If you believe you can lose your salvation, please take time to illustrate how a person can lose their salvation by making it applicable to the believer today.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 22, 2011 at 11:16am

Thanks LT. That does help. I have been reading many NT books with new "lenses" after these discussions began, and am seeing many things in a different light. I also see what you are saying about the book of Hebrews.

 

I always wondered why the writer of Hebrews said "the blood of the covenant" in Heb 10:29 and not rather directly "the Blood of Jesus". I see that it has to do with the context that you mentioned above, about the difference in covenants / blood shed under the different covenants, and their rejection/disregard of the Blood of Jesus in relation to the New Covenant.

 

I have a few other verses that need clearing up for me, but will post them tomorrow. Also, I had a thought this morning, about how those who are born again can be unborn again (which is mentioned often), but is this the real question to ask? -- Just as with natural birth, there is no such thing as being unborn again, but rather physical death follows (as a result of the sin of Adam death entered the natural world), if someone is born again spiritually, they cannot be unborn again, but can they die a spiritual death for disobedience/rejection of God/willful sinning?

 

Thanks for your time and efforts and patience thus far. Also for the genuine love and care that you show. It is appreciated! :-)

 

God Bless,

David A.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 22, 2011 at 12:24pm

David A.,

 

Thanks for the kind words and I enjoy discussing things with individuals like yourself.

 

For me the new birth is a new spriritual birth that cannot be undone because it is the life of Christ that we now possess and are possessed by and not simply a new different life. We become one with Him as He is one with the Father. Thus, we can truly call it eternal life, a life without beggining or end.

 

Lord Bless,

LT 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 22, 2011 at 12:05pm

LB,

 

I did not overlook it, I counted on it. Spiritual truth comes through illumination/enlightenment by the Holy Spirit and through the Word. This enlightenment by the Holy Spirit reveals to us who we are, who Jesus is and our need for a Savior among other things. This truth once revealed and experienced is not subject to change for it is not taught by man, but revealed by the Holy Spirit. It was not an intellectual education, though the intellect is invovled, it was a spiritual education.

 

Jesus asked Peter who do you say I am? Peter replied the Christ. Jesus told Peter that this knowledge had come from God. In fact that is the only way this knowledge comes.

 

Saving faith follows the spiritual illumination, it does not precede it.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 22, 2011 at 12:42pm

LB,

 

Illumination is progressive. We are speaking here specifically about the illumination required for salvation, a salvation that comes with a seal. When one comes to the reality that Jesus is the Son fo God that knowledge is not forgotten.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on February 23, 2011 at 6:04am

Dear LT

 

First of all what it is to be saved? We are not saved by "accepting Jesus into our Heart and doing things in His name", We see in the Bible that 'Many will come on that day declaring Christ as "Lord" and claiming that they did  works in HIS NAME. But Christ will say "Get away from me you workers of Lawlessness".

 

Many misunderstand salvation these days. We are not saved only by Faith. "Faith Without works is Dead" - James. We are saved by Obedience to the Gospel. Now notice carefully, that those who have true faith will be obeyers of God and his word. That'z the faith that saves, and until the person obeys He will be under God's protection.

 

Losing salvation is simply getting back to the World. The Bible is very clear that "those who stand till the end" will be saved. The Bible also teaches us that because of False Teachers many Elect will fall. Aren't the elect Believers? Moreover Paul uses a very important Phrase called "Shipwrecked their Faith", meaning that once they were ppl who had faith but shipwrecked because of unbelief, deception and deceitfulness of wealth.

 

These days ppl are more concerned about salvation than their relationship with God. THat'z when questions like "can I lose my salvation?" start emerging. This is because their hearts are more focussed on escaping Hell rather than on Love and Obedience to God. But Those who obey God have a security in Them, that they KNOW GOD AND GOD KNOWS THEM >>> THAT's Faith which produces fruits.

 

But those who are even baptised and continue sinning are doomed to hell. Or if  Baptism and Receiving Jesus into our Hearts were more important than obedience, then why Didn't God save those Circumcised in Flesh? No, It's not about our Doctrine that Saves us...What saves us is our Repentance, and Obedience to God - the first obedience being  Believing in Our Lord and Savior JEsus Christ. Amen.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 23, 2011 at 6:26am

Clayton,

 

So you believe in "works salvation" and not grace? For your salvation as presented by you depends on you. Please, explain how that is not salvation of and by works?

 

What saves us is "Jesus" and this is by grace through faith, not of works, so that no man can boast. Repentance is part of the path that leads to Jesus. Works follow salvation as seen in Eph. 2:8-10.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on February 23, 2011 at 9:33pm

Dear LT, First of all I would like to tell you (with an honest heart and not pride) that if your intention is just to argue about the topic then I wouldn't reply further, but if it is concentrated on mutual Growth and Edification of The Body of Christ, then let's do so with complete understanding of eachother.

 

That being said, I would like you to read the post again. It's not by works that we are saved. If it were, then none of us could be saved. But I'm saying that True Faith includes OBEDIENCE(Following Repentance) and produces FRUIT. We must not misunderstand being saved. Being saved is not a state, but it's a journey. That means, in the course if someone chooses to stop running the race and turn back, then he has lost it. Why else would Paul state in Heb 6:4-6 ---"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame".

 You see they were 1. Enlightened 2. Tasted the Heavenly Gift 3. Become Partakers of the Holy Spirit 4. Tasted the Good Word of God. 5. Tasted the Powers of the age to come.

 

You decide. God bless. Stand strong in Him. Amen.

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 24, 2011 at 5:37am

Clayton,

 

1) On AAG when someone disagrees with you and addresses what another has said it is not presumed that we are desiring to argue, but simply discussing the subject. You are presenting a salvation that is not experienced until the future and is dependent on works. That is simply what you have presented. You are presenting a "works based salvation." I will rephrase your position as stated by you. You believe no one is truly saved until the end. You believe that if they do not work they will not be saved. How is that not dependent on works? That is the question before you. You can consider it argumentative, but it is a simple and valid question that I would like you to ponder and respond to accordingly. Your view depends on works to remain saved, or get saved in the end. I teach we work because we are saved. It is a response to our great and wonderful salvation.

 

2) Salvation is not purely a journey, but has 3 basic phases. I) We are justified/regenerated: This means we are forgiven and born-again in a moment in time. This moment takes place when we surrender to Jesus as Lord and Savior asking Him to forgive us of our sins. II) Sanctification: there are two parts to sanctification and the second part has two parts as well. a) We are sanctified when we are born-again in that we are spiritually changed (2 Cor. 5:17). Our sinfulness is exchanged with the righteousness and holiness of Jesus Christ our Savior. We positionally are sanctified in Him as we possess Him and He us. b) Then we come to experiential sanctification. i) There is a crisis experience. We are saved and positionally sanctified, but we recognize that we are unable to live the Christian life on our own, in our own strength. We come to the point of surrendering our wills/lives to His will. The Holy Spirit fills us and empowers us to live for Jesus. ii) This is the progressive stage it is our lives lived out day by day. We are at the point where we want "not my will, but Your will be done" and "not I, but Christ." We start as babes and grow in grace, knowledge and maturity. Nowhere along the way do the saved lose their salvation. The saved have been transformed and are now children of God and God is now our Father. This progressive stage is lifelong with many victories and usually some setbacks. III) Glorification: We will be changed physically in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. Our new spirit will be joined to our new body fitted for eternity.

 

3) As children of God if we cease to live in a right way we face divine discipline (Heb 12). God does not toss away His own, but saves them to the uttermost. He treats them as children and rebukes and corrects them as necessary.

 

4) Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6, this has been addressed many times on AAG and in this forum already. I will repost it in response to what you view as the right interpretation of the passage.

 

(This is the response given earlier in this forum on this passage)

(Quote)

There are many views on this text. I do not presume that we will solve it here to everyone’s satisfaction, but we can surely work through the various issues up to a point. The common three views summarized are 1) They were saved and lost it. 2) They were never saved and the statement is posed hypothetically. 3) They were never saved, but were brought to the precipice of salvation, the moment of decision.

 

(I say the following for the benefit of the community and is not directed to the current participants personally) When looking at Scripture we come at it based on the method of interpretation we have been taught and with doctrines guiding us. Some will argue this and they are free to, but I will disagree with them and let it go. If I believed that the totality of Scripture lead to one being able to lose salvation once attained I would accept view number one and discard the rest, or be hard pressed to believe it. I would then use these verses to try and support my view against other verses that teach the security of the believer. That is the way it works. If I believe in eternal security I will reject the first view and seek to discern which of the other two are in alignment with what I understand the Bible to teach regarding eternal security. Some will argue that they just want the simple truth. If only the truth were that simple then there would be no disagreements. Yet, these disagreements persist between people who love Jesus and live for Him. Not enemies of the cross, but soldiers of the cross. We sometimes forget this vital truth. Yes, there will be wolves in sheep’s clothing at times, but all who disagree (in fact most) are not wolves, but fellow followers of Christ with differing views.

 

Why did I say all of that? Clarity regarding where people are coming from when dealing with difficult subjects helps us to treat one another as brother/sisters while remaining on topic and true to our convictions while I trust teachable at the same time.

 

Now to the specific topic. Why did I bring up “what is repentance?” LB has already covered most, if not all of this. Repentance is one side of a coin that makes a whole. The other side is faith (Trust/surrender) in Jesus Christ. One without the other is incomplete regarding salvation. A person can be sorry for sin, know Jesus is God and still reject Him and choose the darkness over light. Once this knowledge has been revealed to us we cannot unlearn it, nor can we learn it again. This is part of the repentance process, for the whole of repentance is a process. Through repentance we are led to the point of decision.

 

Some come to this knowledge and decide to trust self and embrace religion and work hard only to remain lost. They see their sin and the Savior, but cannot come to the point of surrender. They reject Him as the payment for their sin. Some come to this knowledge and decide to just walk away. The Hebrews had another system to return to. Today people have many other religions and worldly trapping to snare them. Some come to this knowledge and actually surrender and they experience transformation. They are saved. Both sides of the coin are operable. This is followed by good works.

 

Some will argue that in Scripture there are times that only faith or only repentance is mentioned regarding being saved. That is another subject all together regarding language, culture, the author and who the hearer is.

 

Now to be specific regarding what is said in the text (Heb 6:4-6). Can this interpretation hold up?

Enlightened: Before a person can be saved they must be enlightened. This alone does not save them, but guides them to repentance and then surrender. This deals with the intellectual nature.

Tasted of the heavenly gift: Before a person can be saved there has to be a realization of the personage and work of Christ which is the heavenly gift, the Lamb of God who died for us. This deals with our spiritual nature.

Shared in the Holy Spirit: the Greek word hear means partaker or partner. No one comes to salvation who has not experienced the power and presence of the Holy Spirit who does the enlightening and gives the taste of the heavenly gift.

Verse 5 simply reemphasizes what is revealed in verse 4. They have had an experience with the Word of God and the powers of the age to come.

If they fall away: This term is significant. This is not regarding the person in the struggle of decision, but one who has outright rejected the gift of God. Since repentance requires a change of mind and a person cannot unlearn a truth they cannot have their minds changed a second time because they are already aware of the truth and experienced the working of God in their lives. There is no sacrifice left, they rejected it.

 

Further thought: This time of decision need not be a moment in time, but as part of the process. We have seen people agonizing over the decision to surrender to Jesus for months or years. This proves the Spirit is still working and that their hearts have not been closed and they have not committed the unpardonable sin. They are experiencing the repentance process.

(End of Quote) 

 

Clayton, whether you decide to continue to engage or not is up to you. In engaging on AAG you will find differing views, and often people will challenge your view or mine. That is how it works here. Then, when people are operating in love, they discuss the issue back and forth until there is an agreement on the topic or they agree to disagree. I disagree with your view and thus here we are. The next step is up to you. Do you want to discuss the difference with an open heart and mind?

 

This topic has been discussed many times. You may want to take the time to read through these other forums on the same topic.

http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/can-we-lose-our-salvation

http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/losing-salvation

http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/once-saved-always-saved

 

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on February 26, 2011 at 3:40am

Haha, Dear LT. I really hope you didn't take what I said wrongly. See I'm very straight forward at nature, and therefore said if you intend to argue then let's not do this. I didn't imply that you're intention was to argue. Sorry if my language was not clear. And please accept my straightforwardness (if that's a word :-) ). The reason I'm against arguement is because that's not the Spirit of God. But discussing and coming to a conclusion based on the Word of God is not wrong.

 

See dear LT, my elder brother in Christ. I want to make myself clear.

1. I believe in Salvation only through Faith in Jesus Christ and His  completed work of Salvation for us. I DO NOT believe that we are saved by works.
2. Secondly, I believe - according to the Bible- that this Faith produces fruit of Righteousness and Holiness. This happens when we Obey God. Therefore Faith and Obedience go hand in hand. If we obey it's because of Faith, and If we have True Faith we will Obey.
3. Thirdly when we believe in Christ we are Justified, and by confessing Him as Our Lord and Savior (includes our daily living and not a prayer) we are saved. Now God gives His  Spirit to all who Believe in Him and Obey Him. Now when we fall, we know that He will forgive us. But if we intentionally continue to sin, and deny Him in our life -though we might have faith - that faith cannot save. But God will keep convicting that person of his sin. But until the end if he goes on sinning intentionally (not taking an effort to leave sin), and/or loses His Trust in God and Denies His Savior Jesus Christ, HE WONT BE SAVED.

1 Cor 6:9-10 - ⁹Or do you not know that the unrighteous^[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:^(A) neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,^{[b] 10}nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Therefore some may call themselves believers and are not really believers because they fall into this category. Some may say that they were never saved in the first place. Whatever it is, My main point in the discussions I posted were to bring out the main point that whoever walks in disobedience will not inherit the Kingdom of God, even if they are baptised out of a true heart or say they have faith.

 

Again to clear misunderstanding. Those who sin unintentionally, or fall into intentional sins, But repent and have their hearts set toward God and His Kingdom will be forgiven. But the Hypocrites won't be forgiven.

 

I believe these things from the scriptures. If I've Gone wrong somewhere, May God give me understanding, and may my Christian brothers correct me on that. God bless.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 26, 2011 at 6:40am

Clayton,

 

Sometimes when dealing with the written form of communication it takes a couple of comments back-and-forth to get hold of what the other one is saying and to understand better where they stand. I better understand your position. Thank you for the clarity. We agree that discussing things in a godly manner is good.

 

I agree with # 1 you posted. I disagree with certain parts or wording in numbers 2 and 3.

 

Regarding #2:

There is first a work on the part of God that works the righteousness and holiness of Christ in us. This comes as the righteousness and holiness of Jesus are imputed to us at the time we are justified and regenerated. This is when we are born-again. We take on the very nature of Jesus as we are joined to Him, because His nature is imputed into us. This new state, once regenerated, is called positional sanctification. Sanctification has two parts. They are positional and experiential. Experiential is what we experience as we live out this life in the Spirit battling the flesh that wars against us. We are saved by grace through faith and then called to good works. We agree that we are to live a right way. We disagree on what living the right way does for us spiritually. We begin as babes and must grow toward spiritual maturity. This growth process does not change us from something else into a child of God. We are completely changed spiritually at new birth (2 Co. 5:17). When a baby is born they are fully human. They do not grow into something else. They simply mature into manhood, but every step of the way they are human. Every step of the way in the growth process, once we are born-again, we remain children of God who are growing in maturity as children of God.

PHP 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

PHP 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Good works that we are called to will follow the new birth. If a child of God chooses to rebel He will face divine discipline (Heb. 12) which is corrective in nature. God disciplines us because He loves us.

 

Regarding #3:

Thirdly when we believe in Christ we are Justified, and by confessing Him as Our Lord and Savior (includes our daily living and not a prayer) we are saved.

What you are describing is evidence of a transformed life. You will get no disagreement from me that many people today think they are saved because they said a prayer or walked to the altar. For many there was no real repentance and surrender to Jesus. They walk away the same as they came.

 

Now God gives His  Spirit to all who Believe in Him and Obey Him.

We disagree on who God gives the Holy Spirit. He gives the Holy Spirit to all who become born-again. It is by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit that we will be capable of truly living in a manner that pleases God. This includes doing the works that we were created for. In the new covenant transformation precedes empowerment.

 

Now when we fall, we know that He will forgive us. But if we intentionally continue to sin, and deny Him in our life -though we might have faith - that faith cannot save.

Faith does not save us, Jesus does. This is a critical distinction. We are saved by grace through faith, this not of yourself … Both the grace and faith are of God. People have falsely believed that if they just have enough faith they will be saved. Faith is a work of God that comes through the work of the Holy Spirit. We could not find the Father if the Son did not reveal Him and we would not come to the Son if the Father did not draw us.

Not picking on you, but for clarity, our hope is not in faith, but in Jesus.

 

But God will keep convicting that person of his sin. But until the end if he goes on sinning intentionally (not taking an effort to leave sin), and/or loses His Trust in God and Denies His Savior Jesus Christ, HE WONT BE SAVED.

Your view sees God throwing away His child and puts much of the process of remaining saved on man. Jesus saves us and He keeps us. Once we are born-again, transformed, sealed, indwelt, and become children of God to name a few things that happen at the new birth we cannot become unborn. What the rebellious child of God will experience is divine discipline. The goal is always corrective in nature.

 

Regarding the rest of your post:

1 Cor 6:9-10 - ⁹Or do you not know that the unrighteous^[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God?

RO 1:17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

 

RO 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

 

RO 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

RO 3:24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

RO 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

RO 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

RO 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

RO 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

 

RO 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

1CO 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

 

GAL 3:6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

 

2TI 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

2TI 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

The last two verses reveal that we are to be trained in righteousness in order to fulfill the good work, the work we have been created for.

 

Therefore some may call themselves believers and are not really believers because they fall into this category. Some may say that they were never saved in the first place. Whatever it is, My main point in the discussions I posted were to bring out the main point that whoever walks in disobedience will not inherit the Kingdom of God, even if they are baptised out of a true heart or say they have faith.

Let me ask a question. Who, but God knows the beginning and ending of someone’s life? When someone who has been born-again falls into rebellion can anyone say with certainty that they will not return to living on the right path? Can anyone say for certain what takes place in the last moments of one’s life? When a person is in rebellion many will say they have lost their salvation, but do we know the end or are we only reading the moment?

 

Again to clear misunderstanding. Those who sin unintentionally, or fall into intentional sins, But repent and have their hearts set toward God and His Kingdom will be forgiven. But the Hypocrites won't be forgiven.

We agree here in principle, because you portray two very different people. One is a born-again son and the other (hypocrite) is only an actor, someone pretending to be a follower of Christ. I would disagree that the born-again will lose His salvation. He will experience the conviction of the Holy Spirit and divine discipline from Father God.

 

 

There is a right way to live and God does not overlook sins. The eternal penalty is paid for in Christ Jesus for all who come to Him and are born-again. The born-again that rebel face divine discipline.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on February 23, 2011 at 9:43pm

Dear Amanda,

 

People who truly live in Christ, feeding on His Word, and Communicating with Him, will have Wisdom From the Holy Spirit, and therefore will be people who won't get deceived. But people who don't listen or obey God's voice will be deceived due to lack of wisdom and understanding. There were many times I witnessed False teachers and Preachers come and preach, but In my Heart there was a stirring that said - NO this is not a man of God. And finally it was proved to be true by their doctrine and fruit.

 

See the Bible teaches us about 10 Virgins- Only 5 enter the Kingdom of God. Weren't all "Virgins"? Weren't all Seeking after the Bridegroom? Didn't all sleep? But the difference in those 5 wise virgins were they Carried the Oil of God. They kept their lamps burning.

Don't be confused. Salvation is a journey not a theory. Therefore Paul tells us "to work out our salvation with fear and trembling". We are obviously and Only saved by Faith. But that Faith is tested.

 

God Bless you dear Amanda.

TC

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on February 26, 2011 at 3:17am

Dear Amanda.

See I'm not saying that every1 would have a prompting/stirring like I do. The reason I got it is because that's one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that God has given me - To discern the spirits.

God says in Hosea 4:6 - My People Perish due to lack of knowledge. See many people reject knowlege and therefore fall into deceptions. Christ has commanded us to watch. And how do we watch. We watch by Growing in the knowledge of Salvation, Through Prayer, and Through walking in the right Doctrine. Unless we know what the right things, how can we shield ourselves from the wrong. Therefore the Bible declares a mature believer to be someone who can distinguish between right and wrong - some1 who is perfected in that. For that we need the knowledge of the scripture.

See Amanda, anyone who truly seeks will Find. Therefore as long as we are seeking Him in the Truth of the Scripture and with a Hunger and Thirst for God we will be convicted of wrong things when they come our way.

 

And about losing your salvation - you cannot lose your salvation unless you reject God with an intentional heart and choose not to repent. But those who have been baptised intetionally surely have accepted the message of Christ and have received Forgiveness. The only way thhey would end up in hell is if they choose to continue in sin and deny God their savior. But until the end, because of that decision and God's love, He will keep convicting them. Amen. 

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 4
• 5
• 6
• 7
• 8
• …
• 10
• Next ›
• Page