Once saved always saved?

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on February 8, 2011 at 1:31am

Sister LB,

 

>>Luke 11:18 that only a real Christian with the Spirit of God can cast out devils. This verse says nothing about only Christians being able to cast out demons. You are adding that to the text.

 

Act 19Is not teaching that under no circumstance will an unbeliever ever cast out a demon. When the demons seek to deceived and make people think that the charlatan before them is a servant of God, I am sure they can put up a show.

 

LB my sister you have to keep things in context dear. I will break it down soon, God willing.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 7, 2011 at 12:39am

After reading everything thus far and weighing it on the balances, it is still my view that with God's foreknowing, predestinating, calling, choosing and appointing, that ALL who call upon the name of Jesus, who believe, who confess and repent are saved initially (which is God's free gift and will not be witheld from anyone), but God proceeds to also test the hearts and minds of those people anyway. Those who He knows are truly His will remain His and be given all necessary divine help to stay true and attain eternal life and heaven. All the others who fall away, God initially did not withhold salvation from them, and still made His divine help available (otherwise He is a liar concerning how to be saved), but after having attained salvation (perhaps even continuing unto various level/degrees of spirituality/maturity), they then fall away due to various reasons. God gave them everything, saved them, but they fell away. Some return and are saved and washed again, but others have reached a point of no return, of God Himself not even accepting them any longer. This is clear to me from all the scriptures and arguments thus far presented for both sides.

 

We are not robots in God's hands programmed to automatically be saved/predestined. God will in any case test ALL and those found lacking are not His foreknown ones / predestined ones. God gives freely to all, tests all, deals with all acording to their choices and actions after their initial salvation, and can and will cut off those not proving themselves unto Him to be/remain true sons and daughters of God. I have had enough experience to see God's hand in the lives of people, changing them, transforming them, providing for them, until they go astray by their own accord, or the devil taking them, or something in their lives that they needed deliverance from but were unwilling to deal with those things and those things taking them away from God, to know that such people have given up their salvation and God's hand has been removed from them. Are they lost forever? Only God knows their hearts and whether they can be saved or not again, and some of them are past the point of being saved again.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 7, 2011 at 2:43am

David A.,

 

It does not surprise me that you have come to the same conclusion that you had when you posted this forum. This topic has been around many years with people who love Jesus on both sides and it surely will not go away here in this forum. For as you feel convinced there are those of us who are equally convinced that the gift of salvation once received which includes being born-again, changed, sealed, marked and indwelt that these things cannot be undone by works, for salvation is not of works, but grace. There is a right way to live and a right reason to live that way, but retention of salvation is not that reason, though you and many others will disagree.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 7, 2011 at 6:33am

Hi LT. The info I have received thus far has been most enlightening, and has caused me to dig deeper regarding the question of OSAS. I may be somewhat misunderstood by some though, as my viewpoints against OSAS are not to defend the belief that salvation must be retained. No, in fact I now firmly believe in OSAS, which applies only for those who are really God's foreknown, predestinated, called, chosen and appointed, for those who will make it to the end. Yes indeed, for them it is really a case of once saved always saved!

 

 For those who have fallen away though, I still believe that God does not withhold His salvation from them initially. But they still lose it anyway. I feel it is like giving them a fair chance even though they will fail anyway. It's not God's fault. It WOULD have been His fault if He had NOT allowed them to be saved initially by the principles of being saved. But having been saved and still giving it up anyway / losing it, for whatever reason, for them it is NOT a case of once saved always saved.

 

 This is not a contradiction to me at all. I know that I am part of the group of OSAS, not having to retain my salvation, but to just allow God to complete His work in me. At the same time I realize that this is not an automatic process, neither am I an automatic product of God's saving grace to me. I have my part to do. I have my work cut out for me. I have areas in my life that need deliverance and am willing to do my part, as God enables me and empowers me. I am willing to work out my salvation with fear and trembling (which by the way is a scripture that no-one has really expounded on or explained exactly what this verse means and its place in the Bible). The work I refer to here is not to obtain or to retain salvation, neither good works that God calls us into after salvation, but the nitty gritty, intensive, life-changing, life-empowering, delivering part of the work which is our part to do. Yes, we are new creatures in Christ, but each of us still has to put in the effort for deliverance and change, otherwise everything would be new/perfect in our lives from day 1 of being saved, which is clearly not the case. The work I refer to can be summed up in the following verses:

 

2Pe 1:5

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6

And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7

And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe 1:11

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 7, 2011 at 1:49pm

Hi Amanda. Firstly, David or Dave is fine. Brother Abel has a strange ring to it. First time I’ve actually seen it that way! :-)

 

I hope that the following comes across clearly. This is how I currently understand it:

 

For those to whom OSAS really and truly applies, it is ONLY for those who are foreknown by God. Looking at Rom 8:28-30 you can see that it is only for the foreknown by God that it is already a done deal, hence the foreknown are predestined, called, justified, glorified. Past tense. God already knows the end of His foreknown ones.

John 15:16 says the following, Jesus speaking, Joh 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.” Jesus was speaking to his disciples here, but the same applies today. No-one chooses Jesus, but He chooses us and appoints us. We are the ones who will finish the race, who will bear good fruit, and to whom all the scriptures proving OSAS true apply to.

 

On the other hand, all the scriptures pointing against the OSAS view clearly indicate Gospel-believing/Jesus-believing, sanctified, consecrated, originally repentant people who made mistakes and fell away. Some can be “turned back” and are still worth the effort to minister to. Others are beyond coming back to God again. God also knows the end of these people from the beginning. Hence these ones are not God’s foreknown ones, hence not predestined, not called, not justified, not glorified. But the question to ask here is, even though God still knew their end, did God not initially do anything when they at the first believed, repented, plead His blood over their lives, were considered sanctified and consecrated and in covenant with Him through the Blood of Jesus? Does one not have to be saved by God to fit these kinds of descriptions of them (not to mention all the other descriptions I have left out that are mentioned in the relevant scriptures)? Was God not true to them? Did God not give them a fair chance at success?

 

The best example I can think of to illustrate the above is the following:

 

King David vs King Saul.

 

King David – David was from the tribe of Judah, he was never forsaken or rejected by God, and Jesus was given / raised upon the throne of David:

Luk 1:32 “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.”

Act 2:29  "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Act 2:30  Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,”

 

King David would represent those foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified. Done deal, no questions asked, because God knew his end already, hence Bible prophecies always stated that Jesus would come from the line of Judah.

 

YET GOD NEVER RAISED UP DAVID AS FIRST KING OF ISRAEL, BUT RATHER SAUL. WAS SAUL GIVEN KINGSHIP IN TRUTH AND A FAIR CHANCE AT SUCCESS?

 

King Saul – Tribe of Benjamin, not Judah. But yet chosen by God as first king of Israel, God’s anointed (in King David’s words), the Spirit of God was upon him, he prophesied, then was rejected by God Himself. Yet God was prepared to establish Saul’s kingdom forever over Israel, if he didn’t make the mistakes that he did.

 

1Sa 13:13  And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever.

1Sa 13:14  But now your kingdom shall not continue. The LORD has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you."

 

Now the questions I ask here is, “Was Saul really king or not? Did God not give Saul a fair chance to prove himself? Was God lying that He would have established Saul’s kingdom over Israel forever?”

 

God already knew Saul’s end, but made him king anyway, was prepared to establish his kingdom over Israel forever and by implication let Jesus be raised up on the throne of Saul. Was God fake and untrue to Saul in God’s dealings and plans for him? No, but Saul made grave mistakes, failed and lost everything that was initially and in truth given to him. What was initially given to him was the real deal.

 

Similarly, those who are truly God’s, like King David, salvation and blessings are already signed and sealed. But for those who had the real deal initially and dealt carelessly with it, like King Saul, lose it in the end.

 

This is my view, it makes sense to me, and I hope that I was at least somewhat clear. The example I used might not be the best one, but it does illustrate the point that the people whom God knows are going to fail, can be given the real deal (including salvation according to the New Testament scriptures used in these discussions) but let it slip out of their hands by their own doing / own mistakes.

 

God Bless,

David

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 7, 2011 at 3:26pm

Hi Amanda. Okay, I get the whole Brother Abel thing now... Dave is also fine, and also as I noticed LT says, David A...

 

I think the issue is with the term OSAS - Once saved always saved.

 

God Bless,

David A.

 

What is the definition of saved in the first place? People have differing interpretations of it. I see the people referred to in various scriptures I quoted in my original post as being initially saved by the Holy Spirit inspired terms used to describe them, others do not see them as ever saved in the first place.

 

Also, the OSAS view followers quote scriptures that prove God's election, marking, sealing, confirming, etc. of those who are His, and how He will keep them, provide the faith they need, add perseverence, etc. And they are 100% right together with all the scriptural proofs given.

 

Then those who outright reject the OSAS view, quote excellent scriptures that it is possible for saved people to lose their salvation, and their quoted scriptures also prove their view 100% right, as up till now the OSAS view followers cannot explain some key anti-OSAS scriptures away adequately.

 

That is why depending on which way you lean, you can be 100% convicted of one or the other, or totally confused!

 

"So, basically you sre saying there are two batches of saved people: OSAS and saved who can lose salvation."

Yes! But:

I have decided that OSAS is not the key issue, but GOD'S FOREKNOWING of those who are His that is the main issue. Those foreknown by God are truly saved till the end. Those not foreknown by God, will not be saved at the end, despite their initial efforts. But my belief is that these people, God was true to them to save them at the first anyway, but in the end it doesn't matter for them, hence not foreknown by God. And I believe the foreknowing of God is dependent on the heart condition of each individual, for it still comes down to God searching and testing the hearts of men.

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 9, 2011 at 9:34am

Hi Amanda. There have been demands on my time, and I haven't been able to respond on time, not just to you, but to many others who have commented here. My thanks to all, because due to the comments for both sides I am forming my own thoughts more deeply concerning this issue.

 

I see validity to both sides of the argument, and have decided to attempt to align both beliefs, even if just for myself, for my own clarity. I would be a fool to ignore arguments from both sides.

 

I quote from another recent comment of yours in another discussion:

"I have always believed we can lose it. The more I try to wrap my mind around the idea of OSAS, instead of believing that I lost my salvation, I now believe I never had it and it can never be had for some people."

 

Salvation is God's free gift to all. To believe that you never had it initially and that it can never be had by some at all, is saying that God purposefully withheld it, even though Jesus already purchased it for you.

 

I am beginning to think that the OSAS view makes it difficult for people to believe that they were truly saved at their first attempts, therefore this view is putting the work aspect into attaining salvation. Salvation is the easy part. We should not be thinking, "Oh, did I repent correctly, did I confess correctly, did I ever really believe?" No, but salvation is free and easily attainable by anyone, not a difficult thing as the OSAS view makes it out to be. What one does with it thereafter is the important thing, not to serve God with fear of losing salvation, but to maintain a holy and blameless life because of Him, for Him and through Him, always checking ourselves if abiding in the truth and measuring ourselves according to His standard. Which He gives us the power to do of course!

 

God Bless,

David

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 9, 2011 at 12:30pm

David A.,

 

BTW, I use "David A." because there is a David V. who is very active on AAG.

 

Many of us who believe in eternal security do not like the term OSAS. It in of itself (OSAS) can be confusing because of the terms that have been attached to it by both sides of the coin.

 

I think you will find it difficult to align the two sides, even for yourself. For one teaches eternal security and the other that it is impossible to be secure eternally while alive in the flesh. They stand opposed to each other regarding retention of salvation.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

 

Permalink Reply by margaret on February 7, 2011 at 2:39pm

ephesians 1: 13      1 peter 1:4-5     once saved always saved. if some do fall away the Lord calls them back because at one point they did repent and believe they were sealed with the Spirit. He doesnt remove the Spirit cause of backsliding, why otherwise are we not to grieve the Spirit.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 7, 2011 at 2:45pm

David A.,

 

I am not following your view. You appear to be saying both. Some are called and saved eternally while others can experience salvation, but since they were not called they will be lost.

 

Regarding Saul and David, I simply would not see the kingship and salvation as apples for apples. They are two totally different things, are goverened by different rules, including being under different covenants.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 9, 2011 at 12:01pm

Hi LT. My view currently is that those who initially laid hold of salvation, handled it carelessly, over time lost it of their own doing/allowance and never made heaven are not called, because God knew they would fail. To be called, according to Rom 8:29-30, only those foreknown are predestined, called, justified, glorified. I am taking it in a sequential sense, being foreknown by God being the basis/starting point for the rest. So when I say only the foreknown of God will be eternally saved, I refer to those who will make heaven at the end. These are the foreknown and consequently the called at some point.

 

Foreknown = leads to predestined, leads to called, leads to justified, leads to glorified - eternally saved.

Not foreknown = never predestined, never called, never justified, never glorified - eternally damned. Could be those who never accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, or those who did accept Him as Lord and Savior and then rejected Him and their salvation (of their own accord/doing/allowance).

 

OFAF, if you will - once foreknown, always foreknown. Salvation, God's free gift to all, can be taken and discarded by individuals at will, hence OSAS in itself is not the best term to me, even though I agree with it only as applied to God's foreknown, those whose names are already written in the Book of Life.

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 9, 2011 at 12:51pm

Hi Amanda. It is not my aim to confuse. Things are clear to me, but I may not be explaining as well as I would like to. Maybe because it is in seed form in my spirit as well.

 

OFAF for me is just a clearer term that OSAS, especially with all the uncertainty regarding the word "saved". Foreknown to me makes it much clearer, as irrespective of whether you believe in OSAS or not, OFAF cannot be disputed (I would think).

 

Those who are foreknown by God have the blessed assurance of being eternally saved that ALL the scriptures supporting OSAS confirm. So no worries there for those in that category. You will know it if you are eternally saved, God's Spirit bearing witness with your spirit. There may be times of doubt and/or fear depending on what you're going through or where you are spiritually/maturity-wise, but there will be no game of wait and see. ALL things, even the doubts, insecurities and fears at times, will work for good anyway. These people will also bear permanent good fruit (John 15:16) which will also be apparent.

 

All others though, whether always unsaved by not hearing the gospel or outright denying Jesus Christ from the start, or those who may have been saved and lost it (according to anti-OSAS view proponents) or were never saved from the start anyway (according to OSAS view proponents), will never have that security in their spirit, or it will be fleeting. They will know if they are playing Christianity and deceiving people (but they cannot deceive God), or rebelling, or falling away to the point of no return, or allowing the devil to take them away from God (in this case they may be deceived though to still believe they are on the right path). However, they will bear no fruit or bad fruit which will also be apparent (maybe not to themselves, but definitely to others).

 

I hope this helps?

 

God Bless,

David

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