Once saved always saved?

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 7, 2011 at 2:20am

Excellent question sis Robbin,

 

True and False Prophets

    ¹⁵ “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. ¹⁶ By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? ¹⁷ Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. ¹⁸ A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. ¹⁹ Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ²⁰ Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples

    ²¹ “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ²² Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ ²³ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

Like I have mentioned before, I do not always agree with the subtitles in bibles, but the two subtitles on these portions or Matthew 7 are correct. False prophets and false Disciples. First they are false, so even when they approach Christ they are deceived and lying, for most likely they have not done what they are proclaiming because they are liars or God was simply honoring the faith of those asking for the miracle etc...

 

Blessings

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 7, 2011 at 12:43pm

Hey beloved Roger -

 

Please bless me with a little more detail explaining what you mean by stating: "THIS IS NOT FOR TODAY." Please elaborate on how that portion of scripture is not relevant or applicable to us today.

 

Thank you bro.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 10, 2011 at 10:45am

So help me out here Roger,

 

Mat 7:23

 

THESE VERSE ARE DIRECTED TO THOSE WHO NOT TRUE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST. THIS IS NOT FOR TODAY. THIS WAS WRITTEN IN JESUS DAY. EVEN A PERSON WHO WAS NOT A TRUE FOLLOWER OF CHIRST COULD DO THE MIRACLES BECAUSE THEY DID IT IN THE NAME OF JESUS. IF YOU STUDY THE BIBLE GOD DID EVERYTHING TO HONOR HIS NAME. THE SAME IS TRUE WITH JESUS TO BRING HONOR TO HIS NAM.

 

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

   

Give me the verses that help you determine your conclusion or the Hermeneutical system you are using to arrive at such belief.

 

Thanks

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 12, 2011 at 1:30pm

I think is just a typo sis Amanda. Love you.

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Permalink Reply by Craig Baker on February 8, 2011 at 1:41pm

"discuss hot topics in love"

right on brother!

When you are brave enough take on baptism... I'll be there with you on that one as well I'm sure!

I agree we can not avoid hard topics and still be established in the truth in both primary and secondary issues.

The closer you look at tough issues the more you can see the grace "undeserved and unmerited favor" of God, -vs- the religion of man. Jesus say's to His own "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

 

 

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 12, 2011 at 10:39am

Bro Craig,

 

We have something like 7000 discussions archived and baptism has been discussed multiple times. Go to the forum and search for the word and resurrect the discussion that has to do with the topic. Do you mean Spirit Baptism or water baptism?

 

Love to you my brother. I see you have a warrior's spirit. So here is the shield of faith to quench the fiery darts.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 7, 2011 at 5:19am

Because the Bible says that if we sin willfully after we have received [from God!] the acknowledging of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment!

 

Sister LB,

The verse you have quoted here actually says knowledge instead of acknowledge. It seems a small thing and yet it makes a huge difference to what the writer is saying. If you are told something, you have knowledge of it. If you acknowledge something, you have agreed and accepted it.

 

This minor change can make a huge difference. 

My opinion is that if a person is in the Father's hand, no one can remove them, not even the person himself. And then, who would want to.

Blessings as you study and converse,

Rita

 

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 5, 2011 at 11:17am

Thanks David and LB. There’s tons of information on the other discussion that David pointed me to. I read as much as I could and received a lot of very good info. That is the main reason for my post, to get other Christians' points of view, not to start a debate or end up in circular debate / confusion.

While I better understand both viewpoints now, I have some thoughts/concerns/questions. I believe that the OSAS view, while correct in certain respects, still needs clarification / better explanation, as in its simplest form it creates a few problems:

1. I may be generalizing, but my observation has been that the OSAS view is actually detrimental to building disciplined and holy Christians. If the OSAS view can be defined / explained in such a way as to cause believers to more fully fear/revere God and be zealous for Him and His work, then this would be good, but it does not.
2. It rather opens a door for Christians to think that they have a license to sin / do whatever they want to. The OSAS view creates the impression that Christians can do whatever they want to after coming to the Lord. Instead of “working out their own salvation with fear and trembling”, (even though the next verse says “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure”), the OSAS view in its simplest form can cause delay of time for Christians to get serious about their Christian walk and work, and at worst can cause them to backslide, sin, remain stagnant, have a form of godliness but no power, get lazy, bear no fruit.
3. These secondary issues (e.g. OSAS, Pre-destination) seem to cause more damage to the body of Christ (not the debating part), in that it seems to take the responsibility away from individuals to do their part for Christ. They think, “Oh, I’m already saved, so I can do whatever I please”, or “Oh, God already knows who is His and who’s not, I don’t have a say in it, so let me do as I please”. These so-called secondary issues are extensively mentioned in scripture, so there needs to be clear-cut teaching regarding them. This however, as I can see, is easier said than done.
4. It allows the perfect excuse for lazy Christians, who do not attend church, pray or read/study the Bible, hence the OSAS view directly or indirectly creates unproductive and lazy Christians, i.e. dead weight, to the Church.
5. The scriptures quoted to support the OSAS view are taken as if it is an automatic and easy thing/process, e.g. Jud 1:24 “Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,” is not an automatic thing on the part of the believer. It requires correct choices and actions on the part of the believer. It requires work and effort on the part of the believer. The OSAS view gives reason to ease off the effort that God requires of the believer and put everything on God to build faith, add perseverance, etc. when Christians should understand and be diligent about their part/responsibility.
6. What is the definition of “saved” according to the “Once saved always saved” view? I believe that this would help to differentiate between those truly saved (true sons and daughters of God) and those wasting their time (either knowingly or unknowingly) in Christianity / in the Church, actually believing in God and claiming to be saved. The OSAS view should be more clearly defined, and the believers’ part to be attached/taught with it, i.e. fasting, prayer, Bible study, etc. I guess that in solid Churches who keep the OSAS view, this is already covered.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 5, 2011 at 2:10pm

David,

 

As I write this response to you I would like you to ponder the common information that you have been given that misrepresents the true meaning and belief behind eternal security. These claims against eternal security make illogical assumptions.

 

1. I may be generalizing, but my observation has been that the OSAS view is actually detrimental to building disciplined and holy Christians. If the OSAS view can be defined / explained in such a way as to cause believers to more fully fear/revere God and be zealous for Him and His work, then this would be good, but it does not.

Why does everyone assume that because a person is secure in God that they will automatically cease to live for God? Just the opposite is true. I have been saved from hell and unto Christ. My sins are forgiven and I have met my living Savior. He called me, loves me and has given me the Holy Spirit in order to live for Him. Security does not promote slothfulness when one has met the Great I AM, the Creator of the Universe.

 

The assumption that the man who fears being cast away will serve better than the one who knows His Lord loves Him and has secured Him is errant. What is the motivation of the one who fears being lost? Is it not fear of hell and not love for God? What is the motivation of the one who is secure? Is it not love for God instead of fear? Perfect love drives out fear.

 

2. It rather opens a door for Christians to think that they have a license to sin / do whatever they want to. The OSAS view creates the impression that Christians can do whatever they want to after coming to the Lord. Instead of “working out their own salvation with fear and trembling”, (even though the next verse says “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure”), the OSAS view in its simplest form can cause delay of time for Christians to get serious about their Christian walk and work, and at worst can cause them to backslide, sin, remain stagnant, have a form of godliness but no power, get lazy, bear no fruit.

Why do you believe that we who live with eternal security feel that we can sin and live any way we choose without consequences? That is a presupposition based on an argument designed solely in an attempt to discredit eternal security that has been around for years. The simplest view does not say we can delay or remain stagnant. The opposite is true. The true believer will desire to please His heavenly Father. To grow in grace and knowledge. They will want to reach the world for Christ. Do not look at churches that are full of dead bones and assume they represent God. Just because someone walked the aisle and said the sinners prayer does not mean they are saved. Let me say clearly. If any pastor or Christian leader tells their congregation that now that they are saved they can live any way they please I will call them a liar and a false teacher!

 

3. These secondary issues (e.g. OSAS, Pre-destination) seem to cause more damage to the body of Christ (not the debating part), in that it seems to take the responsibility away from individuals to do their part for Christ. They think, “Oh, I’m already saved, so I can do whatever I please”, or “Oh, God already knows who is His and who’s not, I don’t have a say in it, so let me do as I please”. These so-called secondary issues are extensively mentioned in scripture, so there needs to be clear-cut teaching regarding them. This however, as I can see, is easier said than done.

To be fair you only presented half of the coin regarding the secondary issues. You choose to say that eternal security causes damage, when the other side of the argument, losing salvation, is the second half of that secondary issue that is debated. No one that I know who loves Jesus and believes in eternal security has ever said anything like this. This is a fabrication that has been around for years.

 

4. It allows the perfect excuse for lazy Christians, who do not attend church, pray or read/study the Bible, hence the OSAS view directly or indirectly creates unproductive and lazy Christians, i.e. dead weight, to the Church.

One may use it as an excuse, but by their actions reveal that they are not saved to begin with and eternal security does not apply. You do not come into contact with the Lord of lords and King of Kings personally and then dismiss Him as irrelevant. Jesus is also Lord of our life or He is not Savior either.

 

5. The scriptures quoted to support the OSAS view are taken as if it is an automatic and easy thing/process, e.g. Jud 1:24 “Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,” is not an automatic thing on the part of the believer. It requires correct choices and actions on the part of the believer. It requires work and effort on the part of the believer. The OSAS view gives reason to ease off the effort that God requires of the believer and put everything on God to build faith, add perseverance, etc. when Christians should understand and be diligent about their part/responsibility.

Again a misrepresentation. The Work of salvation is all Gods. We are called to respond to that salvation by living for Jesus and fulfilling the good works we were created for. Our response is not to retain salvation, but because of it.

 

6. What is the definition of “saved” according to the “Once saved always saved” view? I believe that this would help to differentiate between those truly saved (true sons and daughters of God) and those wasting their time (either knowingly or unknowingly) in Christianity / in the Church, actually believing in God and claiming to be saved. The OSAS view should be more clearly defined, and the believers’ part to be attached/taught with it, i.e. fasting, prayer, Bible study, etc. I guess that in solid Churches who keep the OSAS view, this is already covered.

Who says that the true believer does not teach that there is a right way to live? To be saved means one has come through grace by faith to a point of repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. They are born-again of the spirit, changed, sealed, marked and indwelt. They are no longer children of Adam, but children of God. They have a new family and new citizenship and a new name. They have God as their Father. Salvation is not improving on the old man, salvation is God creating a new man (spiritually).

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 7, 2011 at 2:38pm

LB,

 

I will attempt to summarize and be brief in my response.

 

We agree (I believe) on the following:
-We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works.

-Once a person is saved they are called to holy living.

-A believer is not called to indifference or rebellion.

 

We disagree on the following:

-The type of fear and to be more specific.

--1) The definition of fear as applied to the believer.

--2) The cause, focus and purpose of that fear.

-The following is meant to illustrate the contrast from what you said to what I believe:

--LB Said: I believe we cannot shirk our Christian responsibility to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world and then expect God to not reject us, after all the trouble Jesus has gone through to save us. (LB sees loss of salvation)

--LT Believes: I believe we cannot shirk our Christian responsibility to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world and then expect God to not discipline us. (LT sees preserved and disciplined as a child of the heavenly Father).

 

This is the basic points of our differences. I am sure there are others, but I highlighted these.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 5, 2011 at 11:17am

I would still like to clear up a few things that seem to point against the OSAS view:

1. To be saved according to scripture is easy, simply a matter of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ together with true confession, repentance and turning away from sin. Then the work begins. Then the attacks begin. Then we are tested and tried. All manner of trials and tribulations manifest. The devil intensifies his efforts and tries to take us back into lies, darkness and sin. In the process of all this happening, Christians can become disillusioned, discouraged, rebellious, stubborn, wayward. Yes, true sons/daughters will be chastened by God and brought back in line. But in some of the above scriptures I have quoted, people believed, e.g. Simon the sorcerer, (perhaps were even saved, as scripture says that “Whoever believes in the name of the Lord shall be saved”), yet they were deceived, caught in wickedness again, and were back on the path of destruction. Yet scripture advises believers to “turn him back” and “correct those in opposition”. Why waste time trying to bring such people back to truth/light? Did they lose salvation and can perhaps be saved again through the efforts of other believers/leaders? Or were they never saved before, but we must keep on trying?
2. Heb 6:6 – Renew them again to repentance means that repentance was previously done (and correct repentance at that), so previously saved through the first repentance. Renew them again to repentance means the same repentance as the first repentance, i.e. repentance leading to salvation.
3. Heb 10:29 – The one referred to here had counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing. He who was actually sanctified by the Blood of Jesus, i.e. set apart unto God, made holy unto God, washed with the Blood, was to now suffer worse punishment than one who according to Mosaic law dies without mercy. How can this be?

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 6, 2011 at 1:02am

Hi, LT and others who can maybe shed some light on the above, help please? Thanks for all the other responses, but I would still like your thoughts/explanations on the points above...

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