WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 5, 2010 at 5:15am

Sojourner,
On Pg. 6 You said:

>>God called out to all that would come,and so all were called.However,not all those called accepted the invitation,at which God was angry at their rejection of His Son.
So then,none can choose salvation for themselves,but all are called of God.However,being called of God is not a surety of salvation as the calling can be rejected,even though 'compelled'(v23),to accept.

The outer call that individual members of the body and ministers send out can and is often rejected. The call of God to the human heart when is made in an effectual way is irresistible.

Romans 8:29-30 (New International Version)
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. The structure of the literature here comes in the form of what is known as elliptical literature, which means that there are words that are not contain in the ellipsis, but the literary structure demands they be supplied. Was Paul saying ALL who are Called or SOME who are called?

What Paul is saying is that those who are foreknown regardless of how they are being foreknowledge are also predestined, and all of those who are in the category of being predestine are also called, and all of those who are in the category of being called are also justified, and all of those who are in the category of being justified are also Glorified. Some who are justified do not fail to be glorified but everyone who is justified will have the consummation of their called in glorification. The Element at this point that needs our attention here is the element of Calling. What kind of calling is in view here? There are two types of callings that I can see in the bible. The out ward called of the Gospel, which we do when we preach, but that outward called is rejected most of the time, so what calling is in view here? Many are called but few are chosen Jesus says, so it is obvious that the outward called can and is resisted in many occasions. But if Paul is saying all who are called are justified then he could not be talking about the outward called, can he? So he must be talking about the other called I see in scripture. What is called the initial effectual called of God or it is also called at times the irresistible called of God, which is a term I dislike because even that calling can be resisted by man and God overcomes our resistance to his grace, I rather use the classical term, the effectual called. Is the called that brings about the Effect that God sovereignty desires and decrees. Going back to creation we see that God does not give an out ward calling to creation and then waits to see if creation listens (of course, natural creation does not have free will as we do), but rather He gives the command an imperative is spoken and effectually and irresistibly the light begins to shine. When Lazarus was resurrected he is brought back to life by the called of Jesus, he had no choice but to come back to his dead body which Jesus made a life in a command, which can not be denied. So in the golden chain which call is in view is the first question that rises. Since all who are called are justified and at the end Glorified it must referred to the inward called, which is linked at one side by justification and on the other side by predestination.
If it If Paul doesn’t mean all and we go back and say some who are called are justified and some who are justified are Glorified, we have huge problems. How can God called some and justify them and not finish what He started. Some who are called are justified and some will be glorified. It just doesn’t sound like the biblical God.

You talked about >>Luke 14:16-24

The servants were sent to call those who were invited, these words are intended to point out a double favor which the Jews had received from God; first, in being preferred to other nations; and, secondly, in having their adoption made known to them by the prophets. The allusion is to a practice customary among men, that those who intended to make a marriage drew up a list of the persons whom they intended to have as guests, and afterwards sent invitations to them by their servants. In like manner, God elected the Jews in preference to others, as if they had been his familiar friends, and afterwards called them by the prophets to partake of the promised redemption, which was, as it were, to feast at a marriage It is true that those who were first invited did not live till the coming of Christ; but we know that all received an offer of the same salvation, of which they were deprived by their ingratitude and malice; for from the commencement, God's invitation was impiously despised by that people.

We must now consider that part of doctrine which is conveyed both by Matthew and by Luke. One went to his field, and another to his merchandise; or, as Luke expresses it, one pleaded that he had married a wife; another that he had purchased a field; and another that he had bought five yoke of oxen. By these words Christ pronounces the Jews to have been so entirely devoted to the world and to earthly things, that no man found leisure to approach to God; for the cares of this world, when we become entangled by them, are so many impediments in our way to keep us back from the kingdom of God. It is truly base and shameful, that men who were created for a heavenly life, should be under the influence of such brutish stupidity, as to be entirely carried away after transitory things. But this disease is universally prevalent; so that hardly one person in a hundred can be found, who prefers the kingdom of God to fading riches, or to any other kind of advantages. Though all are not infected with the same disease, every man is led away by his desires; in consequence of which, all are wandering in various directions.

Besides, it deserves our attention, that ungodly men hold out fair pretences for rejecting the grace of God; as if their indolence might be excused, because they are entirely occupied with the affairs of the present life, and care little about a heavenly inheritance. But we see how Christ takes from us all such excuses, that no man may imagine it to be of any advantage for him to plead that he is detained by engagements of an earthly nature. On the contrary, men commit a double fault, when they allow themselves to be retarded by those things which are in themselves lawful, and which ought rather to have aided their progress. For why does God allow us the conveniences of the present life, but in order to draw us to himself? And yet so far is it from being true, that all have earnest desires towards heaven, in proportion as they are assisted by acts of the Divine kindness, that even holy marriage, and fields, and other riches, are so many snares to bind every man more closely to the earth.

Luke 14:23. Compel them to come in. This expression means, that the master of the house would give orders to make use, as it were, of violence for compelling the attendance of the poor, and to leave out none of the lowest dregs of the people. By these words Christ declares that he would rake together all the offscourings of the world, rather than he would ever admit such ungrateful persons to his table. The allusion appears to be to the manner in which the Gospel invites us; for the grace of God is not merely offered to us, but doctrine is accompanied by exhortations fitted to arouse our minds. This is a display of the astonishing goodness of God, who, after freely inviting us, and perceiving that we give ourselves up to sleep, addresses our slothfulness by earnest entreaties, and not only arouses us by exhortations, but even compels us by threatenings to draw near to him. God invites all indiscriminately by the Gospel, and thus many unholy and abominable persons creep in, who, though for a time they are admitted along with others, yet, when God reviews the guests, will be thrown out and dragged to punishment. The general truth conveyed is, that not all who have once entered the Church will become partakers of everlasting life, but only those who are found to wear the dress which befits the heavenly palace.

For many are called, but few are chosen. The object of the parable is pointed out by the conclusion, that few are chosen, though many are called; from which we infer, that we ought not to attempt an ingenious explanation of every minute clause. But lately, Christ did not threaten that the greater part would be thrown out, but mentioned one man only; and now we learn from him, that out of a large number few will be retained. And certainly, though in the present day a more numerous body of men is collected into the Church by the Gospel than was formerly collected by the Law, it is but a small portion of them whose faith is evinced by newness of life. Let us not flatter ourselves with the empty title of faith, but let every man seriously examine himself, that at the final review he may be pronounced to be one of the lawful guests; for, as Paul reminds us, that the vessels in the Lord's house are not all of the same kind, so
let every one that calleth on the name of the Lord depart from iniquity, (2 Timothy 2:19,20.)
I enter no farther, at present, into the question about the eternal election of God; for the words of Christ mean nothing more than this, that the external profession of faith is not a sufficient proof that God will acknowledge as his people all who appear to have accepted of his invitation. Calvin's Commentary

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 5, 2010 at 5:42am

Whether or not one believes in every aspect of the teachings of the writings, none can deny the brilliance of helping us to define the Gospels. All groups have benefited to one degree or another from these writings.

Permalink Reply by sojourner on November 6, 2010 at 9:31am

Hi David.

Romans 8:28-30 " And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,to them who are called according to his purpose.(29)For whom he did foreknow,he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.(30)Moreover whom he did predestinate,them he also called:and whom he called,them he also justified:and whom he justified,them he also glorified."

There is much debate over the meaning of God's foreknowledge.The word "foreknow"is the Greek word "proginsko" ("pro"=before,and "ginosko"means,"to know").The definition of the word is simple,"to know beforehand."God is omniscient and knows all things past,present and future.God is not subject to time and sees all things present.The problem is that the Calvinist defines foreknowledge as being determinative.In other words,they conclude that if God knows something,it means He causes it to happen.

In Romans 8:29,the Lord uses two words to convey His truth.He said,"For whom he did foreknow,he also did predestinate."The wording of the verse communicates two supportive actions.One,God knew through His omniscience who would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.Second,Those He foreknew would believe,He predestinated "to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ."If foreknowledge was causative He would not have stated that He predestinated what they would become.

Because God knows the future,it doesnt mean He makes it happen.In His foreknowledge He also knows what would happen under different circumstances.For example,in 1 Samuel 23:12,David asked the Lord if the men of Keilah would hand him over to Saul.God replied that they would.However,it never happened.David and his men left and went into the mountains of Ziph.God's foreknowledge is simply that;He is omniscient without the limitation of time.God's foreknowledge does not make the event happen.

Proper hermeneutical principals would dictate that a passage be interpreted literally,observing the definition of the words and their grammatical construction within the sentences.In other words,we must take the statement literally at it's face value.Barnes comment on the word "foreknowledge" says:
"The literal meaning of the word cannot be a matter of dispute.It denotes,properly,to know beforehand;to be aquainted with future events."

The question is,what does the word "election" refer to,and what did God predestinate?God is omniscient and foreknew those who would be saved.Thus,He predestinated them"to be conformed to the image of his Son."The verse does not say He predestinated those He foreknew,to be saved.Rather,He states that those who are saved are to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The word'conformed'means "to be made unto like fashion."God's plan is that believers are elected to be made in like fashion to Christ,meaning to be like Christ and live Godly lives.
1 John 3:2 "states that believers will be like Christ,("we shall be like him;for we shall see him as he is").Election then explains God's plan for those who believe and are saved.

Paul,in Romans 8,states several blessings that God's predestined plan gives the believer.Please note that these truths are in context with Romans 8:28.29.The believer becomes a spiritual being as Christ," But we are not in the flesh,but in the Spirit,if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.Now if any man have not the Spirit,he is none of his (Rom'8:9)." Also Paul explains that believers are made joint heirs with Jesus Christ. " And if children,then heir;heirs of God,and joint heirs with Christ;if so be that we suffer with him,that we may be also glorified together (Rom'8:17).Romans 8:29 explains that this is God's plan for what believers become in Christ.

Ephesians 2:10 states " For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works,which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Election,or fore-ordination established the results of salvation for those who will believe in Jesus Christ.It ordained that those who believe would be made alive (given eternal life) and declared in God's favour forever.The Calvinist,in his blind-sided view of Scripture,concludes that this verse means election is to salvation by God.Election rightly refers to the plan of what salvation accomplishes for the believer,not to whom God offers His grace,or to whom He witholds it.

The context of verse 29-30 is clear.God is talking about a Christian living within the purposes of God.He is referring to His plan for believers.He is certainly not telling us that He chooses only to save certain individuals,and condemn the rest to Hell.The passage doesnt even infer the idea.In other words God is saying He is in control of all that salvation accomplishes in the life of the believer.This is God's plan;whatever happens to the believer will work out for the good.Further,the verse says this is applicable to those who are " called according to His purpose."What purpose?The part of His purpose that all things work for good in a believers life.The verse is not addressing who will be allowed to receive salvation,but the result of the circumstances of life the believer faces.God says believers are called by him to live according to His plan.This refers to what God purposed salvation to accomplish;not who would be saved.

Verse 29,30 continues tthe discussion and states that God predestined,or planned,for believers to be conformed to the image of Christ.That means to strive to live like Christ.Christ is the standard that believers are to live their lives.Again,the verse is not talking about salvation,but rather God's plan for the believers after salvation.
In verse 30,God says those whom He foreknew,He called,justified and glorified.Here is the work of God in salvation.Those God foreknew would believe,He called,justified and glorified.God plainly states the calling,justification and glorification was for those He foreknew would believe and be saved.In the next verse God gives absolute assurance to the believer that God is working in his life,not only in salvation but in eternal security.The believer is assured that God will carry out His plan.

In 1 John 5:13,the Lord basis assurance of salvation on belief in the name of the Son of God.The verse says," These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;that ye may know that ye have eternal life,and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
The basis of assurance of salvation given in the New Testament is belief in Jesus Christ.Salvation is never presented as being based on election by God.A person knows he is saved because he truly believes in Jesus Christ,not because he was elected to salvation by God.There is not one word,stated or implied,in Romans 8:29,30 that says God predestined some to salvation and condemned the rest to Hell.
('Is Calvinism or Arminianism Biblical?' A Biblical Explaination of the Doctrine of Election,by Cooper P.Abrams,111).

Cooper P.Adams is neither Calvinist nor Arminianist.

This is a bit long bro,but I think a good view of Romans 8.

God bless,bro'

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 6, 2010 at 9:44pm

Beloved Sojourner,

I thank you and truly enjoy reading your responses. I will get to your post and give you my biblical understanding shortly. For now enjoy the article. Sorry some of my posts are long, but there is no way around that when dealing with these topics.

Blessings my friend.

>>Because God knows the future,it doesnt mean He makes it happen.In His foreknowledge He also knows what would happen under different circumstances. .One,God knew through His omniscience who would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.Second,


From: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_04.htm

THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
4. THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD

What controversies have been engendered by this subject in the past! But what truth of Holy Scripture is there which has not been made the occasion of theological and ecclesiastical battles? The deity of Christ, His virgin birth, His atoning death, His second advent; the believer’s justification, sanctification, security; the church, its organization, officers, discipline; baptism, the Lord’s supper, and a score of other precious truths might be mentioned. Yet, the controversies which have been waged over them did not close the mouths of God’s faithful servants; why, then, should we avoid the vexed question of God’s Foreknowledge, because, forsooth, there are some who will charge us with fomenting strife? Let others contend if they will, our duty is to bear witness according to the light vouchsafed us.

There are two things concerning the Foreknowledge of God about which many are in ignorance: the meaning of the term, its Scriptural scope. Because this ignorance is so widespread, it is an easy matter for preachers and teachers to palm off perversions of this subject, even upon the people of God. There is only one safeguard against error, and that is to be established in the faith; and for that, there has to be prayerful and diligent study, and a receiving with meekness the engrafted Word of God. Only then are we fortified against the attacks of those who assail us. There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. Just as higher critics are repudiating the Divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.

When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this "foreknowledge" is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men. It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature. It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by "foreknowledge?" "To know beforehand," is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump at conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple, rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance. Let us amplify this point.

Take the word "flesh." Its meaning appears to be so obvious that many would regard it as a waste of time to look up its various connections in Scripture. It is hastily assumed that the word is synonymous with the physical body, and so no inquiry is made. But, in fact, "flesh" in Scripture frequently includes far more than what is corporeal; all that is embraced by the term can only be ascertained by a diligent comparison of every occurrence of it and by a study of each separate context. Take the word "world." The average reader of the Bible imagines this word is the equivalent for the human race, and consequently, many passages where the term is found are wrongly interpreted. Take the word immortality. Surely it requires no study! Obviously it has reference to the indestructibility of the soul. Ah, my reader, it is foolish and wrong to assume anything where the Word of God is concerned. If the reader will take the trouble to carefully examine each passage where "mortal" and "immortal" are found, it will be seen these words are never applied to the soul, but always to the body.

Now what has just been said on "flesh," the "world," immortality, applies with equal force to the terms know and "foreknow." Instead of imagining that these words signify no more than a simple cognition, the different passages in which they occur require to be carefully weighed. The word "foreknowledge" is not found in the Old Testament. But know occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favour, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. "I know thee by name" (Ex. 33:17). "Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you" (Deut. 9:24). "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jer. 1:5). "They have made princes and I knew it not" (Hos. 8:4). "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). In these passages knew signifies either loved or appointed.

In like manner, the word "know" is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. "Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you" (Matt. 7:23). "I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine" (John 10:14). "If any man love God, the same is known of Him" (1 Cor. 8:3). "The Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. 2:19).

Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.

The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.

"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the "strangers scattered" i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, viz., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s "foreknowledge." The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).

Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God’s "foreknowledge" is not causative, that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree. Christ was "delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God." (Acts 2:23). His "counsel" or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Romans 8:29. That verse opens with the word "for," which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, "all things work together for good to them. . . .who are the called according to His purpose." Thus God’s foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Ps. 2:7).

God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be. It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He "foreknows" because He has elected. This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God’s own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight." The plain truth of Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: "Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son," etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were "conformed," but, on the contrary, those whom He "foreknew" (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph. 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies: Ephesians 2:9.

Surely God’s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people "who have believed through grace" (Acts 18:27). If then, they have believed "through grace," there is absolutely nothing meritorious about "believing," and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No; God’s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of "a remnant according to the election of grace." There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favour something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.

It thus appears that it is highly important for us to have clear and scriptural views of the "foreknowledge" of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonoring to Him. The popular idea of Divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God’s purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose: chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all the glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have "believed through grace" (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was "of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 5, 2010 at 5:53am

Carla –

In page 6 you said: >>Since we are made in God's image...we have the ability to choose.. It has nothing to do with power, but choice

Yes most definitely, we have the ability to choose and we choose evil until God changes our heart.

>>God didn't wait one iota of a second to save me once I realized my need for Him. The saving came in the instant that I repented.

The saving came in the minute you were able to see your need, Then you freely believed and Repented. Your heart of stone was made of flesh by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

>>HE desires for all to be saved

If God desires all men be saved why does he not save every person? Are their two conflicting wills in God? So, lets begin by answering the question, "Does God desire that all men be saved?" The short answer is “yes", as this is precisely what the text of Scripture says. In Ezekiel 18:23 God rhetorically asks: "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?"

On close inspection it should be apparent that passages which declare "God's desire for all to be saved" is the same kind of desire in God as His desire that I would be more kind and gentle toward my wife or that all men would obey His commands. Notice in the Ezekiel passage above it speaks of God's desire that people turn from their evil way. It is what God desires them to do and says nothing about what He will accomplish. This aspect of His will is not often fulfilled because this is His revealed will, not his secret will of decree. And we must remember that even believing that Jesus is the Son of God, is itself, a command:

"This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ...”1 John 3:23
"God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent..." Acts 17:30
It is clear, then, that God desires all men to obey His commands whether they are reprobate or not, and this includes the command to believe. (God holds them responsible for not obeying) To say it another way, God desires that all men come to faith. To conclude otherwise would be equivalent to saying that it is God's will for man to sin (since unbelief is a sin), which would be preposterous, of course. In one sense, It would be against His character to will anyone to do anything but obey His commands. Yet in another sense, it is within His will because He allows it within the framework of His providence. If God commands all men everywhere to repent and His commandment is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then there is no other possible conclusion than to say God desires all men, elect and reprobate, to obey His commands, including the command to believe the gospel. In this way, God desires all men to be saved in the same way He desires all men to obey His commands. As I mentioned, this desire (or will) is not His "will of decree" but His "revealed will" (commanded will). The “will of decree” (or secret will) always infallibly comes to pass but His “revealed will” or His commands, although according to His desire, do not infallibly come to pass, as is obvious from the fact that we are all sinners. It is true, God came to save "His people" from their sins, and them only, but the text in 1 Tim 2: 3, 4 & 2 Peter 3:8-9 does not seem to be speaking of this concept (i.e. those the Father has given the Son). It, rather, appears to be referring to God's "revealed will" or what He commands in Scripture to all men (like Thou shalt not kill, etc.). And, from this, it is obvious that God's revealed will does not always come to fruition. In fact, each time we sin we set ourselves against what God revealed will.

So we find that God allows things to happen that He would prefer not to happen. This is referred to by theologians as His permissive (revealed) will. The Scriptures distinguish between God's secret will, embodied in his counsel of foreordination, and God's revealed will, embodied in his law. The two are often denominated God's decretive will and his preceptive will. It is by His decretive will that "He sovereignly brings to pass whatever He decrees, while His permissive will leaves room for the moral actions of His creatures." (R.C Sproul in The Invisible Hand). So we can argue that God's revealed will is an infallible guide for the life of his Church. But his secret will is not meant to be a guide at all. God's Providential hand is simply seen by us as the gradual unfolding of God's secret will. It should be clear to us then that it cannot serve as a guide for our moral behavior nor as a way to postulate who wil be saved. It might be better for the sake of understanding to differentiate these wills as God's commands and his decrees. Man is held accountable for his disobedience to God's commands (revealed will), not God's decrees. His revealed will in his law is for us and is not meant to give us a glimpse into what He plans to do with His secret will.

Deuteronomy 29:29 makes it is clear there are at least two types of wills in God. It says,
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever"

The great theologian Jonathan Edwards explained,
"Though He hates sin in itself, yet He may will to permit it, for the greater promotion of holiness in this universality, including all things, and at all times. So, though He has no inclination to a creature's misery [He desires none perish], considered absolutely, yet He may will it, for the greater promotion of happiness in this universality." ("Concerning the Divine Decrees," The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. 2 (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth Trust, 1974), pp. 527-28.)

Arminians consider 1 Tim 2: 3, 4 to be one of their pillar texts but they stumble here because what we "ought" to do does not necessarily imply what we "can" do (believe). The Ten Commandments, likewise, speak of what we ought to do but they do not imply that we have the moral ability to obey them. God wills that we obey His commands, but nature ("flesh and blood") never taught us the absolute necessity of fleeing to a righteousness better than our own. Only God can reveal this to us. It is obvious, then, that 1 Tim 2: 3, 4 does not refer to His will of decree, but another type of will (revealed) since it does not infallibly come to pass. The commandments of God were never meant to empower us, but rather, to strip us of trusting in our own ability so that we would come to an end of ourselves. With striking clarity, Paul teaches that this is the intent of Divine legislation (Rom 3:20, 5:20, Gal 3:19,24).

We can also catch a glimpse of the secret and revealed wills at work in the following passage on the crucifixion of Jesus:

"...this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." Acts 2:23

God, in this text, predetermines that Jesus will be crucified by the hands of godless men. Now it is clear that God does not desire or will evil, yet he here actually preordains it through godless men because his intent is for our good.. God both desires (in one way) and does not desire (in another way) this redemptive historical event to happen. According to this text, God eternally decreed the crucifixion redemptive historical event, yet when it was carried out in time by sinful men, it was clearly contrary to the moral law, that is, God's commands. Using similar biblical logic, we can see that God, desires the salvation of all men. But it is equally clear that, preferring their sin, none desire to come to Him, thus rebelling against His moral law, flying in the face of His revealed will. He desires them to come but they run the other way. So His secret will mercifully goes into action (John 6:39) and, in love, He saves the persons whom He agreed upon in His eternal counsels.
Jesus, when He came into Jerusalem, saw the Israelites reject Him. He said:
" Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.” Matt 23:37

Jesus truly mourns over people who are unwilling to come to Him; even the reprobate. He yearns for them to come and holds out His hands to them but they are obstinate and will not come simply because they don’t want to come. He desires that these persons be saved in the sense that He wants them to believe in Him. But they love their sin more than they love their God. This is the natural condition of all men apart from God’s grace. So he desires all men to believe, but he saves only those who He sovereignly sets His affection upon, according to the good pleasure of His will. His reasons for choosing some and not others have not been revealed to us. This is part of His secret counsel or decretive will. But rest assured that God will act according to His perfections and conspire with His wisdom to do what is right. There is, in fact, no better reason in the universe than God wills something to take place. To think otherwise is to presume on God.

So the gospel is declared to all men ... it is news for all to hear, but, due to our natural rebellion and hatred of God, all men reject God. Therefore since men are never found naturally willing to submit in faith to the humbling terms of the gospel of Christ, men will not come into the light (John 14:17; John 10:26; John 6:44; John 3:20; Rom 3:11). But Thanks be to God, who is yet merciful, coming to those He has chosen from eternity giving them eternal life. What they could not do for themselves, He mercifully does for them. Those who "have ears to hear" are the same as those whom God's favor rests. So even the desire for belief itself, like all spiritual blessings, was purchased by Christ on the cross.

(1) The Bible does teach that sinners resist the Holy Spirit every time they refuse to obey the gospel. We have never claimed that the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. In fact. we see this kind of resistance in the world among unbelievers every day. The Scripture teaches, rather, that the Holy Spirit CAN and DOES make His gracious influences irresistable when He sovereignly chooses to do so (Acts 16:14; John 6:37, 63-65).

(2) A friend of mine sent me the following illustration which often may be true of writers: R. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, would often cry over the death of her characters. Now here is a very good example of someone decreeing what she does not desire—though absolutely sovereign over her world, she decrees what she does not like for the sake of a higher purpose she herself has established. In a greater and more mysterious way, God has ordained everything that comes to pass, including the death and damnation of the reprobate (who, through their unbelief, have rendered themselves unworthy of eternal life (Acts 13.46), though (in another way) he desires just the opposite for them and takes no pleasure in their ultimate end. So, just as we have always insisted that there’s a sense in which Christ has died for everyone who has ever lived (in the words of Owen, the atonement is unlimited in its sufficiency), even though He only dies redemptively only for the elect; so also we insist that God really does desire and offer salvation to the reprobate, even though he has not elected them, nor will the Son’s death atone for their sins, nor will the Spirit quicken their hearts—God has decreed (in one sense) what he does not desire (in another sense)!
by John Hendryx

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 5, 2010 at 8:17am

Okay Davey,

This is a very long post to read through... You know I like to keep things short and simple. I will go through it though because you spent the time to type up the answer.

Yes most definitely, we have the ability to choose and we choose evil until God changes our heart.This is true..I guess the question is 'When does God change our hearts?' Before or after faith? What comes first..repenting or believing? (kinda like the chicken and the egg--incidently the chicken comes first---it has to, or there would be no one to sit on the egg for it to hatch).

So..what comes first--faith or repentence... In other words...do we repent and then have faith---or have faith and then repent? Scripture gives it in this order...REPENT and believe (Mark 1:15). I think this order (Repent first) is given on purpose! I also say they work together in ways that our finite brains cannot understand. This is one of those things hidden from us....and we have problems with views of calvinism and arminiasm---when they come up front, the human mind tries to make sense of a process that I believe we are not meant to understand. The way I see it, these are two views who are somehow trying to take a divine (infinite) priniciple and fit it into a finite way of thinking. The result is that scriptures are left out of the picture, and words are changed to fit into one's certain interpretation. I think we have to be very careful here. David, I don't think we can understand everything, and I don't think that one person has all of the answers. Calvin and Armenius were two believers who lived at one point in time, they each had their human perspectives and they died and went on to be with the Lord. Their writings and their interpretations are simply human--they have done their best. It cannot be that we succumb to the teachings of man rather than the teachings of God.. There is this divine tension in all of these teachings that exists.. It exists with the Trinity, it exists with free-will and predestination.... There is also a divine tension with Jesus Himself when He says things like... I and the Father are One--and then He says He doesn't know of certain things as to their timing--only the Father knows. Jesus tells us He is fully divine and fully human. The Holy Spirit allows us to believe it and teaches us as far as we can understand. We have to leave it at that. There has never been one person on the face of the earth who has all the answers. Do you see my point? To follow one man so much to the point that you have bought into this teaching, is to follow human ideas rather than what scripture teaches. We are not going to come to a conclusion here in this topic because God has kept this hidden from us. We have to be okay with that and not try to figure it out.

When does faith happen? We are told to REPENT and believe.. Then we are told to mature...then once we mature we are told to preach the Gospel... while we are maturing we shine our light, be the salt, and walk in the will of God according to the purpose He has ordained for each one. We get better at this each day. This happens when we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. We are told to be about the Father's business and 'occupy' until He comes.

David, I understand that you have the deep desire to learn and teach ....and that God has given you this desire. I believe that to be a great teacher one must be able at times to say... 'I don't know' and leave it at that. There is humility in not knowing and having to try and figure it out. We don't have to bring people to our own perspectives...because we have to realize that no one has all the answers, and that includes us also.

I think there is real power in saying a prayer something like this 'Lord, I don't understand how this whole business of faith works.' But I do know about You and Your character. I know that you desire for all men to be saved, and I know that some people are hardened once they reject Your precious Son. I know that Jesus was sent to suffer and die to cover our sins so that we can be reconciled with You, and Your word tells us that this is for the whole world because You love the whole world. Some people are saying that You choose some over others. I don't understand that, because what I see of you is Love.. I see a HOLY prefect God who is angry at sin...but that has been satisfied by what Jesus has done for all humanity. I know that You created each one for Your Glory and purposes, You are the potter, we are the clay, and i see that you have a tremendous deep compassion for all those who are lost, because they are not fulfilling the purpose You created them for. I feel that compassion also Lord, not to the depth Lord that You do---You know i could not handle that sadness....and because of that I can't agree with certain teachings that you choose some over others. I have asked You to help me understand, but what you have told me is that it is beyond me...but that You do love all people and want for them to be saved. I understand that I won't have all the answers, just help me to live a life pleasing to You so that I bring You Glory in all i say and do." I ask this in Jesus' name. Amen.

Faith happens when God turns our hearts from stone to flesh... It also happens when we realize our need for Him. Faith happens when we repent and believe. God wants for all to be saved. He has predestined each person for something. God also is patient that all men may turn to Him. These things together are all true. This is a divine tension that we will not fully understand this side of heaven. There is not one person who has all the answers. Praise be to God this keeps us humble. If you tell me you have all the answers now ...we will really have to have a talk.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 5, 2010 at 2:45pm

Beloved Carla,

Here is what I believe because of what I see in Scripture.

1. Before Christ - We can accomplished great and beautiful things. Many of them of great moral value, but none of Eternal Spiritual worth for the saving of our Soul. We are lost and blind without Him.

2. Foreknowledge is not a biblical teaching stating that God foresaw the future acts of the creature and used that knowledge to make his decisions. I find nothing in scripture to teach me that.

God makes His decisions independent of human will or desire. Strictly on the basis of His good pleasure, this I do find in multiple places.

3. Our will, which is very real and God given is enslaved to out passions.

It takes being born again of the Spirit to wake from our spiritual slumber. Once we see, we believe and repent. This happens simultaneously one can say. God may have been preparing the person for many years or not.

The other option is that God gives me enough conviction and grace for me to see and make a decision for Him. I find no scriptures to back up this believe. Not one. I understand that we through logical conclusions can arrive at a theological understanding without direct command or doctrine, but I just don't see it and many issues arise from such believe.

I do see that God is calling all man to repentance, yet none would come unless the Father calls them effectually and not just the outer call of preachers and the church in General.

I understand the real conflict having a Sovereign Lord and moral accountable humanity for us of limited understanding. I can't explain how both are not in contradiction at the same time and in the same space, but as John MACarthur and others have noted. That is what the bible teaches, that is what I believe, and can I explain it, nope.

Can I explain the origin of evil - nope.

3. The death of Christ paid and ransomed a people, the church, and His sheep. Such a great sacrifice was not done hoping some would believe. What about if no one believed? Then the death of Christ would save no one.

4. People have a real problem with the God I see in the bible. A loving God, yet in control of Who He saves. Calling all men to salvation, but none being able to answer the calling until He effectually calls. People see Him as unjust and mocking His creation at this point. I see no such God. I see a loving merciful God that saves as He chooses. He is God. I see Paul dealing with the issues of the injustice of God for doing this and laboring to nail the case forever in Romans from the first chapter on. God is just, perfect and holy in all He does. We don't like it. We should have a say so, God says who are you oh man to answer back to God.

"Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them; the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation."

Fist we are reborn and then we believe and repent. When we are born of the Spirit we believe and repent willingly by faith which was a gift from God to us who believe.

>>The result is that scriptures are left out of the picture, and words are changed to fit into one's certain interpretation.This is what I see beloved.

I do not agree beloved any and all scriptures you can place here can be not made to fit a man made system, but they can be harmonized with the word.

>>I don't think we can understand everything, and I don't think that one person has all of the answers.

I totally agree and theology continues to be better aligned with the word as time goes on. The teachings of Augustine as he saw them in the New Testament, where refined by Thomas Aquinas in some aspects and later by Luther, Calvin and Jonathan Edwards. Theologians like RC Sproul, John MACarthur and Pipper are today endeavoring to do the same, but the core of the New Testament teaching has not changed. The way we explain it has.

>>Their writings and their interpretations are simply human--they have done their best.

This is personal and I understand that it probably will not carry much weight but listen beloved. When I read Calvin, Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, Luther, Augustine (not showing off here all glory to the King - I have their books and Arminius as well and many others, not commentaries of their books, but their actual books) etc I get confirmation that I am reading inspired text. Not like the bible inspire, but inspired none the less. I do not agree with much of Calvin's, Luther's and Augustine's and Aquinas' doctrinal teaching apart from the doctrines of grace, but they were deep and blessed. When such man, of such beauty agree on something I am force to pay attention and consider what they have penned down, as I do I see a beautiful God, who is in control and I sleep (when I sleep, which is not much or often hahahahaha) peacefully.

>>There is also a divine tension with Jesus Himself when He says things like... I and the Father are One--

True but it can easily be explained in harmony with scripture. There is not much we can't explain without forcing the text due to biases etc. God's word is God's self revelation of himself, meant for the elect to understand. To us it is given to understand, to them it is spoken in parables so seeing they may not see, let's they believe. These verses are not spoken about much in one camp while the other embraces them and harmonizes them with the truth.

>>There has never been one person on the face of the earth who has all the answers.

I believe there have been many even when our answer is I don't know. I can't explain it, but this is what the word teaches. That is a valid answer.

>>To follow one man so much to the point that you have bought into this teaching, is to follow human ideas rather than what scripture teaches.

I follow no man beloved and if I did not know how much you love me and love God's people I would seriously be heartbroken that my family would believe that of me when I labor so much to teach the contrary. I agree with many brilliant theologians, the most brilliant ones on the history of the earth, including Paul, James, Peter and our Lord. I follow no man; I have not been force to believe these doctrines. I have been persuaded by the Holy Spirit. I place articles that explain my view much better than I could because there is nothing new under the sun, but my personal bible study has led me to my current believes.

>>We are not going to come to a conclusion here in this topic because God has kept this hidden from us.

I do not agree again my sister. To me that means let's stop digging this issues, I believe that some even when confronted with the truth will kick against it (not talking about anyone here - this is not a pun) and agree that we don't agree, but I believe God's will can be known deeply. That is why the bible is so thick, 66 books.

>>We don't have to bring people to our own perspectives

Wow is me if I don't answer my calling to bring light to the body. I have no other option, I have no other passion. All in love and completely understanding that I cannot change anyone, but I will labor till my last breath God willing to teach what I see in scripture and encourage all in the body to do likewise according to their calling. I call all men to Repent and believe and I know many will repent and believe and so I go out with confidence that God is calling His people through His servants.

I love your prayer, but my soul is fine with the God I see in the bible, holy, perfect, good, compassionate and sovereignty choosing. Well it is already predestined. I have no quarrels with that. The loose ends I once had were tied when I first study Reformed theology with a desire to understand why some believe this way and to be able to debunk as an apologist, but I was unable to and force to rethink my stance.

Between me and you beloved (don't tell anyone else ok) I firmly and truly believe that if there are humans out there that for some reason that I have not understood or perceived do choose God as God brings conviction into their hearts without the spirit regenerating them, then they will be saved, if they repent or believe. I just don't think a dead person can choose or believe until they are regenerated, but I am not all knowing ha-ha

Sis I understand where you are at, that is not a proud statement, just an honest one. I understand where you are at, I been there and remain there on some issues. I am still open on this one as well.

Blessings to you my sis

>>He has predestined each person for something.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9


In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 2 Timothy 2:20

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 6, 2010 at 10:45am

Hey David,

1. Before Christ - We can accomplished great and beautiful things. Many of them of great moral value, but none of Eternal Spiritual worth for the saving of our Soul. We are lost and blind without Him.

Yes .. Amen. I agree.

2. Foreknowledge is not a biblical teaching stating that God foresaw the future acts of the creature and used that knowledge to make his decisions. I find nothing in scripture to teach me that.
I agree....I don't hear anyone saying that.. It is not biblical to say that.

God makes His decisions independent of human will or desire. Strictly on the basis of His good pleasure, this I do find in multiple places. YEs I agree.. This does not mean though, that God predetermines certain indivuduals over others for Salvation.

3. Our will, which is very real and God given is enslaved to our passions.
Yes, This is true, until we repent and believe of the Gospel.

It takes being born again of the Spirit to wake from our spiritual slumber. Once we see, we believe and repent. This happens simultaneously one can say. God may have been preparing the person for many years or not.YEs this is true.. but you keep saying 'believe and repent'.. when scripture clearly says 'repent and believe'.

The other option is that God gives me enough conviction and grace for me to see and make a decision for Him. I find no scriptures to back up this believe. Not one. I understand that we through logical conclusions can arrive at a theological understanding without direct command or doctrine, but I just don't see it and many issues arise from such believe.

Is the Holy Spirit not capable to do HIS job-- BE careful here.. The Holy Spirit does the job of convicting people of their sin...unbelievers into believers---and believers to obedience.

Jhn 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [fn] Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.


Jhn 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;


Jhn 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;


Jhn 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;


Jhn 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.


Jhn 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.


Jhn 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.


Jhn 16:14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.


Jhn 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

I do see that God is calling all man to repentance, yet none would come unless the Father calls them effectually and not just the outer call of preachers and the church in General.The Holy Spirit does the convicting...as noted above...and then we repent...upon our repentence due to the Holy Spirit conviction...the result is that we believe and are saved. The preaching of the Gospel is what causes man to repent also. This is the method in which God has chosen to move on hearts.

Between me and you beloved (don't tell anyone else ok) I firmly and truly believe that if there are humans out there that for some reason that I have not understood or perceived do choose God as God brings conviction into their hearts without the spirit regenerating them, then they will be saved, if they repent or believe. I just don't think a dead person can choose or believe until they are regenerated, but I am not all knowing ha-ha I agree beloved.. a dead person can not choose to believe--until the Holy Spirit conviction comes on them... I believe they repent because they have been preached the gospel and the Holy Spirit has moved on them. I am very concerned over the teachings of 'a decision for Christ'.. i believe it is called 'easy believism'.. that teaching is dangerous.. That is not what I am talking about. i am referring to the gospel being preached without any fancy language or words.. Christ suffered and died, was buried and rose again to be seated at the Right hand of the Father.. Why? for our sakes.. He did this for us. He did this for you and for me...and for all the people who have come and gone before us, and for those who have not yet been born. Holy Spirit conviction will fall on them.... for those who push the message away or reject it, their hearts will be hardened... I believe there comes a point when God says '..... this is what you wanted, go your way then.'
God allows them to live in the life they have chosen.. Early in Romans there is the referrance to this.

I am glad to hear you say that you are still open.. I have been asking at my bible study on this topic, and they tell me we will be discussing this year.

Rom 9:22 God has every right to exercise his judgment and his power, but he also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of his judgment and are fit only for destruction.

I don't believe this means that God created people for destruction.. I believe this is saying that God is very patient with us for everyone to repent. Even though in our sin (all of us) we were headed for destruction, God stepped into this world to save everyone who will call on the name of Jesus. People who reject Jesus are at fault for their destruction..

Rom 9:23 He also has the right to pour out the riches of his glory upon those he prepared to be the objects of his mercy--

Rom 9:24 even upon us, whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

Rom 9:25 Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea, "Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those whom I did not love before." [fn]

Rom 9:26 And, "Once they were told, `You are not my people.' But now he will say, `You are children of the living God.' [fn] "

Rom 9:27 Concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, "Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand on the seashore, only a small number will be saved.

Rom 9:28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth quickly and with finality." [fn]

Rom 9:29 And Isaiah said in another place, "If the Lord Almighty had not spared a few of us, we would have been wiped out as completely as Sodom and Gomorrah." [fn]


Rom 9:30 Well then, what shall we say about these things? Just this: The Gentiles have been made right with God by faith, even though they were not seeking him.

Rom 9:31 But the Jews, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded.

Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law and being good instead of by depending on faith. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.

Rom 9:33 God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, "I am placing a stone in Jerusalem [fn] that causes people to stumble, and a rock that makes them fall. [fn] But anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed. [fn]"

Romans chapter 9 is referring to Israel ..past present and future..and how God will deal with that Nation.
(actually chapters 8-11:12) Paul is speaking directly to the Jewish people) Romans 11:13-36 we learn that Salvation is for all of us.

So what's this business about the 'full number of Gentiles?' Romans 11:25
It seems that there is a certain number that must be met? I believe this is based on God's foreknowledge...God knows all who will come to Him, and He also knows the time when it will happen. Does this mean that God prechose the people who will come to Him? I don't think so....because then there wouldn't be the command for us to REPENT and believe. I do believe that God knows who they are--that is how Paul can say there is a 'fullness of Gentiles to come in'...because God exists outside of time, simutaneously in the past, preseent and future, and HE is All-Knowing---It stands to reason that HE knows what this number of gentiles is.. That's why we need to preach the gospel...of every person who comes to faith..that that brings us one more closer to the fullness of the Gentiles. The internet is a wonderful way to reach people.. Perhaps the internet is one way that the gospel will be preached to the ends of the earth.

Blessings brother, Carla..

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 7, 2010 at 6:35am

Carla,

I am enjoying the exchanges my sister and friend. We can talk about all issues in love and respect. Amen! We can also have minor differences in the order or cause for our salvation and pull together as one body.

>>This does not mean though, that God predetermines certain individuals over others for Salvation.

Sis what is the problem, what is the injustice, the horror in God choosing who He saves? If it was not what the bible teaches then it would be an erroneous belief, but it does not change any primary doctrines nor is it without plenty of biblical support. He is not choosing one over another unjustly. No one knows the basis for His choice, I certainly do not, but He knows and that is enough for me. God certainly predestined a people unto Himself. If it was up to us we would all perish.

But how can God punish me when I am not able to choose spiritual life because I am dead in trespasses and sin, of no fault of mine, but due to Adam falling and consequently dying to the ability to choose God apart from God regenerating me, we ask? Well here is his answer: 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. The fact that God chooses through His calling does not involved God in an unjust transaction. God is perfect and good. It is His prerogative, as the creator, possessor of a perfect will and perfect knowledge, what He does with His creation. Paul continues and states. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (a deadly blow for those among us that believe that God cannot overcome our will, who can resist is! Scripture teaches) 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Spiritual dead people can still feel the weight of their sinful state by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, yet none choose God, so they are rightly judge by God.

>>YEs this is true.. but you keep saying 'believe and repent'.. when scripture clearly says 'repent and believe'

In your previous post you stated that you believe that the order of Repenting and believing serves a purpose. If you read my post again you will find that I also said Repent and believe a couple of times. When I type believe and Repent is not because I am making a theological statement. I simply neglect to follow the Repent & Believe pattern at times, it’s not intentional. Thanks for pointing it out. I am not sure that the order that the words are arranged in play any theological teaching. Notice the grammatical structure is a called to Repent and believe simultaneously. It is not saying Repent so you can believe. How can I believe without repentance or repent without belief? I don’t think is possible.

>>Is the Holy Spirit not capable to do HIS job-- BE careful here.. The Holy Spirit does the job of convicting people of their sin.

Girl you should know me better than that, I would not make such an obvious mistake as to say the Holy Spirit does not bring conviction. If conviction of the Holy Spirit is only an external work then is merely external to man and fails in the same manner that the medicine and the life preserver analogies fail to make a difference when they are offered to dead folks. What good is the conviction of the Holy Spirit in an unregenerate man? I believe the purpose of conviction is to usher us onto salvation, but is also to leave its recipient without an excuse in judgment day. What I was trying to get across is the fact that scripture does not teach that God gives us a degree of conviction and then is up to us to choose or reject. That is human deduction in the face of our called to Repent and believe. If the degree of conviction that was given to you was enough for you to decide for Christ and also a gift of God, then why didn’t God give the same degree of conviction to others in a degree that the recipient would not resist?

Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t? Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?

In order to keep the posts somewhat short I will respond to the rest of your post shortly.

Blessings beloved :)

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 19, 2010 at 10:15am

David,

Sorry it's been so long for me to respond.

I believe that this belief of calvinism cheapens the death of Christ to say that HE died for only some people. Jesus died for all humanity, I can't believe anything but that because that is what I see in scripture, and also in consistency with the Lord's character. Here is a quote from John Macarthur:
In the darkest corner of the world, God sees and reads the heart of every single individual. Don't believe for one minute that God doesn't know what is going on in the breast of every man. If a man is truly living up to the light that he has been given, God will give him more information. The angel was saying to Cornelius, "Like smoke ascending from a fire, your prayers and good deeds have risen to the nostrils of God. He considers them a sweet-smelling savor, and He is moving in response to you. " Cornelius had accepted God, and God had accepted Cornelius. But He couldn't save him apart from true information. God not only moved in response to Cornelius's seeking heart, but He also had to give him the right information. Cornelius's prayers, devotion, faith, and goodness had risen to heaven like a fragrant offering and entered the nostrils of God. In response God said, "Cornelius is living up to the light he has. I'm going to move on his behalf. " Whenever someone lives up to the light he has, God will respond to him.

and this:

Here is another principle: God gives the receiver the opportunity to actively respond. God could have had the angel say, "Cornelius, all you have to do is these steps. " The angel could have presented gospel, and Cornelius would have believed. But God didn't do that. Paul said that he was sent for the obedience of faith (Rom. 1:5) ; God wants to connect faith with an act of obedience because that's what the Christian life is all about. Romans 10:9 says, ". . . if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. " God wants an act of obedience to verify salvation. So He gives Cornelius the opportunity to be obedient.

If I were Cornelius, my reaction would have been: "Why can't I go myself? Why do I have to send my men? That will take too much time. " But Cornelius didn't respond that way. Praise the Lord, he was obedient! You say, "Why would God take so long?" I think there are two reasons: First, I think that God wanted Peter to go to Cornelius's house strictly on faith. Having three Gentiles arrive at his door saying, "We have come to take you to a man who wants to see you," was a little scary. Second, I think the Lord wanted Peter to lead Cornelius to Christ in Cornelius's house, something that no self-respecting Jew would ever enter. That would help break down the barriers between Jew and Gentile.

God's plan was laid out, and Cornelius didn't argue; He believed and obeyed. The angel said, ". . . now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter. He lodgeth with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the seaside . . . " (Ac. 10:5-6). Tanners had their homes by the seaside because they needed salt water for the tanning process. Verse 6 continues, " . . . he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. " Cornelius must have been on pins and needles waiting for everything to unfold!

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 21, 2010 at 9:53pm

Hey beloved Carla,

MaCarthur is a 5 point Calvinist that believes as Roy and I believe. We unlike what they called hyper-Calvinist leave open the door for all those that would come Repent and believe.

I remember writing in response to one of you post that if anybody seeks the Lord, the Lord will not turn His back on them. I believe that. Cornelius is a good example of someone God Chose because as John states he was doing all he could with the light he had been given. Now the question that rises is, did that light mean the Holy Spirit was already working in him like he was working in our lives way before we ever realized it? 0r does it mean that Cornelius sought God before God sought him?

I do not think that God efficaciously dying for His people hurts His character in anyway. I believe the value of the sacrifice of the perfect life for Jesus can cover the sins of every human that has ever lived. Yet I believe that His death did pay the penalty for His church and if anybody else comes to Him his sacrifice is enough for all that come.

I am placing an article at the end of this discussion about the atonement. Check it out sis. "You see sis behind the question of the extent of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement. What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died (John Piper)?" That is a very important question and one that the scriptures give us the answer to. I pray your heart is open to learn and not just set on debunking Calvinism. Is not an evil doctrine nor does it do harm to God's character though the first reaction of many is that it does, but it doesn't. It does present a different God than the Arminian God at times. A God of love but of justice as well. So many verses in the bible we skip through and do not stop to analyze because we only want a loving God. God is all His attributes all at once all the time. In other words love does not trump his justice, His perfection or His holiness. Not saying that you think it does, but some believe that way and have a problem accepting that Christ was nail to the cross because it pleased God to bruise Him. Of course in no way was He pleased to bruise Jesus in any malicious way, but because of what that meant for humanity. However those men that crucified Jesus are gonna be held responsible for their actions for they were not cohort into doing that, they freely chose to do that. Check out the article at the end of the discussion and tell me what you think. No worries about the time it takes you to respond.

I. SOVEREIGN CALL (vv. 1-20)
Verses 1-20 introduce the confrontation that resulted in the inclusion of the Gentiles in the church. God prepares two people: He first prepares a Gentile, and then prepares a Jew. The Gentile is Cornelius, and the Jew is Peter. He gives each one a special vision that serves as preparation. Before the two could ever come together, God had to change their attitudes. In verses 1-8 we will see the vision given to Cornelius, and in verses 9-20 we will see the vision given to Peter. So begins the inclusion of the Gentiles in the church. By the time of Acts 11, the gospel spread to Antioch and many Gentiles were being saved. In Acts 13 the ministry of the Apostle Paul would be aimed at the Gentiles. Jews and Gentiles were coming together in Christ. In Acts 11 Peter reported to the leaders in Jerusalem that the Gentiles received the same gift of the Spirit that they had received on the day of Pentecost (v. 17). Finally, in Acts 15 the Jerusalem council was held. The Jewish believers came to the conclusion that they would accept Gentile believers as those who belong to Jesus Christ. But it all began in Acts 10. And I'm glad it did because I'm a Gentile.

As we see what God does with Cornelius and with Peter, we will see principles that God uses when He deals with everyone in an evangelistic situation. We will see how God prepares the receiver of the gospel (Cornelius), and the messenger of the gospel (Peter). At the perfect time, God brings the two together. These principles are important for our own understanding of how God prepares His messengers (Christians) to communicate the gospel to prepared receivers at a divinely prepared moment. Let's first look at . . .

A. The Preparation of Cornelius (vv. 1-8)

1. GOD CHOOSES THE RECEIVER (v. 1)

"There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band"

The first thing we learn about God's preparation of the receiver is that God chooses him. God singled out Cornelius. There were many Gentiles who could have been saved and become the first Gentile to officially be introduced into the church, but God chose Cornelius. God is as involved in choosing the one to receive the gospel as He is in choosing the one to present it.

a. The Plan

1) John 6:37--"All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out. " In verse 44 Jesus said, "No man can come to Me, except the Father, who hath sent Me, draw him . . . . " God is in the business of choosing.

2) Ephesians 1:4--". . . He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world . . . . "

3) Acts 13:48--"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. " God had already determined who would be redeemed.

4) Acts 15:14--"Symeon [Peter] hath declared how God first did visit the nations, to take out of them a people for His name. "

5) John 10:16--Jesus said, "And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold; them also I must bring . . . . "

6) Romans 10:20--Paul is chastising Israel for their failure to believe when he says, "But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found by them that sought Me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after Me. " That verse is referring specifically to Gentiles. God sought them out before they ever asked for Him.

God initially chooses the receiver. That is His plan. He is building His body by calling out His sheep. But God's choice is never against the will of the one chosen. Added to the sovereign election of God is the choice of man. Both sides of salvation are expressed in Scripture. We may not understand exactly how they fit together, but we do know that they belong to God's plan of salvation.

b. The Man

1) His City

Cornelius lived in Caesarea, one of the most beautiful places I've ever visited. That spot of land juts out into the Mediterranean Sea. Today, there is nothing left but ruins. Caesarea was also the location of a military garrison. Pontius Pilate, and all the other procurators of Palestine made their home there because the headquarters of the Roman government was located there. The population was dominated by Gentiles with a minimum number of Jews. Caesarea was located about thirty miles north of Joppa (which is known today as Tel Aviv). The Roman Emperor Augustus had given the city to Herod the Great as a gift. Consequently a fortune was spent to make it into a beautiful city.

2) His Occupation

Cornelius was the centurion of an Italian band. He was quite possibly of Italian extraction. The word "band" refers to a cohort. A centurion commanded a hundred men. A Roman legion had six thousand men and was divided into ten cohorts. Each cohort contained six hundred men, and each cohort had six centurions. Josephus indicates that five cohorts were stationed at Caesarea (The Wars of the Jews, II. xv).

Jesus selected Cornelius as His man. He didn't choose him against his will; he had a mind to know God--he had a seeking heart. Cornelius had lived up to the light that he had, so God moved to give him more light. That is the balance of volition and sovereignty.

2. GOD RESPONDS TO THE SEEKING HEART (v. 2)

"A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. "

God responds to the willing, open heart. Election never violates volition; they always go together. I don't know how they do, but God knows. Cornelius was sovereignly chosen by God, but he also had a searching heart. God reached down and gave him the disposition to turn and seek Him even when he was dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1)

What about the heathen?

There are some people who will inevitably ask, "What about the heathen? Will they all die and go to hell without ever having heard the gospel?" That question has become a straw man that unbelievers continually present to Christians. I think the answer to that is graphically illustrated in Acts 10. If an individual lives up to the light that he has been given, God will give him more light. Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and gave his money to the people. The word "people" (Gk. laos) is often used in Acts to speak of the Jews. Cornelius was giving money to the Jews. He also prayed all the time. In his own heart and mind, Cornelius had come to an understanding of the true God. He had a certain amount of light, and he lived to the full capacity of what He knew. So God moves in to show him the full light--the light of the world, Jesus Christ (Jn. 8:12).

I don't believe for one moment that God will ever keep the truth from someone who wants to know it. For example:

1. JOHN 7:17--"If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine . . . . " If anyone really wants to do what God wants him to, God will give him sufficient light to

John MacArthur
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 7, 2010 at 8:47am

Carla,

I opted out of this discussion on Arminianism and Calvinism since what I was saying appeared to be offensive. However, I would like to address something you have in this post above.

You said:

Romans chapter 9 is referring to Israel ..past present and future..and how God will deal with that Nation.
(actually chapters 8-11:12) Paul is speaking directly to the Jewish people) Romans 11:13-36 we learn that Salvation is for all of us.

I understand your position that salvation is for all and I don't want to discuss that. However, you cannot say that Romans 9 only deals with the Jewish nation. Do you not believe that you are Israel? I certainly consider myself to be Israel. Note the following verses from Romans 9.

Ro 9:22-24

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? NIV

The verses do not just apply to a physical nation. This is the mystery of the Gospel - there is one people, not two. We are all one and all belong to our Father. We have been grafted in and quite unlike what some may want to believe, we are entitled to every promise that He ever made. We are not second class citizens in this Kingdom. In Christ there is no such thing as a Jew or Gentile. We are one. I am identified with everything He is doing and is planning on doing. I am no longer a Gentile (I was one) but now I am a Christian - a follower of Christ. In Christ there is no wall of separation. I am not sure of your reason to post such a thing but I have to disagree with what I think you are saying.

On the other issue, you and David are doing a great job. However, I cannot allow Romans 9 be taken away from me as that is one of my favorite chapters in the entire Bible. It most definitely does apply to us. Don't ever think you are a second-class citizen just because you were not born Jewish. You are as much a part of God's plan as Abraham himself.

A brother,
Roy

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