All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on
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Hi Roy,
Nice story, I hope you weren't almost hit by the car.
I was, I went right under the wheels and spent 3 months in hospital, smashed up when I was 5 years old.
. However, I am just wondering if you could call the experience of losing something other than salvation. As an example: let's suppose I am standing on a street trying to blow the grass clippings off of the street from the mowing I had just finished. I am using a grass blower which is very loud. I thought I turned to make sure no car was coming but I forgot to keep turning and sure enough a car was coming straight at me. My son saw the accident that was about to happen and ran out to warn me just in time for me to escape the speeding car. Thus, I was saved from either death or a serious injury. How do I lose that? Once you are saved, you are saved. You can never lose that.
Anyway, yes your son saved you from being hit by the car and no one can take away the fact that he did save you.
However if you blindly step out in front of a car tomorrow and your son isn't there to save you, what happens?
Once saved, not always saved.
If you return to your vomit tomorrow after accepting Christ, today and can't give up that sin, are you still saved?
I don't believe so.
Blessings
Rod -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Rod,
What are you saved from? Your own words contradict what you are saying. What we are saved from is eternal damnation. If accepting Christ does not eternally save you then we are not saved until the day we die and then we figure out if we are really saved. Your position is we have to wait until then to find out if we are really saved.
If I return to my vomit I was never saved but just had some kind of experience. If I am really saved from eternal damnation, that means I will never experience it. You are not talking about being saved from anything. You are talking about the new birth experience as if you could really lose that. I was born a Wilson. That will never change. No matter what I do I will always be a Wilson. Even if my earthly father would disclaim me, I am still a Wilson. We have God's Word, however, that he will never forsake us.
You are allowing your own words to contradict yourself. Yes, no one can take away from me the fact that I was saved from eternal damnation. I think you must still be seeking for salvation if you don't think you are yet saved from eternal damnation.
You are attempting to be worthy of salvation. You can never, ever achieve that. I know you dislike me characterizing you but I simply don't know what else to say. It is absolutely impossible to lose salvation. The idea contradicts itself.
Roy -
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Roy,
Why this:
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Why is there any need for a book of life or judgement if we know we are already saved.
When we do get to heaven is it like 2 lines, line on the left salvation, line on the right damnation.
We will not know until Christ opens the book of life and we face judgement.
There is no contradictition except when you say that I am saved today and from here on I will never do anything again that can put my salvation at risk.
I'm afraid our minds are far more carnal than that. We will sin again, every single one of us.
And some will not return to Christ, having previously accepted Him.
I personally know such people.
They do exist. They accepted Christ (saved) baptised into the Holy Spirited (amen) and then years later turned away and denied Christ.
Blessings
Rod -
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Rod,
You are using the word "saved" to mean something else. When you say we will not know until He opens the book of life, then we are not yet sure if we have been saved yet or not. You are still seeking to be saved from something if you are not yet sure that you are saved from that. What we are disagreeing on is terminology.
If I am saved from eternal damnation then I will never experience it. If I do experience eternal damnation then I was never saved from it. Correct?
It is perfectly okay to say you need to make sure of your salvation since you may not really be saved. It would be silly to say you can be saved one moment and then unsaved another. Your people were never baptized in the Spirit if they returned to a state of being lost. They and you just thought they were. The Holy Spirit is a seal guaranteeing our future inheritance.
Roy -
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Sorry Roy,
You didn't know these people or witness their witnessing for our Saviour.
These were committed saved Christians who had put their lives in the hands of Christ.
They were baptised and received the Spirit and it showed mightily in them.
Something changed in them, years later and they turned away.
You cannot say they weren't saved only God has that right.
Thay had dedicated their life to Christ and then walked away years later.
If it is a term that you don't want to use then use, born again, received salvation, it doesn't matter.
They had it and they lost it.
If you want to use an analogy then "if I manage to save $10000 over 12 months and have that money in the bank it is saved.
I have no intention of ever spending it as I intend leaving it for my kids.
I get the news tomorrow that the bank has been wound up and there is no money.
My money is gone, my savings are gone.
I have lost what was saved."
Blessings
Rod -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Rod,
You have stated that Roy cannot say these people were not saved. Only God could say that. Is it not also true that you cannot say they were saved. Only God can say that?
Do we evaluate God and His saving grace and power by the standards of the world. Banks and governments will fail, but GOd never fails. That which has been put on deposit with Him cannot be lost.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Hi LT,
Jesus said that we will know them by their fruit.
I saw the fruit of these people and I can say that they were saved.
I used an analogy similar to that of Roy's saved from being run over analogy.
I agree 200% that God will never turn his back on someone, but we are not God.
We are miserable, carnal, sinful creatures that can turn our backs on God.
God will not lose someone that has asked to be saved, but what if that person changes their minds.
We are certainly capable of that. God will not force us to accept Him, He wants us to come to Him searching Him.
Some may decide they don't want God today and some may accept God but change their minds later.
God never fails, I agree.
We fail over and over again.
Blessings
Rod -
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Rod,
There are no "reply to" buttons left, thus I am replying to my own in order that it will show up under your last response.
What you can say for certain regarding your friends is that you saw their outward actions and they appeared spiritual. They appeared to be following God. You saw the beginning of what appeared to be fruit, but in the end was it really fruit? In other words in an orange grove there are trees that look really good. The fruit looks delicious, that is until you taste it. There are other trees that look horrible and the fruit look deformed, yet the when you taste the fruit it is wonderful. Thus, you saw the outward apperance, but you and I cannot read the heart. Many live according to the intellect and run a religous race, but never actually find Christ Himself. Even Satan masquerades as an angel of light, meaning he is not easily identified in many cases.
Regarding turning back. I cannot see the possibility of a born-again believer turning back. They can wander, but once they have been born-again they are transformed and the possibility of being un-transformed does not exist. One does not become a child of God and then not a child of God to become a child of God to become not a child of God. We cannot receive a new heart then lose it only to receive a new heart again only to lose it, etc... I believe that the bible teaches us that we are spiritually changed here in this life. We become babes in Christ needing to mature and are awaiting the physical change which is yet to come.
We are capable of falling into rebellion, but not capable of ceasing to be a child of God once we have been spritually changed. This is a critical point.
My heart goes out to those who live life wondering, and some even in fear, whether they will be saved or remain good enough to stay saved. I have no doubts regarding the eternal security of a born-again believer. I respect the right of others to question it and to debate it, but this is one area I am sold out and completely convinced.
I pray that God will give you that assurance as well.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Rod,
I am going to interject something and forgive me if I am out of line. It is three in the morning here and I just happen to be up.
I am getting into an area here of what would be called my understanding of soteriology. I do not see the possibility of what you are describing. If I truly believe in Jesus, that is not going to change. It is not a matter of what I do but of what I believe. If I really believe in Him, even though I might fall away for a season, I will inevitably come back as the prodigal son. I will come to my senses and say, "What in the world am I doing in this pigpen?" That is the difference between the believer and the unbeliever. The believer will always return. The unbeliever will not. We all must be tried to test whether or not we really have faith.
To completely fail the test (an "F") means we are lost. However, even a "D" is passing. I think my grade is a D- but that is still passing. In my mind I give everyone else an "A" but myself a D-. That is something God is working with me on, but I do know I am His. A "D-" will get you into heaven. Again, this is my understanding of Scripture.
The truth is, faith gives us all an "A" since we are graded according to the work of Jesus and not our own. Faith is demanded. Without it we are naked. With it we are clothed with the righteousness of God in Christ. You cannot get more clothed than that.
Roy -
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LT,
It is now 3:30 here and 4:30 where you are. You must also be an early riser. I think it is afternoon in Australia. -
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Roy,
Yes, it is early here. I got up at 3:50 AM EST. I am a church planting pastor and thus I have a secular job as well to help meet our financial needs that requires some early rising :-) I will be heading out the door in a few minutes.
You are up at 3 AM because ..... why? :-) Just kidding.
On an off day I am usually up by 6 AM and tell people that is sleeping in for me ... hahaha.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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