Once saved always saved?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 9, 2011 at 12:40pm

David A.,

 

What I am reading is a different way of saying a person can lose their salvation and attempting to align it with a Calvinistic view. The predestined will be saved eteranlly, because they have been called and they endured unto the end. Everyone else was able to be saved, sort-of, but fell away and lost it because they were not really called.

 

It that the gist of your POV?

 

Lord Bless,

LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 9, 2011 at 1:15pm

Hi LT. I am not familiar with the Calvinistic view, so I Googled it quickly just now. :-)

 

If I understood it correctly from scanning through the info, then I am not trying to align anything to the Calvinistic view.

 

What I am saying is that God's foreknowing is directly linked to the truth and sincerity of people's hearts, which He searches out and tests over time, as even though He is outside of time but we are existing in time. We are not robots, we all are definitely sinners in need of salvation (which is made available to us in Jesus Christ), and we DO have the ability to choose Jesus Christ of our own free will. We are not foreknown/predestined according to a pre-plan of God's. We are foreknown/predestined according to God knowing the end from the beginning and knowing who will really choose Him in truth, and remain faithful even up to the end.

 

God Bless,

David A.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 9, 2011 at 2:06pm

David A.,

 

Some things you believe I am not grasping your POV on.

 

Are you saying that some people are eternally secure because God makes them eternally secure no matter what or are those people are eternally secure because they endure to the end?

 

Are you saying that the people you believe receive salvation and lose it, lose it because ...?

 

Do you see two distinct groups regarding salvation? Some eternally secure and some in jeopardy?

 

Lord Bless,

LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 12, 2011 at 1:36pm

Hi LT

"Are you saying that some people are eternally secure because God makes them eternally secure no matter what or are those people are eternally secure because they endure to the end?"

They are eternally secure because they endure to the end.

 

Your other questions are answered in my thoughts below.

 

• There are two groups of people in this world. Those who make heaven and those who make hell.

 

• Those who make heaven are the foreknown and eternally saved/secure in Jesus Christ.
  • By God’s foreknowing of people, their choices and hearts, knowing their end from the beginning, God can give extraordinary, over and above divine grace and assistance to help the foreknown/predestined make it to the end and present them blameless before God’s presence. This would appear as God’s sovereignty overriding the free will of the foreknown to stray from God, but I believe that the foreknown, by virtue of their hearts being fully for God, would not stray from God of their own free will anyway. Maybe through weakness of the flesh, immaturity, lack of deliverance, etc. but never of their own free will. They are also not automatic end products of Godly character. God still shapes them. They must still fight the good fight of faith. They must still fight the flesh and the devil. They must still heed all the warnings and instructions in God’s Word. God foreknows their faithfulness till the end, but they still exist in time and have to grow and mature step by step.

 

• Those who make hell are further divided into two groups:

 

1. Those who never accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour either by never hearing the gospel, hence never had the opportunity; or heard the gospel and rejected it, and consequently Jesus Christ.

• By God’s foreknowing of people, their choices and hearts, knowing their end from the beginning, God can begin to deal with these people to destroy them at any time. He gives them over to their wickedness. He hardens their (already wicked and corrupt) hearts to seal their destruction. He can use them to accomplish His purposes and will, e.g. Pharaoh.

 

2. Those who heard the gospel, accepted it and were very much Christian in all senses of the word, but never endured to the end and ended up in hell rather than in heaven. The controversial group of either never saved at all (OSAS view) or saved and lost it/rejected it thereafter (anti-OSAS view).

• By God’s foreknowing of people, their choices and hearts, knowing their end from the beginning, God gives these ones a fair chance to be eternally saved, making all provision for them through the Cross, the Blood of Jesus, leading and guidance under other true believers and leaders, positions and functions in the Church, manifold instructions and warnings in His Word to remain faithful, endure, etc. till the end, but at the end when they don’t make it anyway of their own doing, they are without excuse before God on judgement day, and they will receive their just judgement by the Righteous Judge, who is now justified to judge and condemn them. God can use them to fulfil prophecy and to accomplish His purposes, e.g. Judas, and they remain without excuse for their actions at the end of the day.

 

P.S. The problems I see with the OSAS view that these people were never really saved in the first place:

• It makes salvation that is also fully available for ALL in Jesus Christ a difficult thing to lay hold of. If, as the OSAS view emphatically states, salvation needs absolutely no work on the part of the convert/new Christian, then why is so much work needed on the part of the person to lay hold of salvation? This belief is putting work and effort into attaining salvation. How much IS actually needed on the part of the convert to be saved, when looking at all the scriptures pertaining to salvation?
• It presumes too much on the part of those referred to in anti-OSAS scriptures, especially the ones where the former convert/Christian and/or his actions are described in Holy Spirit inspired terms/words as believed, turned back to the truth and saved from death, known the way of righteousness (an unbeliever/unsaved person cannot know the way of righteousness), sanctified by the Blood of Jesus, really repented (because they cannot be renewed again to their first repentance), connected as branches to Jesus Christ Himself, planted as a fig tree in the owner’s vineyard as the owner awaits fruit from it, forgiven their debts by their master but could not forgive others debts themselves (therefore the master then put back the previously forgiven debts back into effect), and many other anti-OSAS scriptures. My observation is that many of these verses are automatically discarded by OSAS view proponents citing that such scriptures are quoted out of context, but this is in many cases an excuse as unsatisfactory or no further explanations are given concerning some anti-OSAS verses.
• If these people were never saved at any point, it introduces contradiction to the verses in 2 Corinth 6:14-18, in that true believers should not be mixed with unbelievers, sons and daughters of the Heavenly Father (vs 18) should not mix with children of the devil (vs 15). If these people who are so “Christianized” are never really saved at any time, then why do the true believers/children of God associate themselves with such, sometimes for many years? Not so, but rather at the point of these turning away from truth, straying, deceiving others, teaching false doctrines, being involved in sin, etc., only at that point does God instruct turning them back, admonishing them, and/or separation/expulsion of them from us and the church. If they were never saved at the beginning why were we true believers mixed with them for so long, as friends and in the Church?
• If these people were never saved at any time, then God’s warnings against falling away, and to endure till the end, etc. serve no purpose to this group of people, but these warnings actually exist in order for God to be justified when He judges and condemns them in the end. God will judge these people based on the availability of His salvation to them, they having laid hold of it, continuing unto various levels of maturity/spirituality, then falling away, making God’s judgement upon their lives fully justified and effective by them ignoring the manifold warnings in God’s Word against such behaviour.

 God Bless,

David

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 12, 2011 at 3:02pm

David A.,

 

They are eternally secure because they endure to the end.

Eternal security does not teach anything less than people endure to the end. It is the foolishness of some who proclaim that the eternal secure think they can live anyway they want without consequence. The journey to the end may have times of rebellion followed by divine discipline and restoration to the path. There may also be dry seasons when God seems far away or silent. During these times God never ceases to be Father and us His children who are born-again.

 

 

Your other questions are answered in my thoughts below.

 

There are two groups of people in this world. Those who make heaven and those who make hell.

Agreed.

 

Group 1: Those who make heaven are the foreknown and eternally saved/secure in Jesus Christ.

By God’s foreknowing of people, their choices and hearts, knowing their end from the beginning, God can give extraordinary, over and above divine grace and assistance to help the foreknown/predestined make it to the end and present them blameless before God’s presence.

This does not require extraordinary grace, but simply God’s grace that is manifested to the person’s life through the new birth.

 

This would appear as God’s sovereignty overriding the free will of the foreknown to stray from God, but I believe that the foreknown, by virtue of their hearts being fully for God, would not stray from God of their own free will anyway.

This is one of the main debates between Calvinist and Armenians. Except, both recognize seasons of rebellion and dry seasons.

 

Maybe through weakness of the flesh, immaturity, lack of deliverance, etc. but never of their own free will. They are also not automatic end products of Godly character. God still shapes them. They must still fight the good fight of faith. They must still fight the flesh and the devil. They must still heed all the warnings and instructions in God’s Word. God foreknows their faithfulness till the end, but they still exist in time and have to grow and mature step by step.

This in essence is nothing more than the sanctification process. Eternal security does not negate the need to grow, mature and live the right way.

 

Group 2: Those who make hell are further divided into two groups:

 

1. Those who never accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour either by never hearing the gospel, hence never had the opportunity; or heard the gospel and rejected it, and consequently Jesus Christ.

By God’s foreknowing of people, their choices and hearts, knowing their end from the beginning, God can begin to deal with these people to destroy them at any time. He gives them over to their wickedness. He hardens their (already wicked and corrupt) hearts to seal their destruction. He can use them to accomplish His purposes and will, e.g. Pharaoh.

God gives man liberties and at the same time has the sovereign authority to override at any moment to fulfill His purposes. He can bring to destruction anyone or thing at any time where He has not given a specific prophecy binding Himself by His own word. By this, I mean that the end will not come before the appointed time as prophesied, but man can die at God’s undisclosed appointed time. He may choose to destroy a city (Sodom and Gomorrah) at His discretion. At the same time we see many verses that tell us that the rain falls on the wicked and the righteous, that the righteous and wicked grow together, etc.

 

2. Those who heard the gospel, accepted it and were very much Christian in all senses of the word, but never endured to the end and ended up in hell rather than in heaven. The controversial group of either never saved at all (OSAS view) or saved and lost it/rejected it thereafter (anti-OSAS view).

This is your POV and cannot be proven. If it could this discussion would be over and everyone would believe that people can lose their salvation.

 

By God’s foreknowing of people, their choices and hearts, knowing their end from the beginning, God gives these ones a fair chance to be eternally saved, making all provision for them through the Cross, the Blood of Jesus, leading and guidance under other true believers and leaders, positions and functions in the Church, manifold instructions and warnings in His Word to remain faithful, endure, etc. till the end, but at the end when they don’t make it anyway of their own doing, they are without excuse before God on judgement day, and they will receive their just judgement by the Righteous Judge, who is now justified to judge and condemn them. God can use them to fulfil prophecy and to accomplish His purposes, e.g. Judas, and they remain without excuse for their actions at the end of the day.

Prove from Scripture that one person verified as saved fell away from God and ended up in hell. Do this and the discussion is over. It cannot be done. We can see external things that lead people to assume they were saved, but God does not look to the external. He sees the heart. Judas cannot be viewed as saved. There is too much Scripture that points to just the opposite. Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 are never acknowledge as Christians and cannot be proven to be born-again. These people remain without excuse because they were born into sin and committed sin. They did not come to salvation and were not born-again, thus they cannot have lost what they never had.

 

What happens when a person gets saved? Are they simply forgiven or are they truly born-again from above (John 3)? We often miss the process of life lived out in salvation. A person is first justified (forgiven), then sanctified (life long process) and third glorified (Christ’s return and our resurrection with new bodies).

 

If one can lose their salvation they can never proclaim they are saved, but only safe.

 

P.S. The problems I see with the OSAS view that these people were never really saved in the first place:

It makes salvation that is also fully available for ALL in Jesus Christ a difficult thing to lay hold of. If, as the OSAS view emphatically states, salvation needs absolutely no work on the part of the convert/new Christian, then why is so much work needed on the part of the person to lay hold of salvation?

I don’t get your point. Faith is required. This is not a work, but a gift of God by His grace. The Bible tells us that no one come to Jesus unless the Father draws them and no one sees the Father unless the Son revels Him. The work is God’s and the opening of a person’s spiritual eyes is the work of the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the gospel message. John tells us that there are people who prefer the dark over the light.

 

This belief is putting work and effort into attaining salvation. How much IS actually needed on the part of the convert to be saved, when looking at all the scriptures pertaining to salvation?

One word – Surrender.

 

It presumes too much on the part of those referred to in anti-OSAS scriptures, especially the ones where the former convert/Christian and/or his actions are described in Holy Spirit inspired terms/words as believed, turned back to the truth and saved from death, known the way of righteousness (an unbeliever/unsaved person cannot know the way of righteousness), sanctified by the Blood of Jesus, really repented (because they cannot be renewed again to their first repentance), connected as branches to Jesus Christ Himself, planted as a fig tree in the owner’s vineyard as the owner awaits fruit from it, forgiven their debts by their master but could not forgive others debts themselves (therefore the master then put back the previously forgiven debts back into effect), and many other anti-OSAS scriptures. My observation is that many of these verses are automatically discarded by OSAS view proponents citing that such scriptures are quoted out of context, but this is in many cases an excuse as unsatisfactory or no further explanations are given concerning some anti-OSAS verses.

None of the verses are discarded as you presume. They are addressed in various discussions here over and over again. The explanations given are unsatisfactory to those who wish to reject eternal security. At the same time the same accusation can be levied against those who believe you can lose your salvation. They reject, dismiss or unsatisfactorily attempt to explain away verses that guarantee the eternal security of the child of God.

 

If these people were never saved at any point, it introduces contradiction to the verses in 2 Corinth 6:14-18, in that true believers should not be mixed with unbelievers, sons and daughters of the Heavenly Father (vs 18) should not mix with children of the devil (vs 15). If these people who are so “Christianized” are never really saved at any time, then why do the true believers/children of God associate themselves with such, sometimes for many years?

Because the wheat and the tare look identical until harvest.

 

Not so, but rather at the point of these turning away from truth, straying, deceiving others, teaching false doctrines, being involved in sin, etc., only at that point does God instruct turning them back, admonishing them, and/or separation/expulsion of them from us and the church. If they were never saved at the beginning why were we true believers mixed with them for so long, as friends and in the Church?

If these people were never saved at any time, then God’s warnings against falling away, and to endure till the end, etc. serve no purpose to this group of people, but these warnings actually exist in order for God to be justified when He judges and condemns them in the end.

Some leave who were never a part of the body as John mentions. Name one person identified as saved who died and was proclaimed as hell bound. This is such an important issue that surely God would not remain silent about a person getting born-again for the second or third time if that were the case?

God’s justification for condemning anyone to hell is sin. The only answer to sin is Jesus’ blood. Again, we can address individual verses once again, but I will not attempt to address the broad brush statement here.

 

God will judge these people based on the availability of His salvation to them, they having laid hold of it, continuing unto various levels of maturity/spirituality, then falling away, making God’s judgement upon their lives fully justified and effective by them ignoring the manifold warnings in God’s Word against such behaviour.

His justice is not meted out based on availability to salvation, but simply on the lostness of man.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 12, 2011 at 11:17pm

Hi LT. Thanks for your further clarification on some points and disagreement still on others.

 

I understand the arguments used by OSAS proponents for many other anti-OSAS view scriptures used. However, two anti-OSAS verses still puzzle me as to how they would not contradict the OSAS view:

 

1. Please clarify “sanctified” as it appears in Heb 10:29, where the person being referred to had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. Sanctified? By whose blood? Which covenant? I would say that it was by the Blood of Jesus under the new covenant, taking the full context of these verses into account. But how was he sanctified, and then thought worthy of being punished (worse than without mercy) for counting that very same blood a common thing?

 

You mentioned some things regarding sanctification, which Heb 10:29 seems to contradict.

“This in essence is nothing more than the sanctification process.”

“A person is first justified (forgiven), then sanctified (life long process) and third glorified (Christ’s return and our resurrection with new bodies).”

 

2. Php 2:12-13. Even though it is God who works in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure (vs 13), what does the preceding verse really mean? The words that really stand out – work out, your own salvation, with fear and trembling. Is this a reference to the sanctification process? God’s work or our work? Define “work out”? What is “our own salvation”? Why with “fear and trembling”? I really want to understand this properly. I also agree with no works needed to attain salvation, only faith, but the verse Php 2:12 is referring to something very specific, that I want to lay hold of and understand well.

 

Anyone who can help here, I would appreciate it.

 

God Bless,

David A.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 13, 2011 at 2:02am

David A.,

 

As we continue to look at these things I will add to what David V. has posted below the following:

 

Regarding Hebrews 10:29 and the surrounding verses I would ask that you read them in context. Who is the author writting to? What is their understanding of the Mosaic Law regarding sanctification. Taking this into account and understanding their complete rejection of the blood of Jesus as either unholy or common which tells us that they are not saved, nor ever saved. This is not a change in heart or simply a reaction, it is revealed that they hold the blood of Jesus in no higher regard than the blood of the animals killed in the old system which were used sin and for sanctification. They want to return to the old system because they do not trust that the blood of Jesus saves eternally. Today many people accept that Jesus died, but struggle with He died once for sin and that no further sacrifice or work is required to be saved. This is where people really get confused. Faith in Jesus is required for salvation and that faith must be in the right things regarding Jesus, or you have the wrong Jesus. It is not enough to simply say I accept Jesus, what does that really mean?

 

Regarding Philippians we see the following as revealed through the Amplified Bible:

¹²Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, ^[i]with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

    ¹³[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while ^[j]effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and ^[k]delight.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 13, 2011 at 7:48am

Hi David V. and LT

 

Thanks for your replies, appreciated. It is most interesting, to say the least.

 

I still believe that OSAS is too controversial a title and will continue to be, and I will always associate it with OFAF (once foreknown, always foreknown) from now on, as eternal salvation only applies to the foreknown/predestined/elect. Irrespective of what view anyone holds regarding predestination, the sovereignty of God, free will of man, etc., I believe that they all come together anyway in the foreknown/elect being eternally saved at the end.

 

On a different note, the views discussed in such a topic makes me wonder how someone in a village somewhere, or in a communist country, if given a Bible and no outside help or information would be able to correctly intepret many scriptures. Not just for such people, but for many of us also, coming from different backgrounds, different religions, different countries, different races, different spiritual foundations, different churches, have had different teachings growing up, can come to complete and full knowledge of the Word of God and it's many topics.

 

I know the main thing is being saved in Jesus Christ, knowing it, loving Him and living your faith in a way that pleases Him; and everything else is secondary / of not much importance really, especially if it draws us away from God / causes strife/division.

 

Still, it doesn't hurt increasing in Godly knowledge and in the Bible's topics, especially as one grows and matures in Jesus Christ, and as God makes the information/teachings available.

 

In all of this, God reminded me of the sinner on the cross next to Jesus Christ, who believed in Him truly, and said a simple, "Lord, remember me when you come into Your kingdom," and Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." This man had not confessed his sins, been baptized, taught, trained or discipled, yet He was the first of the foreknown/elect to die after Jesus' sacrifice. What a humbling thought to think that the foreknown/elect, eternally saved are characters that are at first glance disdained and rejected as worthless, and indeed the more I think about it, I want to have the simple faith of that worthless (according to the world's standard) sinner on the cross next to Jesus. And also to value people like never before, like God does.

 

Luk 23:39

Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

Luk 23:40

But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?

Luk 23:41

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."

Luk 23:42

Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

Luk 23:43

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

 

God Bless,

David A.

Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 13, 2011 at 12:24pm

Clarification from my side on my previous post about "different religions" - I meant coming from different religions and now converted and saved, no longer in those other religions.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 13, 2011 at 1:37pm

David A.,

 

I don't like the term OSAS and do not use it anymore, with rare exception. I teach and preach eternal security.

 

All is good, time for me to move on ...

 

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 7, 2011 at 4:42am

David,

Don't know if this will help you or not but....

something I have noticed through my study of the Bible is  that...if the writer is speaking to/of Christians, he uses the first and second person. If he is speaking of unbelievers, he uses the third person (they, her, him). 

For example: Heb 6:4-6 

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6  if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

However this may not be the case in all instances...Heb 10:26

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

In vs 26 the writer refers to a person who has heard the Word and receives it, but rebels against it, the saving knowledge of Christ Jesus.

 

I believe that no one can accept Christ and then turn his back on his salvation. Reason: once a person becomes born again, regenerated, he is a new creature, he has a new spirit, he has Holy Spirit dwelling in him. I don't believe Holy Spirit would allow this turn to happen.

Blessings to you...

Rita

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 7, 2011 at 2:03pm

Hi Rita. Thanks, this is a good observation and will help as I read the Bible in future.

 

God Bless,

David

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 7
• 8
• 9
• 10
• 11
• …
• 24
• Next ›
• Page