Judas Iscariot, the condemmed??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 31, 2010 at 5:01pm

Hey beloved sis Rita,

Check this out servant of the most high.

I am running out the house to go shopping. I love shopping :) and I have not read the responses to your post yet, but here goes something to think about.

>>Of course God knew they would fall. What I am saying is that He did not decree that they would fall. Decree meaning that He ordered it. God did not order either of these two to fall. But...He knew that they would fall.

Fallen angels do not have a chance to be redeemed. They disobeyed and now are eternally condemn. Couldn't they say is not fair of God to give humanity redemption through Christ and not providing for them such redemption? I imagine that a third of the angels are in the millions, yet they will all perish. They are angels created a little above us, why don't they receive the grace of God? As we do. Is God unjust? Is it because they don't need faith to believe? They know God is real, but so do we (Rom. 1) and the faith unto salvation was a gift from God Eph. 2:8-9. Is it that we were born sinful and hence deserve a chance? Unlike angels that were not born sinful. I don't know the answers to those questions. I know God is Holy, just, perfect, good and righteous, so my hope is in Him.

These are difficult things to explain with our finite understanding. The apparent conflict between man's moral responsibility and God's sovereignty is something I cannot fully explain. But I know this much if God did not include in His overall plan for Adam, Eve and Satan to fail than there is no possible way it could have happened.

BOA -It is important that we first consider the alternative to God ordaining the fall event to show that it is really quite and untenable and unsustainable position. The truth of God's word is honored not in holding exclusively to one truth to the exclusion of another truth, but in believing the whole counsel of God. The Bible plainly teaches that man is responsible for the sin he commits and it also teaches that God is sovereign. You would be correct theologically to say that God is not the author of evil and that man alone is culpable for the sin he commits. You must also consider, however, that God is sovereign and has thus left nothing up to chance. That word "nothing" is a universal negative. For if chance were to exist then, of course, God would not be sovereign and thus, God would not be God.

God did not coerce Adam to commit sin and fall, but he certainly ordained it. Even someone who thinks that God merely allowed the fall, must admit that before God created the world he already knew what the future would be, and so it was within his Providence for such events to take place, for he could just have easily decided to prevent the fall...but He didn't. But we believe that while God did not make man sin coersively he certainly ordained such events to occur. Consider that if God did not decree the fall then evil is something completely outside His sovereign control ... If evil came into the universe by surprise for God, totally apart from His providence, then there are some things He does not know or things He is powerless over and therefore God would, by definition, lack omniscience and omnipotence. And then how do we know whether He will be able to defeat evil in the future if evil is outside God's control even though the Scripture plainly says that God ordains all events that come to pass (Eph 1:11).

As for how it could be that God decreed the fall. Obviously it is ultimately for His glory. In it He showed to the angels and all creation His manifest wisdom, justice and mercy and all of His perfections. He does not operate people like puppets. Adam freely chose to rebel ... God did not coerce him... and now fallen men freely choose to reject Christ, apart from grace. You ask, how could God ordain evil? Well, let me give you a clear biblical example which shows that he does, so you don't think I am just blowing smoke.

Consider that Christ's crucifixion was a certainty which God planed in eternity and prophesied would come to pass in the Old Testament. But also consider that men would freely choose to crucify the Son of God. See Acts 2:23 which brings the two together -- "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." This concurrent series of events taking place simultaneously is called compatibilism, which is how the Scriptures really answer this question.

So God foreordained the most evil event in history, the crucifixion, yet He lays blame for it completely on the choice of godless men, according to this passage. You must embrace the teaching in the Scriptures that God ordained an innocent man's death at the hands of sinners, yet they freely did so because they wanted to. You may not understand how God works in such a way without coercion, but you must submit to the fact the the Holy Scripture, through and through, teaches this quite matter-of-factly. Why does God do this? Well, for one, after the crucifixion event we now begin to understand that Christ did this for the good of His people, though we may not have seen it at the time. Prior to His execution, the disciples were told by Jesus, "you do not now understand what I am doing" and even Peter tried to dissuade Him. However, God used evil for good and did so blamelessly.

There is a similar idea in Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

These Scriptures texts must be accepted as authoritative. Someone might argue that they were an exception ... but there is no biblical rationale for believing that. It must be admitted that the Scripture plainly teaches that God ordains evil events and remains blameless, events which include the self-determined choices of man.

God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

In conclusion, when determining the truth of a matter we must never simply use naked unaided human logic, but always let our logic be ruled by the highest presupposition which is the Holy Scriptures. We may not like the result but what God has revealed, this we must embrace and teach. Otherwise we make God in our own image, and present to others a God other than the one who reveals Himself in Scripture. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/decree_fall.html

ohhh man I am running late now. All your fault hahaha Just kidding beloved. :)

Blessings

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on November 1, 2010 at 4:19am

David,
You, Roy, and I will simply have to disagree about this topic. I see things one way and you see them another. Period. For me to respond to all you have written would be me writing 3 pages to defeat your one. I could probably do it, but who would read it?

Blessings,
Rita

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on November 1, 2010 at 4:38am

I would Rita but I know what you are saying......

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 4:45am

Me. If I am wrong I want to know it.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 6:27pm

Rita,

I have only one thing to tell you sis:

I
Love
You
Very
Much! :)

Your King is my King. Your God is my God. All I know is that you are a child of God as I am. Saved and sealed - amen beloved? Amen.

Roy - When you grow up maybe you can be as cool as me hahahaaha ohhh man I am too silly. hahaha

I make up text words and abbreviations: BOA means Beginning of Article. EOQ = End of Quote. Sometimes I use BOQ, which means Beginning of quote.

Rita I would read it hon., but is all good. We both have spoken our views and like LT has stated, we are not gonna settle this issue here, but I sure do enjoy discussiing these biblical topics. One thing is for sure beloved. As you called folks to believe and repent using their free will, so do I my friend. Anyone who will come to Christ will find His arms wide open. So come just as you are before your God. The greatest treasure remains for those who GLADLY choose Him NOW.

Love to you Rita, Roy, Linda, Rod, Wicus, LT, Carla, Louis, Scribe and all AAG world.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 4:52am

OK, all you young texters. I know what BTW and LOL mean, but what does BOA mean? I even figured out what IMHO meant. I first thought you were talking insurance.

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 1, 2010 at 9:32am

Roy,
i second that .. what does BOA mean?
and IMHO? what does that mean?

clearly I am not a young texter.. or even an old texter for that matter, :-)

I understand BTW and LOL... but then there's 'lol' in small letters... one of them is 'Lots of Love' and the other is 'laugh out loud'. Which is Which?

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 10:02am

Actually,

I did not know there was a difference between LOL and lol. I thought they were the same. I finally figured out from LT's posts (I think it was his - he is way more hip than I) that IMHO meant "In My Humble Opinion." Now, that I think about it I'm not sure who uses that. Anyway, David still hasn't responded to tell us what BOA means.

My older grandkids all text me and I have to figure out what they are saying. My younger daughter is educating me on how to read their texts. However, I haven't run into BOA yet. (Board of Appeals) - who knows? One thing for sure it is BOA (Beyond our Ability).

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on November 1, 2010 at 3:12am

Perfect sense Wicus.....(with a few slight alterations ;-) j/k

And I am with you wooooohoooooooo......

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 4:24am

Beloved Wicus,

Hey I just included Jonah in my last post ahahaha and I am about to respond to another of my Brother Scribe's post so let’s see where that leads us.

We can say there is a battle(which includes humans and angels), but not a battle between good (God) and evil (Satan). Jesus can just think it or speak it and Satan, a created being is gone. God fights through the Holy angels and us humans; we battle the fallen principalities with weapons that are not carnal.

To think of God fighting Satan is like saying a T-rex goes against an ant. And even that example is not good enough. Is like a microscopic thing fighting God.

2 Corinthians 10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Again I understand what people mean by a war between good and evil, but to me is so far from the truth that I needed to bring it up.

Jesus is in no struggle with a created being that is no match for Him. Satan can ONLY DO what He is allowed period dot dot. So there is no wrestling going on:

We have the book of Revelation to know were all this is going and who wins. Satan is used by God to accomplish his good pleasure. Am I saying God commands Satan to do evil, no not at all. God turns the evil we humans and Satan are responsible for, for His glory.

Wicus do you understand what is meant by the statement we choose by our strongest inclinations, hence our choices are not truly free, but driven by our desires. So is that truly free will? Tell me of one thing you can choose without having external or internal inclinations?

If it was not in God's plan for the devil to deceive Eve, are we then ready to say that Satan can do things out side God's plans, can he, can we do things outside God's plan? Remember Before the foundations of the world God knew in detail all that would happened. So how is that not planed? Ohhh I know why, because you think (I am taking the liberty here to assume, cause I know you are not gonna go crazy on me ahahaha at least I hope so hahaahah Come to think of it, are you Wicus the famous Wicus that went postal in Africa ahhahah J/K) that by saying He planned it, we/you are attributing God the doing of evil. That is not so, may it never be, God is not the doer of evil, but using logic, unless God allows it, let us use that word then, since people are more comfortable with it, God allowed evil to happened and included it in His plan would you agree?

God is immutable, there is no shadow of shifting with Him, and God does not change. Out of all the possible ways He could have made us, He made us and angels as He did, knowing very well we would fall, he not only allowed it, but included it in His plan. Nothing surprises God.

I know some of the posts are long, specially mines beloved, but they are worth reading.

Blessings to you

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 5:09am

Wicus,

Your position takes away the omniscience of God. You can't do that. That's a no, no. If God is not all-knowing then He is not God. I have heard some philosophers who were attempting to make God innocent of any wrong doing by saying that He chose not to know certain things. Wicus, here is a position that you would have a very difficult position departing: God knew that if He made Adam the way that He made him, He would fall. I see no way to take any of that away. You have to begin with that. Yes, he gave Adam the freedom to choose his wife over Him. He gave Adam the freedom to disobey Him. Otherwise, Adam would be a robot. I see no other way for creating a creature that could give God the joy that man gives Him. God considers man the pearl of great price. God considers man the hidden treasure in the field. Most people get those parables backwards. That is why God gave Himself freely for the redemption of man.

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 5:35am

Wicus,

This is the problem. Some how as much as Roy, Louis and I labor to explain in detail this matters, we must not be good teachers ahahha, our statements are taken wayyy out of context.

>>but I cannot believe that God intensionally made Adam to fall,

No one is saying that. I am not saying that. So let me try again. God knew exactly what would happen and by allowing it to happen He wills it to happen.

You know your kid is going to stick his head on a lion’s head tomorrow, you have all power and authority to stop him, but you don't because by his death you are going to teach something to the others. Did you intensionally made your son stick his head in the lions mouth?

NO of course not. You could have stopped him, but you didn', though you had all power and authority to do so.

Spiritual matters are not 100% accurately depicted by such examples, but do you understand what we are driving to?

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 11
• 12
• 13
• 14
• 15
• …
• 17
• Next ›
• Page