Once saved always saved?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 15, 2011 at 11:14am

 

Sharon/Family -

 

Every single argument you can toss in here to back up the false believe that you can lose your salvation I can debunk with scripture, because God keeps his own. Stop calling God a liar with your erroneous understanding of scripture.

 

LT's post a few posts down from this one is right on. Most people think they understand the other camp's views regarding this topic. My statement will sound arrogant to some and pompous to others, but I will say it anyways. I do understand better than many of the (for I am even able to see the flaws in the arguments they are making to make a point for their case)  people holding the erroneous believe that salvation can be lost since I believed that for many years at one point, but through my continued study of the word, I was convince my previous understanding was wrong, so I changed, because I do not care about holding on to rubbish or about making a change or displeasing my flesh or some who will no longer like me if I align closer to scripture but do not agree with their understanding. 

 

I wish everyone wanted to grow and learn and had a teachable spirit rather than a defensive one. I am not angry or mad at anyone here, mainly sad at the miss-understanding of scripture, but I do love all of you.

 

Blessings and love to all.

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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on February 14, 2011 at 1:57pm

Found a letter to the editor about OSAS from This Rock magazine:

 

AN ABSOLUTE BUT UNCERTAIN ASSURANCE

Subscriber George Frame responded to last week's E-Letter (the topic was "once saved, always saved") with this:

"In the 19 years I spent as an Evangelical among the Plymouth Brethren, I heard many sermons on the eternal security of the believer. I gave a few myself. What you describe in your hypothetical example, I lived.

"A 'professing believer' who claims to be born-again and departs from truth is said to have a 'false profession.' I have seen sincere people experience nervous breakdowns over their concern as to whether or not they had truly been born again or were being deceived. There used to be a well-known independent Baptist preacher who used to delight in 'saving' Baptist preachers who had 'false professions.' His name was L. R. Shelton, and he wrote a book called 'How the Lord Saved a Baptist Preacher.'

"For a number of years I struggled with this insidious teaching in my own life. Had I really believed rightly? Was I really saved? Was I truly born again? How could I have true assurance of salvation? Had I truly repented?

"The doubts, uncertainty, and fear can be paralyzing. Fundamentalists who believe 'once saved, always saved' trumpet this false doctrine, but what they are actually doing is trying to persuade themselves that it is the truth. In the quiet honesty of their hearts, they question it.

"A close friend of mine who believed the doctrine of eternal security for many years used to ask me why Catholics weren't terrified of the possibility of being lost since they lacked the assurance that he possessed. I would explain to him that Catholics neither presume God's grace or despair of it.

"I would ask him if he believed that he was created in the image and likeness of God, and he would affirm that he did. It was easy at that point to demonstrate the reality of free will in our experience and as an attribute that we possess as children of God. "

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 14, 2011 at 3:37pm

One of the mistakes made by people from both sides of this issue is that they tend to believe they understand the other sides position, but are in error when they assume that all in the opposing camp believe one certain way regarding the theme. Most tend to believe this regarding thier camp too. There are many variatians in both camps. Some believe you can lose your salvation by failure to work. Others believe you lose your salvation if you cease to believe. Still others believe you can only lose it if you choose to walk away of freewill. Some believe you don't really lose it because you never really have it until the end. On the other side we see people who believe you are predestined and have no choice in the matter, God simply saves you. Others believe God has given freedom to choose, but once you choose and are changed this transformation cannot be undone.

 

Thus, even the debate over one or the other is really a wider debate than most believe. David V. and I agree on a lot of things, but we disagree on some others. We both believe in eternal security, but disagree on the depth of predestination, yet we love each other in the Lord. Those of you who believe you can lose your salvation make me chuckle at times when you say amen to each other and yet, you really don't even agree on how a person can lose it, just that they can lose it. I have been here long enough and listened to most of you who chime in on this debate to have a good handle on where most are coming from if they have been invovled in this deate much at all. Sorry, but most of the "Lose Your Salvation" people would be arguing another issue with each other if you took the time and noticed what each other believed about losing it. The only thing most of you agree on is that you can lose it, not how you lose it ...

 

Food for thought.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on February 15, 2011 at 6:57am

LT,

 

You said you feel sorry for those who fear they might  loose their salvation...

I guess, one can say the same about those who are never sure if they are really saved in the first place, dont you think?

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 15, 2011 at 7:06am

Yael,

 

If that were the context of our discussion I would have surely have added it, but since it was not, I stayed within the confines of the discussion at hand. And, yes, I feel sorry for you too as you can only say at this moment that you are safe, but not saved, for in your belief system you do not know what tomorrow brings for your soul.

 

BTW, my hope rests on Jesus now and through out all of eternity.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on February 14, 2011 at 10:34pm

David, do you understand the context of the Book of Hebrews?

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 22, 2011 at 12:43pm

Hi Scribe

 

Wasn't sure which David you were referring to, but must be me! :-)

 

I understand to an extent, but more light is shining on this through discussions here on AAG, which has also prompted me to do more reading/research.

 

I am by no means an expert on any Biblical subject, but am learning as I go along. Thanks for all the comments...

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 22, 2011 at 1:51pm

David Abel,

 

Your response above blesses me deeply. A teachable spirit is a must and the fact that you are doing more reading and research is simply wonderful.

 

Blessings

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 23, 2011 at 7:29am

Hi David V.

 

Thanks, I also appreciate you and your comments... (even though I do not agree on certain views you come across as holding w.r.t. God's election/foreknowing/predestination...)

 

But as LT likes to say... All is good!

 

:-)

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 23, 2011 at 9:42am

Dave-

 

I bet we have wayyyyyyy more things in common in our faith than not. So my bro, indeed like a wise man stated (our beloved LT) is all good bro. The differences we have are minute. WE both preach Repent and believe and that Christ is the ONLY way. So we are one in Spirit and essentials.

 

The true meaning of foreknowledge/predestination and election will bless our lives, but is not the bond that helps us love one another nor what keeps us, that bond is JESUS himself - our portion and prize.

 

:)

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on February 28, 2011 at 12:19am

David, thanks for getting back to me. I'd like to make a point, which is by no means intended to offend anyone - but rather to shed light on the scripture for everyone to understand it better. I have written a blog post on my page that goes in to more depth, but this is a good summary. Allow me to tell a snippet of my story, to give you some background:

 

Through a long and challenging process of being part of churches with some good practices, but where bad Theology was taught, the Holy Spirit drove me to search Scripture deeply. After many years, I learned how vital it is to fully understand the context of each particular book and the intent of the verse to the original reader.

 

My first point is this: before I can understand and apply what Scripture means to me, now – I must first understand what that passage meant to the recipient, back then.

 

Hebrews, which you have quoted in your question, is one of the most misunderstood books of scripture, chiefly because it is rarely read in its context. In fact, if you do not understand the full context, you will completely misread many parts of the book. So, let’s look at that.

1. The book is specifically written to a select ethnic audience, unlike any other book in the New Testament. Verse One of Chapter One says to the audience “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets …” (Heb 1:1 NIV).

So, the book is written by a Jew, to Jews. (Hence we call the book “Hebrews”). Let’s not forget that. This begs the question: why would an apostle single out Jews for this specific book? There is a very simple and profound reason, which colors the meaning of everything shared therein.

1. Therefore, what is the topic, the reason for this particular book to be written? We see that demonstrated in Hebrews 2:1 “We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard…”.  

So, apparently what was happening is that some Jewish Christians were failing to take heed to what Jesus had taught. They were in danger of falling away. But, falling away to what? To sinful pagan lifestyles? Hardly. They were in danger of falling away from the Savior – by going back to the Law (Torah) and thinking they could continue under the Old Covenant.

1. Notice how the first half of Chapter 3 is entirely devoted to showing the superiority of Jesus over Moses: “Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.” (Heb 3:3 NIV)
2. And in the passage from Chapter 3:16 - 4:3 he goes on to show that refusing to accept the New Covenant is as disrespectful and rebellious to God in their times, as it was disrespectful and rebellious when most of Israel refused to trust God in the Exodus, leading to their 40 years of wandering.

So, the book of Hebrews was written to Jews who were going back to temple worship, sacrificing lambs and doves and continuing to participate in the activities proscribed to the Levitical Priesthood. Rather than accepting that Jesus was sufficient sacrifice for sins. In fact, the book of Hebrews uses a term which is not mentioned to the Gentile Christians, where the writer calls the “Old Covenant” OBSOLETE (null and void) because it has been replaced with a New and Eternal Covenant.

 

So, when Hebrews is talking about Sin, Rebellion and hardness of heart. It is talking about the rebellion of refusing to accept that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, that Christ is our High Priest and that He alone is the only Savior, the only acceptable sacrifice for sins. The writer is saying that going back to the Law of Moses, is like Israel in the desert when they wanted to go back to Egypt.

 

Recognizing all of this, you can now see how there is so much rhetorical thinking and references to the sacrifices of the Old Covenant, in the book of Hebrews. The writer is using Rabbinical teaching style to explain to a bunch of stiff-necked 1^st Century Jews that they need to turn to Jesus as “the Author and Finisher of our faith” (Heb 12:2) because He is the “Author of Eternal Salvation” (Heb 5:9).

 

 

The entire point of the book is a rebuke to the very same people who were telling the Galatians that they needed to be circumcised. But, those points have to be made from a Hebrew/Jewish context in order to be fully understood by the Jews who were tempted to go back to the obsolete system of Moses.

 

Understanding that all takes some digestion, but once you do, it makes it clear that the only “unforgivable sin” is the sin of refusing to accept that Christ is the acceptable sacrifice for sins and that He has indeed pronounced forgiveness on the whole world and that He is the only Savior. In other words, if we try to devise any additional means to save ourselves, we have in fact failed to accept His salvation.

 

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 28, 2011 at 2:43am

Thanks Scribe. I appreciate the extra info you have given. It makes sense and I am understanding things pertaining to the book of Hebrews better now.

 

God Bless,

David A.

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