All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Michael, thanks for sharing that. Like Roy, I hold the conviction that Jesus will not lose those that are His.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Continuing a discussion from earlier in this forum because we ran out of "Reply to This." :
Amanda said:
So then the plain truth is that there are some who will choose God and others who will fall away? Since God already knows who is who and since He never changes, then there is no hope for those who fall away--no hope that God would ever change His mind about them, or even just one of them, and let them become part of "the elect"?
My reply:
Amanda,
Not exactly, because it is not based upon God changing His mind in my view. God has given man liberties, which we often call freewill. These liberties fit within God's plan. He knew the end before the beginning of time was initiated. He knows the outcome and all is unfolding according to the design from the beginning. Does this mean that the lost are truly lost and those to be saved will be saved? Yes, but only God knows which is which.
We coudl enter into the Calvin/Armenian debate, but that reallyis not the issue here. The outcome is the same either way in the end regardless of the process.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Amanda,
A point of clarity on my part. When I state that only God knows who is saved and who is not I am referring to other people, not one's self. I can know whether I am saved or not, but I cannot fully know the condition of another. I can have assurance regarding myself, but the heart of another is only known to God and that person. We can look to the fruit in someone's life, but that opens up a whole new discussion as to what that really means and I'll refrain from going there at this time.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Amanda,
My mistake for not elaborating more.
People use different terms to mean what you are saying in the last sentence. I prefeer to use the term "surrender." As God calls us we respond by surrendering unto Him. In this surrender we find life and freedom in Christ.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Amanda,
It is true that the word surrender is used when speaking of the sanctification process. Yet, we see that surrender is one of the key characteristics of the Christian life as a whole, even the part of being born-again.
The word surrender is applicable in various places because there are several places or points in life we come to that requires our surrender. We surrender our lives to Jesus as Savior. In this instantaneous moment we are changed and become children of God. We surrender to Him in the sanctification process as well. Our life is marked by many stages of surrender which take place over a lifetime.
The goal is always less of self and more of Him.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Exactly, and that is why we surrender to Him and not the will of others or to a religion. It is all about developing that personal relatinship with Jesus. All else flows from that relationship, including Christ centered fellowship.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Amanda,
I will respond to each aspect of what you wrote:
it says many are called but few are chosen. In the case of Judas, who was called and did follow for awhile but wasn't "clean", wasn't saved, then it is possible to feel the call and to follow by going to church and making lifestyle changes and "feel saved" but not be?
I would start with the fact that Judas died before the New Covenant was initiated and before the day of Pentecost. Both are significant events. Judas was not changed, sealed and indwelt. He was called, but was not born-again. When we think about the O.T. and N.T. We recognize that one looked forward to Jesus coming and was in a state of waiting for the fulfillment of His work. Now we look back to the cross and recognize the work was finished and the Day of Pentecost ushered in the church age and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to permanently indwell born-again children of God.
Can someone feel saved and not be? I would use a different term. They assume they are saved based on a code they seek to live by or look to an event that may not of really had any significance because true repentance was not attached. In other words they think they are saved because they said a prayer, but never truly came to Jesus in repentance. These people can make lifestyle changes, work really hard and show religious fruit all of which is for naught if they missed Jesus. So in essence they go through life trusting in something instead of trusting in Jesus and thus they always wander if they measure up.
Take note that Jesus gave the parable of the “Wheat and the Tares.” In that parable we see that no one was able to distinguish the difference between the wheat and the deadly tares, that is until the time of the harvest, or until the fruit had truly formed and blossomed.
And that is why they fall away and get drawn into something else, a religion like New Age or Scientology?
Both the saved and the unsaved can be fooled, at least for a season. This is why we must be on guard against false teaching and testing every spirit (1 John 4:1). The Word of God is the standard and the Spirit of God guides us. God is perfect and we are imperfect people.
And then it is possible to not be living for Christ or following Him but to be in rebellion and still be saved? OSAS
Yes. Rebellion, whatever flavor of rebellion it may be, always leads us off the path of God. This deviation from the path does not cause one to become unsaved because salvation is not based on works, but God’s work and applied by grace. One does not get saved (changed) and the unsaved (unchanged) only to repeat the process a hundred times in one’s life. God has options when dealing with the rebellious. He can let us wander and allow the world to be our tutor that teaches us our real need for Him and we come running back. He can apply discipline in our lives (Heb. 12). He can take us home instead of leaving us in the situation. These are just a couple of His options.
And if you have doubts, does that mean you probably are not saved?
I think that this depends on the type of doubt. I believe most people will experience a fleeting moment of “What if?” If one remains in the area of doubt that continues to question their salvation over a prolonged period of time I would start to wonder if they are saved, but as stated before, only God knows for sure when we are talking about others. I struggle to understand how when one has seen God (spiritually), had their eyes and heart opened, and experienced His saving power that the person could continue to question their salvation. The best answer for me is either they were never saved or they have been taught something other than God’s grace.
Hope that helps.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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OK, Judas died before the New Covenant was initiated and before the day of Pentecost.
“Judas was not changed, sealed and indwelt.” So then doesn’t that mean that none of the disciples were saved at the Last Supper when Jesus said they were “clean” except for one? Judas was not clean, not saved. How were the others clean before being saved? Is it just written that way because Christ already knew who would be born-again on the day of Pentecost?
Their faith was in Him, but they were not yet changed and sealed. They were trusting in Him and not their works. Their faith was the same as we see described in Hebrews 11 prior to the cross. It has always been about faith, the difference is that this side of the cross we experience all that the born-again process grants us.
Then, we may assume we are saved but not have true repentance and never truly come to Jesus in repentance? And if we always feel like we never measure up or never get it right, then that is evidence that we have not truly come to Jesus in repentance? We aren’t trusting Jesus but in self? Our own performance? What is true repentance?
The answer to this is not easy as you are lumping a lot together in these few statements. True repentance is required for one to be saved. Many say a prayer and walk the aisle, but that in of itself assures nothing. Assurance comes as God works in us revealing Himself. It comes through the work of God that includes changing us at salvation. Keep in mind that we all start as babes in Christ and must grow in grace and knowledge. This includes our faith expanding and in the process we can and should experience assurance regarding our salvation. Repentance has three basic features. 1) Turning from sin (the desire to). 2) Turning to God. 3) A change of mind where we truly recognize sin, God and our need for Jesus. Repentance unto salvation is not simply an action but an event that occurs as God works on us and in us.
You wrote: “Take note that Jesus gave the parable of the “Wheat and the Tares.” In that parable we see that no one was able to distinguish the difference between the wheat and the deadly tares, that is until the time of the harvest, or until the fruit had truly formed and blossomed.” Wouldn’t this mean that no one then can know until the day of harvest when their fruit is truly formed and blossomed, that they are really among the wheat and not the tares? Or just that no one can know who is saved other than the self until then?
No. I can know if I am a wheat or a tare. As a tare I might can fool you into thinking I am a wheat. Only God knows for sure regarding others. We can assume, believe and hope, but only God knows for sure..
You said, “The best answer for me is either they were never saved or they have been taught something other than God’s grace.” Something such as salvation is a free gift but it is conditional and based on your continued lifelong service to Christ Jesus?
Yes, many think that in order to remain saved they have to live up to a code or perform in such a away. Our salvation is solely dependent upon Jesus and His work on our behalf. We come to Him through faith by grace, both works of God. We continue in Him because of faith and grace, both works of God. We never live up to the requirement, for the requirement is perfection (Mat 5:48). We are holy and righteous because He is holy and righteous. We become the righteousness of God in Christ.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Amanda,
The first two paragraphs go together. Yes, repentance is part of the salvation process along with faith and God's grace to name a few key elements.
The last paragraph view is where I disagree, and is where the debate is found between eternal security and losing one's salvation. The two groups disagree not on continuing in the Lord, but on how that looks. The teaching you were exposed to puts the requirement for you to remain back on your shoulders instead of continung to trust in Christ and His work alone for that salvation. To me it is inconceivable to think we are saved by grace and maintained by works. Jesus does the keeping of the born-again believer. This does not give the believer a pass, but changes the approach. I serve Jesus because I love Him, not because I fear losing that which I could not earn to begin with if I didn't live for Him.
I have to step out for a while.
Lord BLess,
LT
TheNET Corrdinator -
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Amanda,
You have a good grasp of what I am saying and that which I believe to be Biblically correct.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Amanda,
My encouragement is to simply take the next step in life. Get up tomorrow and face whatever that day has and don't let yourself be drug down, but rather be lifted up in the love and grace of Jesus.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Dear Amanda,
I have been where you are. The thing that brought me out was to learn about God's Grace. Scripture says "And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me."
Ask God to show you His Grace, and then once you have prayed that....wait on the Lord to show you.
As LT says....'BE Lifted up in the Love and Grace of JEsus" His Love will not let you go, and His Grace is sufficient. Rest in these two truths and you will be assured of your salvation.
In His Love, Carla -
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