Losing Salvation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 11, 2010 at 10:19am

Hello sis Amanda,

Excellent questions.

God does change us. Thank you Lord. God's character never changes, who He is is immutable, but that does not mean that He won't change what He has created.

There are three different types of "will" of God that we can see in scripture and understanding them is very helpful to interpret scripture correctly. I bring this up because His will never changes, but which will are we talking about?

a) Sovereign decretive will, the will by which God brings to pass
whatsoever He decrees. This is hidden to us until it happens.

(b) Preceptive will, is God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the power but not the right to break.

(c) Will of disposition describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals what is pleasing to Him.

It repenteth God that He made man

That is called an anthropomorphisms, two Greek words, “anthropos (man) morphae (body). anthropomorphic means that you refer to God in terms of a man’s body or a human body. It is simply a device by which to say something about God, who is otherwise indescribable, inexplicable.

God is Spirit yet scripture states: “The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth.” There is a scripture in Isaiah I believe that states that the sphere of the earth is the resting stool of the Lord. God has no feet, so this are words used to describe God in ways we humans can understand.

When we read and God repented that he made man all that is to us is that from our vantage point, we understand that that means, God felt bad, so bad about the condition that if He were a man, He would say to himself, “I wish I’d never made them.” But obviously that is not really how God feels, because if that’s how God felt, He’d know He would feel that way because He knows everything, and if that’s how He really felt He never would have made them in the first place.

A good book to own is knowing scripture by R.C. Sproul. It helps us to understand how to interpret scripture.

Blessings

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on November 10, 2010 at 2:40pm

LT,

Are you saying that no amount of sin can have any consequence for the sinner?

My understanding of the following scriptures (the ones that u mentioned) do not contradict the verse that I quoted. James is not referring to original sin, he is referring to any serious sins that may lead to death of the soul. Surely, there are sins that are more serious than others, say if one tells a small lie is as bad as if, say one kills a person.

So, to me it seems like James is warning people NOT to fall into sin so as not to risk death of the Soul.

the verses you quoted from John have indeed deal with how one gains salvation, but that is how they go. Now, since all scriptures have to be read as a whole, a Christian is ought to read what James says as well.

As I see it, James is not contradicting what is written in John. They are however, dealing with different aspect of Salvation. One tells u how to gain it, the other what to do NOT to loose it.

I was under the impression that Jesus had not come to change the OT, but to fulfil it. So both Jews and Christians are called to KEEP the 10 commandments, are they not?

For Jews not keeping the commandments has serious consequences. right? And I believe the same to be true for Christians.

Jesus said that 'if you love me, keep my commandments'. So, I wonder, if nothing can take away or salvation, I would like a Christian to explain me why will he/ she bother to keep the commandments?

I know many would say: Well, once you convert you change your life. But that to me is a simplistic explanation that does not convince. For I can guarantee that every person in this forums sin every day...and would we go as far as say that they are not saved because they sin? No, that would not be right.

So, my understanding is that one MUST believe to be saved, but to assure that he will remain saved and not fall away, he has to work on perfecting him/herself through rejecting sin.

John is not saying that because one believes and thus is given the gift of salvation he will never loose it if he rejects the gift of faith and rejects the laws of God. Is he?

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 10, 2010 at 3:34pm

Yael,

Are you saying that no amount of sin can have any consequence for the sinner?
There are several aspects to the question. The sinner who has not come to Christ and been saved will experience eternal separation from God (Rom. 6:23). The one who has been born –again may experience consequences for sin, but never be separated from the Father (Rom. 6:23). One may experience divine discipline (Heb. 12). One may die early because of a failure to live a lifestyle that is healthy. Therefore we may experience consequences, but not condemnation (Rom. 8:1).

My understanding of the following scriptures (the ones that u mentioned) do not contradict the verse that I quoted. James is not referring to original sin, he is referring to any serious sins that may lead to death of the soul. Surely, there are sins that are more serious than others, say if one tells a small lie is as bad as if, say one kills a person.
The reference to the origin of sin. Sin originates within us and that is evident all the way back to the Garden. We are guilty of sin, each and every one of us. That is exactly why we need a Savior. Without Jesus we would have no hope. The Law cannot save us no matter how hard we try to live by it. Our sin in this life leads us towards death, but for Jesus dying for us and we becoming born-again that would be our fate. Regarding the degree of sin we recognize that any sin regardless of our view of it as big or small separates us from God and only through Jesus do we overcome that separation by being born-again (1 John 5:1-5).

So, to me it seems like James is warning people NOT to fall into sin so as not to risk death of the Soul.
Who will not sin in this life? Who will not sin again in this life? Is one’s salvation to be based upon how well they can keep the rules? No, for it is by grace, not works, that we are saved (Eph. 2:8-10). Please do not misunderstand this comment. We are not freed to sin, but are free in Christ and the penalty of sin has been done away with for the born-again believer. The works follow salvation, but salvation is not dependent upon the work.

the verses you quoted from John have indeed deal with how one gains salvation, but that is how they go. Now, since all scriptures have to be read as a whole, a Christian is ought to read what James says as well.

As I see it, James is not contradicting what is written in John. They are however, dealing with different aspect of Salvation. One tells u how to gain it, the other what to do NOT to loose it.
Yes, the whole counsel of God’s Word must be taken into account. When one reads the whole of God’s Word and the full context in James we see that it is talking about where sin arises from and it arises from within man, not God. We see that the penalty of sin is death. We also see that new life is given through Jesus Christ. As I said previously and repost here, “JAS 1:16 Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.” Jesus is the answer to our sin problem. He died the death that was required of us in our place. The penalty is fully paid in Christ, so much so that we have the privilege to become the children of God (Jn. 1:12).

I was under the impression that Jesus had not come to change the OT, but to fulfil it. So both Jews and Christians are called to KEEP the 10 commandments, are they not?
You are correct, but what does “KEEP’ mean to you? If one is required to live a perfect life they are sure to be lost, that is if not but for the work of Jesus on their behalf. No one can keep the commandments flawlessly. Some would say that you repent every time you sin and you should, but not to get saved again, but to be restored to usability. I repented of my sins and received Jesus as my Savior Redeemer. My repentance is seen in the desire to turn from sin, and turn to God, while at the same time there is a change of mind that took place according to the original Greek word for repentance. This change of mind is brought about by God in us. We believe because He has opened our eyes and minds. We come to Him because H e draws us.

For Jews not keeping the commandments has serious consequences. right? And I believe the same to be true for Christians.
Depends on what you mean by serious. If by serious you mean condemnation as in separation from God for eternity, no. If you mean we may lose something or be disciplined, yes.

Jesus said that 'if you love me, keep my commandments'. So, I wonder, if nothing can take away or salvation, I would like a Christian to explain me why will he/ she bother to keep the commandments?
This is the simplest of the questions you have asked. Because we love Him.

I know many would say: Well, once you convert you change your life. But that to me is a simplistic explanation that does not convince. For I can guarantee that every person in this forums sin every day...and would we go as far as say that they are not saved because they sin? No, that would not be right.
Converting is an interesting term that leaves much to be desired. I did not convert to Christianity … I got saved. God changes us spiritually. We become born-again, are sealed by the Holy Spirit, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, are called the children of God and call God our Father. We begin this new life as babes needing to mature in strength and knowledge. We still live in the sinful flesh that awaits being changed. The battle we face is lifelong that is exactly why we need Jesus to carry us all the way through because we cannot depend on ourselves. We would fail, but Jesus never fails.


So, my understanding is that one MUST believe to be saved, but to assure that he will remain saved and not fall away, he has to work on perfecting him/herself through rejecting sin.
We differ her. It is God who wills and works in us accomplishing the perfecting. Jesus prays for us to be sanctified (John 17:17-19; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). His request is for the Father to do it. Why, because we cannot do it on our own (Romans 6-8). There are other areas relating to this (i.e. positional and experiential), but that is for another day.

John is not saying that because one believes and thus is given the gift of salvation he will never loose it if he rejects the gift of faith and rejects the laws of God. Is he?
How can one cease to believe when the faith they believe with is from God to begin with? How can a person who has been born-again become unborn? One of the problems in this whole discussion IMO is determining what happens at the moment of salvation. Many think you believe and now set off to live for God. I see so much more taking place. God does a miraculous work in us and we are no longer the same. The old is gone and the new is come (2 Cor. 5:17). It is impossible for me to cease believing that God is real and that Jesus died for my sins. I cannot give back the gift once I have been changed.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on November 13, 2010 at 10:23am

Hi LT,

I thank you so much for your patience & for your explanations, however, I still have a few more questions, I hope you don’t mind...


The sinner who has not come to Christ and been saved will experience eternal separation from God (Rom. 6:23).

Here you are saying many things but 2 stand out, I will use myself as a example to illustrate my thoughts:

1- I, Yael, am not SAVED ( according to your Christian view)
2- Since I, Yael, am a sinner I will endure eternal separation from God.

Then

The one who has been born –again may experience consequences for sin, but never be separated from the Father (Rom. 6:23). One may experience divine discipline (Heb. 12). One may die early because of a failure to live a lifestyle that is healthy. Therefore we may experience consequences, but not condemnation (Rom. 8:1).


1- What is born again?

2- Some Christians - the 'born again' ones, may be punished for sin by dieying? But if the born again Christian is saved ( according to the Once Saved always saved view)
Isn't DEATH of the BODY a REWARD rather than a PUNISHMENT or consequence for sin, as you put it?


The way I am reasoning is this:

If I were confident that natural death of my body would take me to the Kingdom of God, than I would be glad to go to Heaven early!!

You said on Original Sin

The reference to the origin of sin. Sin originates within us and that is evident all the way back to the Garden.

My understanding of Original or Ancestral Sin is that of the sin that mankind inherited because of the First sin committed by Adam & Eve, NOT because the sin is originated in the individual, according to the Christian belief. I think that's a pretty consensual theology concept, isn't it?

On Keeping the commandments:

You said Christians keep the Commandments 'because we love Him'.

So, is it right to assume that if one loves him but because one might be weak and fails to keep the commandments he/she is fine? They will go to Heaven JUST AS WELL AS the ones who strive and do their utmost to keep his laws?

Considering that God is JUST. Why would he allow those who are not as good at keeping his laws to receive the SAME reward as those who TRUELY abide in Him?

Your comment on James' passage about sin that lead to death:

We see that the penalty of sin is death.

I thought you said that a born again believer can NEVER be separated from God and if one is NOT a born again believer, he is NOT going to heaven anyways, because only those who believe in Jesus will enter heaven... So, to whom James' teachings apply to?

Considering to your own statements, your interpretation of this passage of James seems to be an error to me...

Lastly, even though I have not asked all my questions - I don’t want to abuse your patience -

You said:

One of the problems in this whole discussion IMO is determining what happens at the moment of salvation.

I thought you said in your other reply that all Christians are growing in learning. They can disagree, as long as they are sincerely searching for they truth.

Now, I know I am not a Christian, but I yes, these are my opinions or rather, the way I interpret the Christian scriptures, just as much as you comments are your intepretation. Since there are many different interpretations, who knows if mine is not the right one?

Unfortunately, as you said, after 2000 years Christians are still trying to figure it out, so surely no one can point out and say: “now this is definitely right but that is definitely wrong“. Can they?

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on November 13, 2010 at 10:43am

Yael, you have asked some great questions! I'm sure that LT will give you answers that are very well thought out.

Can I interject? The questions you asked have been answered by my two favorite Rabbis: Rabbi Yeshua and Rabbi Saul. We know them as Jesus of Nazareth and Saul of Tarsus who became known as Paul the Apostle.

Your first line of thinking seems to be: how can a person sin and still have fellowship with God? This is a big question, which should not be answered lightly. The person will often posit the question in an apparently opposite point of view: if I do good things, how can I not have fellowship with God - doesn't my good work automatically please God and give me fellowship with Him?

Jesus answered this line of thinking in his famous "Sermon on the mount" which is a manifesto for Godly living and having a relationship with God. I highly recommend reading it - it is the finest piece of theological training in the history of the world. In Matthew 7:21-24 Jesus makes a point, in the middle of that sermon, saying ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."

So, clearly, our goal according to Jesus, is to put His words into practice - not to do good works as we believe may be suited to God. This is the challenge for every one of us. Seek diligently to find whether we are doing this.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 13, 2010 at 1:11pm

Yael,

I still have a few more questions, I hope you don’t mind...
Feel free to ask. Responding to questions regarding the Word is one of my passions.

LT Said (The sinner who has not come to Christ and been saved will experience eternal separation from God (Rom. 6:23).)

Here you are saying many things but 2 stand out, I will use myself as a example to illustrate my thoughts:

1- I, Yael, am not SAVED ( according to your Christian view)
2- Since I, Yael, am a sinner I will endure eternal separation from God.
You understand the Christian view correctly. In order for one to be saved “from” eternal separation they must come to Jesus by grace through faith in repentance. The Bible teaches that you are currently lost because of sin that separated you from God. The same Bible says that you can be saved through and in Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:23 and Rom. 6:23).

Then

LT Said (The one who has been born –again may experience consequences for sin, but never be separated from the Father (Rom. 6:23). One may experience divine discipline (Heb. 12). One may die early because of a failure to live a lifestyle that is healthy. Therefore we may experience consequences, but not condemnation (Rom. 8:1).)


1- What is born again?

2- Some Christians - the 'born again' ones, may be punished for sin by dieying? But if the born again Christian is saved ( according to the Once Saved always saved view)
Isn't DEATH of the BODY a REWARD rather than a PUNISHMENT or consequence for sin, as you put it?

The way I am reasoning is this:

If I were confident that natural death of my body would take me to the Kingdom of God, than I would be glad to go to Heaven early!!
#1: Number 1 was addressed in the previous response and will refer you back to that response.
#2: Yael, please be careful to make sure you use my words instead of posting what you think I meant by what I said. I did not say that one may be punished for sin by dying. I said the following: One may die early because of a failure to live a lifestyle that is healthy. Therefore we may experience consequences, but not condemnation (Rom. 8:1). One of the mistakes people often make is assume that discipline is negative, meaning punishment. Discipline is corrective in nature and does not necessitate punitive actions, though it can include a form of punishment. God in His grace can take the person home removing them from a life that is ensnared by sin. The reward, which is really a gift and not a reward, was effective the moment of being born-again. Whether the person lived to be 30 or 80 heaven awaits.

I am glad to go home when God is ready to receive me. Until then I am glad to serve Him and seek to bring glory to Him in this life. If my goal was simply to go home that would be selfish of me. If all Christians instantly went home, who would reach the next generation since God has chosen to work through the church, His body on earth?


You said on Original Sin

The reference to the origin of sin. Sin originates within us and that is evident all the way back to the Garden.

My understanding of Original or Ancestral Sin is that of the sin that mankind inherited because of the First sin committed by Adam & Eve, NOT because the sin is originated in the individual, according to the Christian belief. I think that's a pretty consensual theology concept, isn't it?
I have no idea what you mean by consensual theology concept. Sin entered the world through Adam and Eve. I was under the curse of sin at birth because of their actions. If I had not been born-again when the books are opened in the end I would stand judged not because of what Adam did, but because of every sin I had committed. Thanks be to Jesus, the Lamb of God, all has been paid for as I have been washed by the blood of the Lamb.


On Keeping the commandments:

You said Christians keep the Commandments 'because we love Him'.

So, is it right to assume that if one loves him but because one might be weak and fails to keep the commandments he/she is fine? They will go to Heaven JUST AS WELL AS the ones who strive and do their utmost to keep his laws?
I can’t answer your question as asked. Here is why. I see no difference between the people you describe. I love Jesus and desire to obey His commands. I will fail again, yet I love Him and desire to please Him. I am not going to heaven because I love Him (I love Him because He first loved me) or because I keep His commands. I am going to heaven because of what He did on my behalf. Grace extended and salvation given.


Considering that God is JUST. Why would he allow those who are not as good at keeping his laws to receive the SAME reward as those who TRUELY abide in Him?
The Bible does not say that they will receive the same reward(s). In fact there are various rewards that we will receive or not receive based on our life lived for Christ. Salvation, though, is not a reward. It is a gift that cannot be earned. It is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). If we take the passage in Ephesians 2 and read on to verse 10 we see that the works folow the work of God in us.


Your comment on James' passage about sin that lead to death:

LT said (We see that the penalty of sin is death.)

I thought you said that a born again believer can NEVER be separated from God and if one is NOT a born again believer, he is NOT going to heaven anyways, because only those who believe in Jesus will enter heaven... So, to whom James' teachings apply to?

Considering to your own statements, your interpretation of this passage of James seems to be an error to me...
What is the promises found in James 1:12-18? We will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who “love him” (v.12). God has chosen to give us birth through the word of truth. That we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created (v.18). Sin originates in man, but Jesus has paid the penalty for those who have been born-again. He took the written code and nailed it to the cross (Col. 2:13-15). We could say that one of the promises in the text is that sin leads to death. Amen. And Jesus Christ died that death for us (Rom. 5:8 and Rom. 6:23). If His death has not covered us we, born-again children of God, would still lost and unchanged.

Lastly, even though I have not asked all my questions - I don’t want to abuse your patience -

You said:

LT said (One of the problems in this whole discussion IMO is determining what happens at the moment of salvation.)

I thought you said in your other reply that all Christians are growing in learning. They can disagree, as long as they are sincerely searching for the truth.
You are making my responding to you difficult. You are paraphrasing things I said based on your view of what I said. Please take the time and post my exact words that you are referring to in the last sentence so that I can clearly respond to this question.


Now, I know I am not a Christian, but I yes, these are my opinions or rather, the way I interpret the Christian scriptures, just as much as you comments are your intepretation. Since there are many different interpretations, who knows if mine is not the right one?

Unfortunately, as you said, after 2000 years Christians are still trying to figure it out, so surely no one can point out and say: “now this is definitely right but that is definitely wrong“. Can they?
You appear to be attempting to blanket all that is believed by Christians with this statement. This just simply is not the case. There are many things we as Christians understand as true and unchangeable doctrine. We disagree in some areas. There is a difference between primary and secondary issues. The Scripture is not open to any personal interpretation. The goal is exegesis, but there are some areas we struggle to understand. This does not diminish the truth of God or His work on behalf of man. Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus died on the cross shedding His blood as payment for sin for all who will call upon His name. Jesus rose again and has ascended. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father and is coming back. Man is a sinner and needs forgiveness. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. These things are not negotiable or left to whatever you believe or I believe. These are true because the Bible clearly teaches them.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 10, 2010 at 4:22pm

Yael,

LT will answer your question. However, I have a question: is it possible for anyone to be saved from eternal damnation are all we all in danger of losing that? Why did Jesus die such a terrible death on the cross? Are we still in danger of eternal damnation even if we have earnestly sought Him and asked Him to save us from that destiny? The soul that sins shall die - however, those who have faith in Christ are forgiven all their sin. The victory that overcomes the world and all its curse is our faith in Jesus. Without that faith we are eternally lost. With that faith we are eternally saved.

Can adultery send you to hell? Is that one of the bad sins you were talking about? If so, Jesus said just a thought of it was equivalent to adultery. That same equation could be applied to hate (murder), jealousy (envy), pride (self over God) and on and on we could go. If sin can send you to hell than that is exactly where you are headed unless, of course, you have completely gained control of your entire thought life. I know you are working to bring every thought captive to Christ. However, have you accomplished that?

Why would Jesus tell us that our thoughts were equal to the sin itself? His purpose is to convince you that you have absolutely no hope in yourself. You will grow as you continue to walk with God and you will do better in this area. However, you will never ever get to the place that you are without sin. Sin is sin. There is not such thing as an acceptable sin as you are mentioning. If Christ did not die for our sin we are all in a heap of trouble. If sin by itself can send you to hell, then that is where we are all going.

Yael, what sends a person to hell is unbelief. When a believer sins, he hates it. Even if he falls into sin, he desperately hates the sin he has fallen into. He feels he might as well just give up, though, since his weaknesses are so great he cannot overcome. Why does God allow this? Sometimes we need to be aware of just how much He really does love us. We need to understand how great is His mercy and understanding. He is not excusing any of our sin. He will deal with all of our sin. However, He is not going to send us to hell because of it. Jesus paid the price for every person that turns to Him and asks Him to save them. He promises that He will save everyone that calls out to Him. Have you done that? Have you called out to Him to be saved from your sin? It is your sin that you need to be saved from. Only Jesus can do that.

I have yet to meet a person that believes you can lose your salvation that claims they achieved a place in life where they no longer sin. (Actually, I did meet some years ago that claimed that God had sanctified them to the place that they no longer sinned. One gentleman said that he hadn't committed a sin in over forty years. I knew the man and knew better. He said that in a church service.) We all understand we are still dealing with a sin nature that sometimes overcomes us and causes us to fall. You are wanting to put acceptable levels of sin that will not cause us to lose our salvation and then the bad sins that will cause us to lose our salvation. I am telling you that even if you had a bad thought you are guilty of enough sin to send you to hell. If Jesus didn't save you from your sin, you are in big trouble. These that are claiming that sin can send a believer to hell are not really understanding the consequences of what they are teaching.

Yael, faith in Christ saves you from your sin. Unbelief, however, will send a person to hell. All have sinned and come short of God's glory. No one can escape the punishment of eternal damnation without a Savior. He will save every single person that calls unto Him for salvation.

Can I choose to walk away? You cannot walk away from something that you believe. You might fall into sin but if you believe that God created this world and sent His Son to save this world, that is what you believe. You believe in Him and not in this world system. Everyone who believes in Him will come to Him. His call is strong and powerful. He will accomplish in you what He has designed for you. Yael, you need to put your trust in Him and get your eyes off of your self. You will never be good enough in yourself to go to heaven. Our only hope is Jesus. I am confident that He will complete the work in me to get me home and I give Him all the praise.

Ro 10:11-13
As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." NIV

Roy

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on November 13, 2010 at 11:12am

Hi Roy,

So far all I have managed to figure out in terms of Christianity is this:

Jesus came to the world to bring GOD to all people.

God's people once were the Jews. The gentiles and pagans were excluded of Salvation.

Jesus came in the picture bringing a message that did not change absolutely everything that God had taught His people thought the prophets, but simply, he extended it to all mankind.

Jesus said that he did not come to abolish what had been said, but to fulfil it.

To me salvation is a KEY issue in any system of belief.

Christian salvation, according to Jesus, as I read him, is still the same as it has always been: Love your God, Keep his Laws.

BUT in order to expand it to all people God gave the world Jesus, so that through faith in him those who were once Gentiles & pagans and had no hope, could became adopted children of God.


It is funny that you quoted Ro 10:11-13 because u see, that is exactly how I see things.

However, you seem to be focusing on this: he who trusts in him will never be put to shame , as though it concerned faith, but it concern trust, which is another thing.

Trust & faith are not the same thing, but are very closely related. What Rom 10: 11-13 conveys is natural!¬ Any Jew knows that if you TRUST your God, He won't let you down.

Now, how many people do you know, well meaning as they might be, faithful people, who sometimes worry about their future, their finances, their earthly lives?


You see, TRUST in God requires that one surrenders all to God. Thus he does not worry.

But can you say that you never worry about a thing? And I am sure you have faith in God. So trust and faith are not the same and the verse in Romans does not deal with salvation when it talks about 'not being let down', it is more like it is saying, when you trust God you've got nothing to worry about and he will look after you.

I cant quote the passage, but I seem to recall that Jesus said one should not worry about what to eat, what to wear and so on.... He was teaching about TRUST, not faith.

But tell me, can anyone say : I believe in God. But, well, I dont really keep his laws because it's hard. But, yes, He will save me any how, because I trust him? No, because how can you trust someone if you dont have faith in them?

If they do, they are lying themselves!

Many in this site seem to focus a whole lot on the promises of Salvations, the rewards of faith. But I dont see many talking about what GOD expects from his Children...


Furthermore, if OSAS is right, how about the sins against the Holy Spirit, which cannot be forgiven?

Can anyone GARANTEE that a Christians might not fall into such a temptation ( not everyone is like Job, you see?) and curse the Holy Spirit?

Therefore if only one single believer ever falls or has ever fallen into such a sin, then the OSAS is an error!

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 13, 2010 at 12:19pm

Actually, Yael,

The verses in Romans 10:11-13 are speaking about salvation. All through the New Testament we are advised to trust in the Lord, to not worry, but folks do worry. Thus, the continual encouragement from our Lord that He is going to take care of us. However, the one thing we must know is if we are saved or not. Yes, He will take care of all our needs but sometimes we do have to suffer the consequences of our actions. He has not promised to rescue us from all those consequences. Those are the kinds of things we humans deal with day to day.

However, with salvation all that is different. Do you see this? Jesus has not paid the consequences of our day to day actions. Yet, He has paid the ultimate price for our sin. We have been saved from eternal damnation. When we put our faith and trust in Jesus, we are completely freed from the ultimate consequence of our sin. If we believe in Him we will not perish but have everlasting life. You are mistaken on your idea of what the Gospel is. It is not living according to God's Law, it is putting our faith in Him for salvation. The purpose of His death is to pay for our sin. If that death did not pay for our sin then what was its value? Was it to show us God's love? That doesn't get it done? What good is it to die for someone if it doesn't really do them any good. He died for my sin. I will never see hell as a result of His death. I will never suffer the ultimate consequence for my sin.

However, I still will face other consequences for my actions and will still experience anxieties, etc. until I find perfect trust in Him. However, that doesn't negate my salvation.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Michael Vernon McEntire on November 10, 2010 at 11:43am

Very good message, Amanda.

I've been listening to (and sometimes participating in) this debate for twenty years, and I've seen the writings of those Christians who were debating these questions centuries ago. Those who take their stand at the poles think their positions are crucial. I just finished reading a devotional on a conservative Roman Catholic website, thinking I've never read a more beautiful brief exposition of Salvation by Grace.

I once denied the deity of Jesus Christ and walked away from orthodox Christianity. In humility, I must now say that I really don't know if I would have spent eternity in Hell if I had died then, but those few years that I spent "away from Christ" certainly felt like an eternity in Hell.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 10, 2010 at 1:16pm

God's kids always come back. He will never lose even one lost sheep that belongs to His sheepfold. Sometimes we just don't know if we were really one of His or not. If you are, you can't get away. You might stray for awhile, but you will always come back.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 10, 2010 at 4:10pm

Roy,

hahahaha ohhh man I tell you the truth makes me smile and laugh with joy. check out this song bro. It is so good to be in Christ. Is a lovely day in Cali. This world is no cup of tea, but is the bomb. God has been so good to us. Life is more than what we see.



Michael Vernon McEntire, I have missed your insightful comments. :)

Mischelle -

Love you.

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