through a difficult trial or tribulation if they had to fear losing their salvation if the storm overtakes them? In the boat the disciples feared and asked the Lord to calm the storm. He did and rebuked them for little faith. He proclaimed them to have “little faith” not “no faith.” In response to their fear He calmed the storm.

 

In Philipians 2:13 and 13, Paul writes, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.”
You see a picture of the sanctification process at work. Salvation has three basic parts. These parts are Justification/Regeneration, sanctification (positional and experiential), and glorification. You italicized the key part. Who does the work in and through us? God Himself.

You see, those who stand till the end will be the proved children of God.

Absolutely. Read Romans 8 and 1 John 5.

 

There is a process of Obedience there.

Once we are born-again we embark on the journey of sanctification.

 

When the angels asked the Master if they should remove the weeds, in Jesus' Parable, Jesus said, "No not now. Wait until the Harvest time". Thats cause when the crop was young, it wouldn't be distinguised from the weed and therefore the crop also might have been removed. Therefore only when the harvest was come were the weeds removed; there was a clear distinguising of crop and weed when the 'full time' had come. THAT MEANS THERE IS A TIME OF MATURITY, AND GOD WILL KNOW EVERY CHILD OF HIS.

How in  the world do you suppose to prove this is a message about losing salvation and not God’s long-suffering with mankind? Your logic here just does not hold up. This is your personal interpretation.

 

Moreover, it is who God haS already chosen eternally those who will enter the kingdom of heaven. Not the Work of man, but the plan of God. Therefore in one way we "cannot" lose our salvation. That's cause we cannot judge anyone now to see if they will be saved, cause it is God who will know the heart of all men.

You again make the case yourself for eternal security. God sees the beginning from the and all that is in-between. God judges the heart, we see only the external at any given moment. Do you know what tomorrow holds? God does.

 

Dosen't the Bible say that many will come to me saying LORD LORD, and I will tell them to depart from me because they are workers of lawlessness. You see, they called Him Lord, Did Miracles in His name, but they didn't give up sin.

Read the text carefully. The Bible does not say that they were doing these things. They proclaim that they were doing these things. It is a self-proclamation. Jesus clearly shows that in fact they were not operating in His name by the Spirit by proclaiming He never knew them. Read Acts 19 and the seven sons of Sceva. If these seven had died before they met that demon they would have supposed they were casting out demons in Jesus name, but in fact were not and in this case did not. What one thinks about one’s self is not nearly as important as what God proclaims about that person.

 

So in a way this is a topic that cannot be theorized. So what's more important is to not worry about this thing at all, and instead walk in Obedience to the LORD Jesus Christ, Trusting in His Sacrificial Death and Grace (forgiveness). And working out  our salvation with Fear and trembling.

I agree, except that many people live life everyday with the fear of going to hell after they have come to Christ because people teach them that they better measure up. This is legalism cloaked. Now once we are born-again there is a right reason to live the right way, but it has nothing to do with fear, or remaining saved. 

 

It's not our brain that will save us. It's our heart toward God, in Truth, Righteousness, and Love. Amen.

Actually, it is Jesus who will save us. This cannot be over emphasized.

 

(Please take the time to read the forums I gave you. Everyone of your questions has been addressed in them.)

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on March 1, 2011 at 8:02am

Thanks for replying so quickly LT.

God bless you,

Tc

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Permalink Reply by Robert Browning on March 1, 2011 at 12:22pm

Lt, I you a very wise in the scriptures, because you made my point, but you do it so eloquently.

 

I like to add to a section that You made the point on:

 

Next, we definitely can know a man by His Fruits. See I'm not saying that when a man comes to Christ he bcomes transformed in an instant when it comes to his behaviour.

Again, you make the case for me. A man is transformed spiritual in an instant. This is the new-birth. He is then sanctified positionally in Christ. He will then begin the lifelong process of experiential sanctification. This is part of the process of maturing as a Christian. He will grow and be enabled to align with God daily as He is empowered by the Holy Spirit and as He surrenders to God daily seeking  “not I, but Christ: and “Not my will, but Your will be done.” At death we move on to glorification, the transformation of the body.

 

I understand both parts that you both were making.  If you don't mind I would like to add one thing.

 

If you are a missionary and went to a culture that was so different from what you was custom to.  They never heard of Jesus Christ or God that we know personally.  They worship Idols, has multiple wives, and are into mutilation of their body.  And you succeed with one man and he turned his life over to Jesus.   Now do you change his culture or let the Holy Spirit do His job?

 

The Holy Spirit will put on his heart what is right and what is wrong.  The man will change his culture on his own with the help of the Holy Spirit.  It diffidently won't happen over night or a week.  It may take a year or longer.  We are human and we sin everyday, but thanks to Jesus Christ dying for our sins.  I am a blood bought Christian.  So is the man that accepted Christ who has a different culture than your own.  He will change over time with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

God Bless,

Robert 

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Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on March 2, 2011 at 7:22am

Dear Robert.

 

Thanks for you caring reply. God bless you.

 

But I believe that no one has got the heart of what I was saying. I never said that we won't be saved or we aren't saved if we sin after accepting Jesus Christ. Neither did I intend to say that we are saved by works. All I'm saying and  will continue to say is that if any1 continues to sin intentionally after accepting the Gospel and Jesus Christ, there is no more sacrifice left for Him. Because he Treats low the blood of JEsus.

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

 

So if WE PRACTICE SIN>>> We Won't be saved...

And If WE FALL INTO SIN>>>God will forgive us if we repent.

 

God bless the readers and seekers with understanding and Wisdom (Including me :-) )

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Permalink Reply by Robert Browning on March 2, 2011 at 9:28am

Clayton thank you for your reply and I get what you are saying.  I have questioned and used that arguement before, and I feel some people use this belief to sin and it is very confusing.  Then you have to question the person salvation.  Some people will ask for forgiveness of there sins, and if there heart is not in it.  Then that salvation I feel is not genuine.  God looks at our heart, not what we say.  Believe it our not, some people feel they could lie to God and get away with it.

 

If a person's salvation is sincere, then the Holy Spirit will change us so we would not have the desire to sin, but we are human and we will sin everyday and we will acknolege it pray about it, and become a stronger Christian for it.  I feel the Eternal Security are for these people, and not for people who lie to themselves and to God.

 

I hope that is clearer.

 

God Bless

Robert

 

P.S. As my Sunday School Teacher has said to us:  We will be surprise who is in Heaven and who is not.

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 24, 2011 at 5:54am

Hebrews 3:14 For we have come to share in Christ. The evidence of the Christian truly partaking of Christ’s salvation involves endurance to the end. The condition (if indeed) has been understood in various ways. Some have argued that the condition (“if”) indicates that true Christians can lose their salvation. Scripture is clear, however, that true believers cannot lose their salvation, as evidenced, e.g., by John 10:27–29 (“no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand”), Eph. 1:4 (“he chose us in him before the foundation of the world”), and many other Scripture passages (e.g., John 6:39–40; Rom. 8:35, 38–39; Phil. 1:6; 1 Pet. 1:3–5). Hebrews 3:14 should be understood in connection with v. 13, as is indicated by the linking word “for” (Gk. gar). That is, v. 14 is linked to the exhortation not to become hardened (in unbelief and sin). Thus the logic of the argument is that those who are hardened or who become hardened (v. 13) give outward evidence that they are not (and never have been) genuine believers who “share in Christ,” because genuine believers do not become hardened; instead they persevere—that is, they hold on to their original confidence firm to the end. Of course, Scripture also encourages believers to pray for and seek to bring back any who have fallen away (James 5:20; 1 John 5:16), in the hope that they will turn back. Still, this passage should be viewed as a sober warning—intended as a means that God uses to keep Christians resolved in faith and obedient until the end. The ongoing experience of perseverance results in “confidence” and assurance that one does in fact “share in Christ.” This verse then provides a grave warning to everyone who claims to be saved—that is, to examine oneself carefully to be sure that one is in fact a genuine believer, because if there is no evidence of perseverance in faith and obedience, then there is real reason to doubt that such a person has ever been saved.

Crossway Bibles: The ESV Study Bible. Wheaton, IL : Crossway Bibles, 2008, S. 2365

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 25, 2011 at 1:09pm

Amanda,

God does not change, but His governing factors do change from one covenant to another. This is especially true when we examine the difference between the old covenant (which the text you are quesioning is found) and the new covenant. One example is the Levitical priesthood. They are the old covenant priest. Jesus comes and we see that whole priesthood set aside for Jesus is in the order of Melchizedek, not the Levitical priesthood. Another example is Law and Grace as governing factors.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 24, 2011 at 4:32pm

I hold God's Old Testament in high regard, but I do think that because we are children of Grace, saved through accepting Christ, Who died for us, that we need to search out our answers in the New "Will of God" written in the age of Grace.

Blessings,

Rita

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