Losing Salvation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 9, 2010 at 8:03pm

Greetings Yael,

The Scripture is very clear in that it teaches that sin leads to death. From the very first sin in the Garden of Eden up to this very day we know that the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). We also know that God has made a provision for our sin that removes us from the penalty of death so that we are found justified. Romans 6:23 states, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The gift of God is His Son, Jesus Christ. For the Bible tells us the following in John 3:16-18, “JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.” The Bible goes on to tell us that Jesus did all of this while we were still at our worst as seen in Romans 5:8 which states, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Now looking at James 1:13-15 we see that the penalty of sin is death. This is true and has never changed. The text illustrates for us the origin of sin and that origin is within man. Sin does not originate with God, but with man and because of that sin we deserve death. If the text stopped at verse 15 you may have a case, even though the text is illustrating the origin of sin and the consequences, both of which have not changed. Fortunately the Word of God carries on into verses 16-18 and reveals the answer to the sin problem and it is not man trying harder. James 1:16-18 states the following, “JAS 1:16 Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.” Jesus is the answer to our sin problem. He died the death that was required of us in our place. The penalty is fully paid in Christ, so much so that we have the privilege to become the children of God (Jn. 1:12). Paul states the following as well in Romans 6:8-10, “RO 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.” This aligns with what Peter said as well in 1 Peter 3:18, “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.”

We are kept by God, because Jesus Christ died for us. He paid the penalty that we could not pay. He gave us a free gift that we could not earn nor be able to keep if it required our works to keep it.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on November 10, 2010 at 12:46am

Hi LT

What do you make of this, it seems pretty straight forward to me.

(Heb 6:4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift,
who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
(Heb 6:5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
(Heb 6:6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying
the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. [NIV]

This is saying to me that I can accept the Holy Spirit (be saved) and fall away never to regain my salvation.

Blessings
Rod

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 10, 2010 at 2:39am

Rod,

I have to leave for work, but will answer in more detail later. In the meantime let me ask you a question:

How do you reconcile 1 John 1:9 with Hebrews 6:4-6 based especially on your last statement?

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on November 10, 2010 at 2:58am

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

LT, I didn't write the bible, I'm just trying to understand it.

I understand what is being said in 1John 9, but it is not saying that once we are purified from all unrighteousness that we will never turn back to unrighteousness.

Now I believe that there is no contradiction in scripture, I am very keen to hear how you are going to get around Heb 6:4 in light of 1 John 9

Blessings
Rod

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 10, 2010 at 3:05am

Rod,

I think this is a good answer for your question.

1John 5: For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith. 5 And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

This is what I see more than our perseverance, our preservation. We overcome by believing in Jesus and not our performance.

How do we explain Hebrews 6:4 for it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come- 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

If we say these verses are saying that true Christians that fall away are impossible to bring back to repentance then we have to rewrite much of the bible that tells us how God’s Mercy is renewed daily and how He is faithful to forgive us when we approach the throne of Grace.

ENLIGHTEN – intellectual understanding, they have receive biblical instruction. Understanding the Gospel does not mean a person is saved or regenerated. See John 1:9 where it is obvious that Jesus enlightens everyone born in the world. TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT – This can only be a Christian we say, but all men experience the general goodness of God, but that does not mean that they are all saved. Tasting Jesus or the Holy Spirit (the gift), the Gospel does not guarantee salvation. Many people experience a tasted (as many do today as well) the miracles of Jesus, they are around the church or church folks, but do not go beyond a taste, like the seeds that felt on the rocks or by the side way, or among the thorns etc… only one seed felt on good ground. PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT = the concept of partaking is used in 3:1, 3:14 and 12:8 of a relationship that only believers have , but the context must be the final determining factor her. This context 4-6 seems to exclude true believers. People can partake of the works (miracles) of the Holy Spirit and not accept Christ. The convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit can be rejected which makes them partakers in such way. The impossibility of THOSE THAT FALL AWAY to be RENEWED TO REPANTANCE is because they have rejected Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. With full revelation they rejected the truth such as the Pharisees did in their time.

If we want to make these verses to mean that we can lose our salvation then we have to admit that once lost, one could never get it back, for it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 10, 2010 at 3:19am

Rod,

I do believe as you do that there is a group of people that will fall away. However, I do not believe these people are among those that are of the redeemed. They are as that seed sown among rocky soil. They believe for awhile but in time of temptation they fall away. These people may have all the appearances of salvation but they are not going to make it. Jesus talked about these people when He spoke of the last days:

Mt 24:10-11
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, NIV

I do not believe this group will be in heaven. I do not believe the group you are referring to in Hebrews will be in heaven. To me they have never been saved. To you perhaps they have been and then lost it. Everyone must be tested to prove their faith genuine. However, I do believe in deathbed conversions.

Only God knows the heart of a person. I believe there are many phonies in the church.

I don't think we are as far apart as you might think. We do look at these two different (maybe even three) groups a little differently. That is my take, anyway.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 10, 2010 at 1:11pm

Rod,

As I was working today I spent time contemplating and praying about my response to you. I don't want to just give you information and then we bat the information back and forth. I am prepared to write a response, but I believe that there is a better solution. I am going to ask you to take the time to read the whole book of Hebrews. Read it in one setting as it is one letter written to Hebrew believers. Take into consideration the target group of this letter as you read it. Note how Jesus and His work are portrayed throughout the letter. Pay especially close attention to the concept of "shadow" in the book. If after reading the letter as a whole you still feel that the context and the few verses leave you with the same conclusion I will be glad to engage further. Please do not tell me you have read it before. I would like you to read it afresh and I trust that the Holy Spirit will bless you in this endeavor, even if you come away with the same view regarding these few verses.

Again, I am not putting you off. I feel this is the best approach to take regarding your question.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on November 10, 2010 at 1:35pm

LT,

Thank you for your reply - I have read the book of Hebrews many times and in one sitting. I am not a OSAS proponent and these are the scriptures that sway me which I will leave with you and then I will bow out of the discussion otherwise we are just going around and around:

1Co 10:12 So that he that thinks to stand, let him be careful that he not fall.

Mat 24:10-11 And then many will be offended, and they will deliver up one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will be raised and will cause many to err.

Mar 14:27 And Jesus said to them, All of you will be offended in Me in this night, because it has been written: "I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered." Zech. 13:7

Luk 8:13 And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a time, and in time of trial draw back.

Joh 6:66 From this time many of His disciples went away into the things behind, and no longer walked with Him.

Act 24:15-16 having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. And in this I exercise myself to have always a blameless conscience toward God and men.

Rom 11:19-23 You will say then, The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. Well! For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith. Do not be highminded, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear that it may be He will not spare you either. Behold, then, the kindness and severity of God: On those having fallen, severity. But on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise, you will also be cut off. And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.

1Co 9:27 but I buffet my body and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be disapproved.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?

Gal 1:6-7 I wonder that you are so quickly turning back from the One having called you by the grace of Christ to another gospel, which is not another; only there are some troubling you, even determined to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Eph 5:6-7 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for through these things the wrath of God comes on the sons of disobedience. Then do not become partakers with them;

Php 3:10-12 to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, having been conformed to His death, if somehow I may attain to a resurrection out of the dead. Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Col 1:22-23 in the body of His flesh, through death, to present you holy and without blemish and irreproachable before Him, if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,

1Th 4:3-8 For this is God's will, your sanctification, for you to abstain from fornication, each one of you to know to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, even as also the nations do, not knowing God; not to go beyond and to overreach his brother in the matter, because the avenger concerning all these is the Lord, even as we told you before, and solemnly testified. For God did not call us to impurity, but in purity. Therefore, the one that despises does not despise man, but God, even He giving His Holy Spirit to us.

2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

1Ti 1:19-20 having faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away, made shipwreck concerning the faith, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

2Ti 2:16-18 But shun profane, empty babblings, for they will go on to more ungodliness, and their word will have growth like gangrene, of whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who missed the mark concerning the truth, saying the resurrection already has come, and overturn the faith of some.

Tit 3:7 that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jas 5:19-20 If anyone among you goes astray from the truth, brothers, and anyone turns him back, know that the one turning a sinner from the error of his way will save the soul from death, and will hide a multitude of sins.

1Pe 1:14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves to your former lusts in your ignorance,

2Pe 2:20-22 For if by a recognition of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they have escaped the defilements of the world, and again being entangled they have been overcome by these, then their last things have become worse than the first. For it was better for them not to have recognized the way of righteousness than having recognized it to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: "The dog turning to his own vomit;" also, the washed sow to wallowing in mud. Prov. 26:11

1Jn 2:24-25 Then what you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you will abide both in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise which He promised us: everlasting life.

2Jn 1:9 Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ, this one has the Father and the Son.

Jud 1:5-6 But I intend to remind you, you once knowing these things, that the Lord having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed the ones not believing. And those angels not having kept their first place, but having deserted their dwelling-place, He has kept in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of a great Day;

Rev 2:10-11 Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw you into prison, so that you may be tried; and you will have affliction ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. The one who has an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. The one overcoming will not at all be hurt by the second death.

Let us remain in Him.

In His Love
Rod

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 10, 2010 at 1:52pm

Rod,

I do believe in eternal security and I too have no desire to go round and round. I could address these Scripures and place one's that present eternal security and then you would address those and on and on we go.

I agree it is time to move on. lest something new is interjected into the conversation.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 11, 2010 at 9:17am

Amanda,

The key is in understanding God. He Is. All is unfolding as He ordained and planned. We see something as changing, God sees it as continuing and unfolding. We are trapped in the here and now, God sees the beginning from the end. This just goes to show us that though we can know God personally, we cannot fully understand Him or His ways.

ISA 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
ISA 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

When we look back over the history of the world we will fnd that God made numerous covenants. The newer version is only newer to us in that it is revealed in time. God already knew the next phase and these phases all connect to the previous. Thus, God did not change, but continued to reveal pieces of the whole. To us it may appear changed, but to God it is only continuing on with His plan.

When we see that Jesus fufliffled the Law we recognize taht He did not do away with it, but fulfilled it. The code was not destroyed, but hung on the cross.

Hope that quick and brief response helps.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 11, 2010 at 9:30am

Amanda,

No question is stupid and if I implied that please forgive me. We are changed, but God never changes. Our change is in alignment with His plan and purpose. Thus, the change we experience does not change Him in any way, but does change us. God remains the same.

God's plan is continuing and unfolding. Within that plan we are literally changed, but that does not change Him or even alter His plan, but actually fulfills it.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 11, 2010 at 9:54am

Amanda,

My reply to this will be posted at the current end of this forum in order to open up a new set of "Reply to This" buttons.

Lord BLess,
LT
TheNTE Coordinator

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