When I Am Down

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 27, 2010 at 9:13am

Amanda,

Salvation is not about works, but we were created for good works that we are to do once we are saved. These works have rewards attached to them. Salvation is a gift and cannot be earned (this is not debatable). These works we do, we do because we love Him. That is our primary motivation, yet Jesus has promised rewards to His faithful followers. What these rewards are exactly is somewhat debatable (and even unknowable). The text simply states that our works will be tested. Good works will be rewarded and bad works destroyed (not rewarded). the person is saved either way. Only the works are being judged.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 27, 2010 at 9:58am

Amanda,

Salvation by grace is integral to this whole discussion, thus I bring it up. In the foreknowldge of God there would be no need for Him to create good works for a person who wil never come to Christ and be saved. Thus, the unsaved who remains that way is not leaving good works unfinished as there were never any to complete, as good works can only follow salvation.

Regarding a person who is saved they lose rewards by leaving good works unfinshed. All bad works are simply burnt up. Can a person spend time in the pig-pen and still be saved? Whose merit are we standing on? Ours or His? God never says enough. His grace knows no limit. A child never stops being a child. A true child is always a child and is always welcomed home.

Go back to the understanding of needing only your feet washed.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 27, 2010 at 9:29am

Amanda,

Paul is nearing the end of his life and ministry at the time of this epistle. He has faithfully fulfilled his task and there is a crown of righteousness in store for him. This is obviously different than the righteousness we receive at salvation, which is the righteousness of Christ. Again, the concept of awarding is a payment and thus cannot be associated with salvation. If it were, we then turn salvation into a works based salvation and the Scripture completey refute that concept.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 27, 2010 at 9:43am

Amanda,

Revelation 2:10-11
To “him who overcomes” is a promise similar to saying “those who overcome.” How do we overcome? Is it by our work our on the basis of Jesus' work? 1 John 5:4-5. No verse stands alone.

Heb. 3:12-14
Standing alone or even as a short portion of Scripture this would be the hardest to address. The author is speaking to Hebrew believers carrying their historical baggage. The author is laying the ground work leading up to the greater understanding found in later chapters relating to the new covenant and as we find Jesus as our High Priest and eternal sacrifice. This verse has to be read in light of the main teaching (theme) of the Book of Hebrews with the intended reader, the Hebrew believers, in mind.

You will have people for the rest of your life tossing out "What about this verse and what about that verse." One must examine the whole of Scripture and put these "What ifs" in context. We can run the list of 12 regular and another dozen or so verses that people always toss out trying to refute eternal security. There are two parts to this equation. 1) The Word of God and 2) The Spirit of God. It is He who will in the end give you the peace you seek, yet man will continue to challenge that peace.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 27, 2010 at 10:18am

Amanda,

Try this. Stop looking for the line and simply look to Him seeking to draw closer to Him day by day. If you do this, the line so many fear will not even come into view.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

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Permalink Reply by Charles Burwell on November 27, 2010 at 11:53am

Dear Amanda

LT has given you some excellent advice " stop looking for the line and simply look to Him seeking to draw closer to Him day by day. If you do this, the line so many fear will not even come into view . "

I do not even participate in ' discussions' involving ' eternal security' or lack thereof.
I have my opinions which I keep to myself and give the same answer to those who approach me from both side of the 'argument' (?).

I use the words of the apostle Paul that he shared with his 'son' Timothy in his second letter. I'm sorry I don't have the exact scripture reference as I don't have my bible at hand. However I memorized it long ago when the Lord led me to it when I was in a tug of war between the 2 opinions concerningOSAS.

The scripture reads " nevertheless I am not ashamed , For I know in whom I have believed , and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day."

You see , my friend , I have committed my life and all in it to Him seeking only His face and guidance. I am persuade that He will keep me because I know Him. Not know OF Him , but know Him. All you need to worry about ( or should I rather say
'be concerned with' ) is seeking to please Him. In James He says " If any man lack wisdom let him ask of God who gives liberally and upbraideth not.'

If you have questions , just ask Him to help you. Leave other peoples opinions alone for awhile and simply seek His fellowship.

As far as this 'line' is concerned , no man ( or woman) knows when or where the grace of God 'ends'. That is reserved for Him alone. In the over 30 years that I have know Him I have put His grace and mercy to the test. Please don't think I'm bragging about my foolishness , I'm bragging about the grace of God.

There was a time when I told Him if a certain sitution worked out the way I hoped it would then I would go with it wholeheartedly even though I knew it was absolutely wrong and that He could just go His way. I didn't say those words but it was the ' thought and intent of my heart' so it was the same as saying it. Anyhow, God in His infinite mercy closed that door of oppotunuity about as tight as a door could get closed and kept me from my own foolishness.

There were , of course, consequences to be borne for such a foolish action but God was merciful as He saw , much more clearly than I , the true reason behind my foolishness and loved me too much to let me go there.

You see , my friend , God loves you too much to let you go too far without interveining . He , and He alone, will let you know if you're going 'too far' and will deal with you to keep you from going there. Just always remember , if there is a ' line' , It's HIS line and He will be the One to decide what is done. And if you simply 'seek Him' as LT recommended , I am fully persuade that you will not go to far.

God bless you , my sister as you seek Him alone and allow Him to lead you to your eternal home.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 27, 2010 at 9:05pm

Amanda,

You have asked some specific questions over the last month that I have tried to answer as honestly as possible while seeking the leading of the Holy Spirit. After stepping back and looking at your questions I think you are asking the wrong question. Rather than wondering if your salvation can be lost I would encourage you to ask the Lord to give you assurance regarding your salvation. I could say a bunch of nice things and try to encourage you at this point, but that is useless if what is shared is not true. I state this because I want you to know that it is impossible for us to know if anyone over the internet is truly saved. In fact we never know 100% for sure regarding another person, but God knows. We can be sure regarding our own salvation (1 John 5:13). You question your salvation in the manner that a person who has not yet come to salvation wrestles with the guilt. There are a number of reasons this can occur. Two jump out at me. 1) Maybe you are not saved and are under conviction that leads to salvation (I am not saying you are or are not saved, nor am I trying to be mean, but you need to be sure and in fact assurance is what you are seeking). 2) You have been influenced heavily by legalistic teaching. Legalism is damaging and very difficult to overcome. It takes time to undo the things we have been taught and learned and time for God to replace the errant teaching with truth and grace. Legalism can be a barrier to salvation and also a hindrance once one is saved.

I will not get into the comments your pastor made as he is not here to respond for himself.

The fact that both doctrines cannot be right is true. What we do know is that Jesus is right and that He is our Savior.

Read the Book of Galatians.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 27, 2010 at 9:08pm

Amanda,

Remember as you take this journey that you have HOPE and GOD is NOT DONE WITH YOU YET. You are a work in progress, as we all are.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 28, 2010 at 5:03am

Amanda,

I do not tire of your questions, but recognize that you ask a lot of questions really fast and that slowing down will give you more time to process the exchanges you have with people here on AAG.

I assure you that many who come to AAG have been exposed to legalistic teaching. It comes in various forms, so you are not alone in your struggle.

You have no need to be sorry. You are seeking help and understanding. Praise God you are willing to reach out and ask questions instead of keeping it all in and trying to live as if nothing were wrong.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 1, 2010 at 6:39am

Amanda,

So what does a person do who wants to repent and believe the gospel...believe it again? I mean, I believed it once. I am in rebellion and have been for close to two years, just going through the motions, but falling farther away from God. I don't know where I stand with God.
If you believed the gospel once, you still believe the gospel. This revelation of it being true was revealed to you by the Father, not of your own decision to believe as if faith is acquired by intellectual ascent, but rather faith is from God and He uses the intellect in the process..

MT 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.”

JN 6:44-48 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life.”

You recognize you believed (which means you still believe), but have wandered off into rebellion. You recognize God, His Word, His sacrifice and your own rebellion. That means God is at work in you or you would not care, but you do care.

How does one overcome rebellion? Leave the pig-pen and return home to the Father who is waiting for you. He wants to clean you up, put a robe on you, give you a ring and celebrate your return. Yes, God lets us wander. That is part of free-will (Our liberties in this life). God is waiting for you to turn from the rebellion and return to Him. There are no magical words, just a simple turn from and returning to Him. Take the steps back to restored fellowship one at a time, day-by day. Block out the lies that say He will not receive you, for you fear that when you return He will reject you … that is a lie of the enemy. Fellowship will be restored because relationship was never broken. You are His child.

The Scripture says: Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to” (Luke 13:23, 24).
This text teaches us two things. 1) Jesus takes the person’s eyes off of others and causes the man to first focus on himself. We cannot control the outcome of others. We can only set an example, love them and point them in the right direction. 2) Do not be deceived into following the wrong path. Find the right path and follow it. The right path is (JN 14:6) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,” and (EPH 2:8) “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”

I’ve been taught that it will take my personal effort to get in and that this is Jesus’ personal teaching--that we are saved instantly by repenting and trusting in Christ for salvation, but also must have a continuous effort to stay spiritually alive to enter Heaven.
So you have been taught that salvation depends upon works. That is in error. One cannot ever live up to the law in order to get saved, nor will we ever live up to it well enough to remain saved by the old code. We are saved because Jesus fulfilled the law and its requirements for us and He nailed the code to the cross as seen in the following verses, (COL 2:6-15) “So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.”

We all know that a spiritual battle is going on with the forces of darkness as they try to lead us astray. All my life, even in the holiness church of my youth I have been taught that I can fall from grace (Gal. 5:2-4); shipwreck my faith (1 Tim. 1:19,20); become immoral, impure and greedy (Eph. 5:5-7); etc. And backslide. Be cut off again from Christ. Then I have to be grafted back into the vine.
The books of Galatians and Ephesians are all about grace. The context of the book restrains any errant interpretation of single verses found within the book.

Regarding 1 Timothy 1:19-20:
One must include verses 16 and 17 to understand the meaning of 18-20. Then we can step further back and see the deeper meaning of the whole letter as well.

“Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” 1 Tim. 1:16-17

“Paul names two examples of those who have shipwrecked their faith: Hymenaeus and Alexander. The former is mentioned again as a heretical teacher in 2Ti 2:17; the latter is probably "Alexander the metalworker," who did Paul a great deal of harm (2Ti 4:14). The apostle had handed these two ringleaders "over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme" (cf. 1Co 5:5, where this phrase indicates excommunication from the church). The purpose was to jolt the offenders to repentance, induced by the fearful thought of being turned over to Satan's control. Its purpose, therefore, is remedial, not punitive.” NIVBC

I’m trying to re-examine all of that now. I don’t know if I have been trying to persevere on my own. I have always prayed everyday of my life that God would give me the grace get through the day, to help me in my job as I took care of people who were sick and dying and talked with their family members, to teach me the right thing to say and do to help others. I think that OSAS also sees that they must endure to the end through persecution (Mt. 10:22) which will come because of godly living (2 Tim. 3:12), hold firm to the end of your life (Heb. 3:14) and remain faithful to God until our physical death (Rev. 2:10,11). But they do it with a different attitude--one of complete trust in God, resting in the fact that He has saved them and will keep them and give them the grace to do all of this. The only difference is that believing in OSAS means you don’t have to live with the worry of being cut off from God no matter how bad you mess up, because you are clean and only need to repent.
You have been influenced by a legalistic view that requires you to continue to “earn” your salvation every day. This is your battle, to come out from under a burden that you cannot carry and were not meant to carry. Jesus carried that burden for you. There is a right way to live and a right reason for living that way. We are to desire to follow the commandments of Christ because we love Him, not because we fear being cut-off. I don’t live one moment worrying if I am saved, but rather seeking to please my Father in heaven because I love him. I have a vision of you trying to live your life as if on a mud covered hillside with a cliff just below you. You take two steps forward and slip back fearful of sliding off the edge. You strive for the top, but are making no head way. You tire, but fear stopping for fear of sliding off that edge. Instead of trying so hard on your own, try simply looking up, reaching out your hand and grasp the hand of Christ who is at the top ready to pull you up to safety.

On the other hand, there are those who will say to someone like me “you really weren’t saved to begin with, or you wouldn’t be in the place where you are now.” But that doesn’t make sense to me, because I have felt the power of God in me and have seen the changes in me in the past that only He can make.
There are two possibilities. Either you were never saved (and we have discussed this) or you are in rebellion. You admit you are in rebellion. To know you are in rebellion indicates that you know Him. If you did not know Him you would not feel convicted of living in rebellion. You simply would not care, but you do care..

I am so confused.
You are not alone in this. There many who have been influenced by legalism that causes them to live in bondage that Christ came to free them from. It is a battle and often takes some time to unlearn the things one has been taught in error and learn what the grace of God means.

But I have always known that love is more than an emotion. It is a gift from God. It is an emotion, an action, a noun. It is a command and a choice. God is love, light, and spirit. Love is everything, the way God is everything, complete, lacking nothing, everything in 1 Corinthians 13--which cannot be true in this life except only partially for those still in the flesh, but when He appears, we shall be as He is. We shall be love, too. And everything that He is.
Love is actually a state-of-being. When we are changed at salvation we are then capable of experiencing and expressing true love (agape). We must recognize that we start out as babes and begin a maturing process. As we mature our capacity to love expands.

I just can’t live the rest of my life not trusting that even at the times when I get so mad at God that I shake my fist at Him and wonder Why? How could you let that happen? Those moments of weakness and doubt. Am I the only one who ever feels them? Am I the only one who ever questions God? Not His existence. I believe. I know Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is the Living God. But I have so much guilt for doubting and I feel like God does not love me. I’m unacceptable to Him. I can’t measure up to what a Christian should be, because I can’t fully trust Him to do for me what you and others know without a doubt that He will do for you--keep you until the end.
RO 5:1-11 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 1, 2010 at 10:13am

Amanda,

Is one "really" saved if they can lose it? They cannot ever call themselves saved, but only safe at the moment. The doctrine of being Born-Again entails spiritual transformation. If one is only safe then there is no spiritual transformation, and if no spiritual transformation they are not born-again. If one can lose it then their hope is future and thus they cannot claim to be born-again, because we do not see a doctrine of being born-again and again and again.

The Bible talks about us being known by our fruit. Fruit is a by-product of being born-again (spiritual transformation), not simply one trying harder than before now that they are saved.

Regarding your last comment. You cannot change the past, nor make up for it. You can only affect today. As you live out this day it will affect tomorrow and so on. Ask for forgiveness and move forward. Living in the past is simply to live in bondage.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 1, 2010 at 10:46am

Amanda,

JN 15:9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

GAL 2:17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"



Lord Bless,
LT
TheNet Coordinator

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