DOES ONE GOD MAKE A TRINITY?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on December 12, 2010 at 5:11am

O Come, All Ye Faithful

 

Who is Jesus? Some say He was a created being but some of us say, He is Christ the Lord.

 

This is the Christmas season. Our minds go to family, friends, shopping, ball games and, of course, I hope to Christ. For us in America, the greatest season of the year is the Christmas season. We, at one time, were a Christian nation and nothing was more important to us than our Savior. Just Who is this One that came some 2,000 years ago that wonderful Christmas morning?

 

We sing a beautiful hymn, “O Come, All Ye Faithful” every Christmas. What is the message of the song? It is a song of worship. We sing:

O come, all ye faithful, joyful and triumphant,
O come ye, O come ye, to Bethlehem.
Come and behold Him, born the King of angels;

Refrain

O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord.

 

And then, after several verses, we conclude:

Yea, Lord, we greet Thee, born this happy morning;
Jesus, to Thee be glory given;
Word of the Father, now in flesh appearing.

 

This is obviously a song of praise – a song of worship to Christ the Lord, God in flesh. There are those that would be very critical of our worship of Jesus. We obviously see Him as Lord. We worship Him as Lord. Those who would say that He is a created being would warn us to stop worshipping Him as Lord. I think of the Pharisees, the teachers of the Law as Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that Sunday before His death and then went into the Temple, His disciples and the children began to cry out, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they were very indignant. “Do you hear what these are saying,” they asked.

 

Hosanna was a form of worship and prayer to God for help. The Jews were indignant at this form of worship to Jesus and asked Him to rebuke them for this praise. Jesus never denied Who He was. He accepted praise and worship from His followers.

 

Jn 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

36 "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."

37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."

38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. NIV

 

If Jesus was just a created being, why would He accept worship? Angels and responsible men will all reject the worship of man. Jesus never did. This is only one example of Him receiving the worship of those who believe in Him. A very high form of praise and worship to Christ can be found in Revelation:

Rv 5:11-13

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they sang:

"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,

to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength

and honor and glory and praise!"

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb

be praise and honor and glory and power,

      for ever and ever!" NIV

 

Here we can see praise and worship to God our Father and unto Jesus our Lord by every creature in heaven and on earth. This kind of worship and praise cannot be given to a created being. This type of praise is reserved only for God. He is worthy of our praise. God is worthy. We praise their plan, actions and being. We reserve our worship to God.

 

There will be no Pharisee there on that day rebuking His disciples for their worship. Are we correct in singing this Christmas phrase, “O come let us adore Him?” Obviously the worship of Jesus is very Scriptural and should be continued. If we stop, the rocks will cry out and don’t ever let it be said that we caused the rocks to start singing.

 

Who is he that would say that we shouldn’t worship our Lord? He is an anti-Christ. He is the one that has denied that God has come in the flesh. “Word of the Father, now in flesh appearing, O come let us adore Him.”

 

“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1) There is no error in worshipping Him. It is proper. The angels worshipped Him. The shepherds and wise men worshipped Him. The children and His disciples worshipped Him and now we worship Him. The worship is proper for as was told the shepherds in the field as they watched their sheep on that wondrous night, “He is Christ, the Lord.”

 

Douglas, He is the Lord and before you can be saved from your sins, you must worship Him as Christ the Lord for He has come to save His people from their sins. All who receive Him and the forgiveness of their sins must come before Him, bow their knees and worship Him. The wise men worshipped Him then and they still worship Him today. Yes, the Jews denied Who He was. I pray that you will not. His sheep know His voice.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on December 12, 2010 at 7:36am

Douglas,

I know you struggle to worship Him as Christ the Lord. I pray that you will come to understand that the Lord of the Old Testament has come to us to save us from our sins. He is our Shepherd. Yes, God is One. We cannot begin to understand but there is no other. We cannot worship another. The Jews could not receive Him. They could not understand what was there for them in Scripture all along. They refused to accept the One that came to them to forgive them of their sin. The problem then was as it is now. They saw Him as a mere man. He looked just like one of them. They just could not accept that He was the Lord of Scripture. Jesus, Who was God, became a man and became subservient to the Father. What He did, He had to do as a man. A man had to pay the price but no man could. Only He could accomplish this for us. He did come and He did gain for us salvation. As Josh McDowell has said, He is either a liar, lunatic or Lord. I believe He is the Lord. You must decide for yourself. I pray you choose to accept Him as Lord.

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 12, 2010 at 2:15pm

Douglas.

 

I have cut and will pasted here multiple statements found throughout this discussion made by you.

 

>>It was a creation of man with the backing of Lucifer. It was an attempt and succesfully presented to inject polytheism into christianity just as it has been injected into other religion.

 

>>The presentation of the trinity has been a platform that Lucifer has used to interject ploytheism into the church. God is one not three

 

You are attributing God’s nature to a concoction of Satan be careful of making such hideous and erroneous statements Sir. You are slandering the nature of God. He is not happy about that. In your biblical pursuit you think you have been enlightened to the truth, but your arguments are very old and have been beat up every time they surface and the truth prevails. Each generation feels when they believe as you have that they are in the minority of the truth and that they are swimming against the current of the adulterous church and this gives them a sense of suffering persecution, but this are old beat up arguments that you are bringing up. The fact that God is three in one is obvious. I understand that they are new to you and that is fine, but please do not insult the intelligence of brilliant, gifted scholars throughout the church age. God is able to keep His truth and He has.

 

>>God uses the word us in Genesis 1:26 . Here he is talking to Angels his supreme ministers of his word,not to the other persons as you see it in the trinity.

 

Since when has God told and angel we should go here and there? Since when do we believe God use angels to create the universe? Are you that misinformed and brainwashed that you believe such fallacies?

 

John 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood^a it.

 

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

 

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

 

>>This is later explained and directy connected to Genesis 3 22-24 when he ordered these two mighty angels(cherubims) to guard the entrance to the garden of eden.

 

How in the world are those texts connected and how do they explain 1:26. That is an embarrassing statement to the art of hermeneutics. Believe me I am not trying to be mean just find these types of statements insulting, to the church of Christ and to historical Christianity.

  

John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

 

You still don’t recognize him.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 15, 2010 at 3:40am

Romans 9:5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

 

Romans 9:5 (New King James Version)

⁵ of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

 

Romans 9:5 (New International Version, ©2010)

⁵ Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

 

We have here a remarkable passage, -- that in Christ two natures are in such a manner distinguished, that they are at the same time united in the very person of Christ: for by saying that Christ had descended from the Jews, he declared his real humanity. The words according to the flesh, which are added, imply that he had something superior to flesh; and here seems to be an evident distinction made between humanity and divinity. But he at last connects both together, where he says, that the Christ, who had descended from the Jew's according to the flesh, is God blessed for ever.

 

We must further observe, that this kind of praise belongs to none but only to the true and eternal God; for he declares in another place, (1 Timothy 1:17) that it is the true God alone to whom honor and glory are due. They who break off this clause from the previous context, that they may take away from Christ so clear a testimony to his divinity, most presumptuously attempt, to introduce darkness in the midst of the clearest light; for the words most evidently mean this, -- Christ, who is from the Jews according to the flesh, is God blessed for ever And I doubt not, but that Paul, who had to contend hard with a reproach urged against him, did designedly raise up his own mind to the contemplation of the eternal glory of Christ; nor did he do this so much for his own sake individually, as for the purpose of encouraging others by his example to raise up their thoughts. Calvin

Permalink Reply by RoyW on December 15, 2010 at 3:46am

What is sad and wonderful at the same time is the extreme sacrifice that Christ made for us. Was that place of God something for Him to desire? Was it something that He could not alter to come and obtain for us our salvation? When we see Christ, we will see Him as the disciples did after His resurrection. He will be on the throne but His personage has been forever changed. I shutter to think of His love. I don't know how I will act. I won't know what to say. What do you say to a person that has done for you what this person has done? I am convinced that I won't be able to speak. I won't even be able to say, "Thank you." I will be speechless in His presence.

 

He, Who was God, became a man. Please, Douglas, do not diminish His sacrifice. He stepped down but you have Him stepping up. I am amazed by His love and I do not know how to respond. There are no words to express my feelings towards Him. I am offended when some make Him less than He was and is. He is the supreme example of love. David had before talked about Moses' and Paul's desire to become less that their brothers might become more. The difference, however, is that Jesus did. I am silenced by His actions.

 

Praise be to the One Who was slain.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 15, 2010 at 4:31am

Words fall like drops of rain
My lips are like clouds
I say so many things
Trying to figure you out
But as mercy opens my eyes
My words are stolen away
With this breathtaking view of your grace

And I am speechless I’m astonished and amazed
I am silenced by your wondrous grace
You have saved me
You have raised me from the grave
And I am speechless in your presence now
I’m astounded as I consider how
You have shown us
A love that leaves us speechless


So what kind of love could this be
That would trade heaven’s throne for a cross
And to think you still celebrate
Over finding just one who was lost
And to know you rejoice over us
The God of this whole universe
It’s a story that’s too great for words

Oh how great is the love
The father has lavished upon us
That we should be called
The sons and the daughters of god

We are speechless so amazed
We stand in awe of your grace
We stand in awe of your mercy
You have saved us
We stand in awe of your love
From the grave
We are speechless

We are speechless in your presence now
We stand in awe of your cross
We’re astounded as we consider how
We stand in awe of your power
You have shown us
A love that leaves us speechless
We are speechless

I am speechless

Permalink Reply by RoyW on December 15, 2010 at 5:50am

David, you are amazing. That song really sums up my feelings. This phrase explains my understanding of just who Jesus is:

So what kind of love could this be
That would trade heaven’s throne for a cross
And to think you still celebrate
Over finding just one who was lost
And to know you rejoice over us
The God of this whole universe
It’s a story that’s too great for words

 

If that doesn't take away your many words, you are not capable of being awe-struck. I have to agree with the singer that "I am speechless."

 

Amazing!

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 10, 2011 at 10:33am

Great answer.

Permalink Reply by Karen Leon on February 10, 2011 at 12:07pm

I agree, Roger, great answer.  I've just read through almost all of this discussion from the beginning. I skipped over a few places that seemed repetitious, because it is a loooong discussion.

I believe in the Trinity as God in three persons.  I agree with those who are in support of this.  I would like to add a few comments.

Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb, which is not the same thing as being created in Mary's womb.  Humans may speak of things being created, but in the sense that God created, Jesus was conceived, not created in Mary's womb.

 

As far as the claim that humans changed words in the Bible, the Jewish rabbis at some point decided that no one should speak the name of God out of fear of taking the Lord's name in vain.  This is a good example of many of the things both Jewish and Christian leaders have done to turn relationship with God into ritual/religion.  Instead of teaching the people the truth of God's Word in a way that led to better relationship with Him, they created a rule for how to avoid disrespecting God.  What the rabbis did was to teach the people and they did it themselves--say adonai--the Hebrew word for Lord--instead of God'd name--written in Scripture as using the four consonants of His name. They also made substitutions for words that were offensive.  This is called the kethibh and qere by Jews.  If you understand this, you don't get confused by what the Scripture means or need to go back and study meaning before the changes.

 

When Scripture was translated into other languages, allowances were made to note these changes.  In English LORD--all capitals--is used to show where the name of God appears in the original text, while Lord--lower case "ord" is used to show God referred to as Lord.

In seminary I was told that the Germans were the first to come up with/use Jehovah.  They took the four consonants from the name of God and added the vowels from the Hebrew word adonai to get the new word.  The pronunciation used by American's is the German word spoken in English with a German accent.  I view it as an American form of the Jewish kethibh and qere.  Unfortunately, Christians do have a bad habit of not explaining to our children and new converts the truth behind what we do and/or believe and so many do not understand/know this.

 

Finally, while Hebrew does not have a letter for "j", it does have the "j" sound when the letter named yod, which looks like a big apostrophe, occurs at the beginning of a word in some instances.

 

Finally,  just because someone does not comprehend how the Trinity works, how God can be one God in three persons, does not make it not true.  Those of us who believe in the Trinity and who have the correct understanding of its meaning do not believe in three Gods.  We know that there is one God.  Just because some people have misunderstood the teaching and/or twisted it, does not commit us to their false claims/belief.  No one has the power to define what others believe.  If anyone wants to say that they don't believe in the trinity because they do not understand it that's ok, you certainly have the right to do so.  But that same person is out of line--stereotyping even, which we all know is politically incorrect, because it assumes things are true about others, usually negative things, without proof--out of line if anyone claims that all who believe in the Trinity believe there are three Gods.  Our own definitions for what we believe are  what should be used to define our beliefs, not the definitions of those who have perverted or simply do not understand the truth.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 10, 2011 at 12:52pm

Wow! Great post!

Permalink Reply by Douglas A Pavone on February 11, 2011 at 6:29pm

Long time no post. God has shown Jesus and I have been blessed to develope a connection to him for the first time in a long time.

Jesus is God the holy spirit is God and the father is God. But the primary and only God is the father because the spirit is the father. Jesus was begotten of the father he was first.The holy spirit procedes from the father he was again first. They all are God parts of the whole which is the father.

 

 He is spirit as Jesus said he was. A spirit being and Jesus was the way that God showed himself to us, Jesus is the image of the invisible God again. Jesus is  the word of God which is the power and the wisdom of God. The holy spirit is the part of God that allows us to come into the understanding of the spirit being that is our God it is also the active force of God that connects us to God and lives in the believer making him a new creature.

 

 God has shown me that as the analogy of the body of christ eyes arms legs our father has these parts in the word of God and the holy spirit. Just as the hand touches and tells the brain what it feels like the spirit of God being God and part of God  communicates with the father who is as the mind.

 

 It says that jesus is our head and his head is God.I could go on but i think i have made a point that you should ponder. God is spirit and must be worshiprd in spirit and truth.God bless to all.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 11, 2011 at 6:50pm

Douglas,

Something has a hold on your mind. Why are you insistent to make Jesus less than He is? Do you have a pastor you can speak with? I am concerned with this post. 

Roy

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