Judas Iscariot, the condemmed??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 31, 2010 at 4:20am

Louis my brother you have a great grasp of the word.

Blessings to you beloved.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 31, 2010 at 3:59am

Scribe It's always great to see you on the boards beloved,

You said the following:>>One conclusion that I have made, which has become one of my primary theological principles, is that God is not a God of force. That is to say that God will accomplish His will and purposes without forcing things to happen. He is not a Heavenly dictator ruling with tyrannical demand.

The question that immediately rises in me from your statement is the following: If God was to choose men according to His good pleasure unto salvation do you see that as God forcing himself on us?

This is how I see it using Sprout’s words:
The cardinal point of the Reformed doctrine of predestination rests on the biblical teaching of man’s spiritual death. Natural man does not want Christ. He will only want Christ if God plants a desire for Christ in his heart. Once that desire is planted, those who come to Christ do not come kicking and screaming against their wills. They come because they want to come. They now desire Jesus. They rush to the Savior. The whole point of irresistible grace is that rebirth quickens someone to spiritual life in such a way that Jesus is now seen n his irresistible sweetness. Jesus is irresistible to those who have been made alive to the things of God. Every soul whose heart beats with the life of God within it longs for the living Christ. All whom the Father gives to Christ come to Christ (John 6:37).”

>>The fact is that we must come to this conclusion then: Predestination and God's soveriegnty are not in contradiction with our Freewill

I am in agreement with your above statement if the definition of free will to you is the following: the ability to choose according to our hearts desires, inclinations, biases, prejudices etc. choosing according to our strongest inclinations.

>>From having read the dialogue and narrative of the Gospels, as well as the prophesies you cite, it is very clear to me that God was speaking to Judas - pleading with him NOT to betray Jesus

Mat 26: 24 "The Son of Man is going just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been (more profitable and wholesome) for that man if he had never been born".

ok bro you are gonna have to refresh my memory because I cannot recal such pleading. But i will go back and refresh my memory.

>>Was it true that God wanted Judas to betray Jesus? Could it be true that God intended to punish Judas for doing the very thing that would result in salvation for millions of others while not for himself?

God decreed Judas to betray Jesus. Judas is being punish in hell not because God made him do evil or created evil on his heart, but because he sinned. He did not believe in Jesus. He had no faith in the Lord. How do we explained that God harden Pharaoh’s heart, doesn’t that mean that God created evil in Pharos’s heart, no!, as we all know the Holy Spirit restrains the world from being as evil as it can be.God can harden the heart by one of two ways. By going into the heart of man and creating evil or by simply removing the restraining power of the Holy Spirit, which is what I believe the bible means when it speaks of God hardening the heart. He as it’s stated in Romans gave them up to their lustful ways; He is passing judgment over them and will allow them to be as evil as they desire to be according to His perfect and good purposes. God has the power to make any of us do what He wants, but God is not evil or the doer of such.

>>1. At every point in life, you and I are morally responsible for our choices.

So are you saying that before we are born again our liberty or ability to choose according to our strongest inclinations, what is known by most as freewill is not in bondage? We are dead in trespasses and sins. We are responsible for our choices, but we have no ability to choose God until God initiates the process. The saving faith that saves us is a gift from our Lord. Eph. 2:8-9.

Salvation is of the Lord!

Blessings and I love to learn and you have a beautiful attitude to discuss these issues, so I look forward to your comments.

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on October 31, 2010 at 11:41pm

David, you asked:

"If God was to choose men according to His good pleasure unto salvation do you see that as God forcing himself on us?"

My answer: I think that the way most of my Reformed brothers see God, or perhaps the way that they present God, is as a God of force and dictatorship. This is not altogether different from the way that the Roman Church presented God: a tyrannical dictator demanding your suffering in pergatory.

Rather, I see that the "Irresistable Grace" of Calvin's TULIP is that God made himself irresistable to me at my time of great need. That is: when I was engulfed by my own sin and the weight of the burden of my lost state of existence. God was merciful, patient, kind and incredibly gracious in allowing me to discover my peril before his seat of judgment.

To me, Jesus himself becomes the clearest picture of God. Reaching His hand out, desiring our repentance, showing His love and mercy to a lost and dying world. Consider the ten lepers whom Jesus healed: ten were healed and went their way. One returned with gratitude and awe for the gift he had been given. The tenth leper, as I call him, was the one who was truly transformed by the Irresistable Grace he had received. He retained his healing - and better than that he was transformed inside. Yet, for the others the grace was not irresistable. Did Jesus not desire them to be healed also? Clearly he did! Did God not intend for them to be transformed also? Clearly God was wooing them with this amazing gift - to be truly transformed inside as well as outside.

There were many young men in my city, of my age, who were equally given the opportunity to hear the voice of God when I did. And yet most of them did not. I cannot say that God wanted me to find Christ any more than they did. I cannot take credit that God's grace was irresistable to me when it was not to them. However, His grace was apparently quite resistable to them. Some will say this is evidence that God had not called them. This again contradicts Jesus words: "many are called, but few are chosen". Why was I chosen? Because I found God's grace irresistable. So, since it was his call and his grace that was irresistable - I can take no credit for receiving it. However, I cannot say, and I do not believe, that God did not also call those other young men. My Bible says God gives good gifts liberally to all men.

In your other question, you asked about how I see that Jesus was pleading with Judas. It is simply this: He pled with them all. He treated Judas no differently. In fact, from the surface, the other disciples could not see that Judas even had the capacity to be the betrayer. Jesus had apparently entrusted him with just as much, if not more, responsibility by giving him the purse. At every turn, Jesus taught the kingdom to Judas - just like the others. It is also apparent, that Jesus quotes Zecharias (I believe with the intention that his men would read it). Jesus also frequently quoted Isaiah to the Pharisees - from the very passages where God warned against those who would reject his servant.

My personal view on God is that he is calling "all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30).

That means Heathen and Churchmen alike.

The danger we may fall into, as I have said before, is thinking that we know it all and have this program figured out. I could be wrong, you could be right, God may force all of us to be one or another way... but that doesn't square with the overwhelming ways that I see His word calls to us to humble ourselves, by our own act of volitional choice, and follow Him. Ultimately, I know that I need his Spirit to make that possible. But I still have to choose. I still have to get up tomorrow and decide to follow Jesus, come what may.

~Scribe

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on October 31, 2010 at 11:57pm

Scribe,

Amen amen to both your recent additions to the discussion.

Blessings
Linda Ruth

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 2:28am

Hey bro Scribe,

My question was: "If God was to choose men according to His good pleasure unto salvation do you see that as God forcing himself on us?"

Let’s forget how our Calvinist or Reformed brothers look at the situation or present it and strictly deal with the issue with biblical understanding, if you will indulge me please. So with that said would God be involve in an unjust transaction, we are taking about the potter, in your biblical understanding if God elects unto salvation according to His will. Does that make him unjust or a dictator?

>>Rather, I see that the "Irresistible Grace" of Calvin's TULIP is that God made himself irresistable to me at my time of great need.

Though man in his natural estate is spiritually dead, that is, entirely destitute of any spark of true holiness, yet is he still a rational being and has a conscience by which he is capable of perceiving the difference between good and evil, and of discerning and feeling the force of moral obligation (Rom. 1:32; 2:15). By having his sins clearly brought to his mind and conscience, he can be made to realize what his true condition is as a transgressor of the holy Law of God. This sight and sense of sin, when aroused from moral stupor, under the common operations of the Holy Spirit, is usually termed "conviction of sin"; and there can be no doubt that the views and feelings of men may be very clear and strong even while they are in an unregenerate state. Indeed, they do not differ in kind (though they do in degree), from what men will experience in the Day of Judgment, when their own consciences shall condemn them, and they shall stand guilty before God (Rom. 3:19). THE HOLY SPIRIT Chapter 13

The "seed" sown is the Word. It was scattered upon various kinds of ground, yet notwithstanding the purity and vitality of the seed, where the soil was unfavorable, no increase issued there from. Until the ground was made good, the seed yielded no increase. That seed might be watered by copious showers and warmed by a genial sum, but while the soil was bad there could be no harvest. The ground must be changed before it could be fertile. Nor is it the seed which changes the soil: what farmer would ever think of saying, The seed will change the soil! Make no mistake upon this point: the Holy Spirit must first quicken the dead soul into newness of life before the Word obtains any entrance. Do not all the unregenerate resist, and refuse to heed that Voice? How, then, is that opposition to be removed? THE HOLY SPIRIT Chapter 11

It Is said the Lord opened the heart of Lydia, that she attended unto the things that were spoken by Paul (Acts 16:14). Her heart was first opened in order for his words to have any effect or give any light to her. And this must be done by an immediate operation of the Spirit of God on her heart. This was the regeneration now under consideration, by which her heart was renewed, and formed unto true discerning like the single eye" (Samuel Hopkins, 1792).

>>That is: when I was engulfed by my own sin and the weight of the burden of my lost state of existence. God was merciful, patient, kind and incredibly gracious in allowing me to discover my peril before his seat of judgment.

Are you saying at that point you were able to overcome your dead state in trespasses and sins and your heart desire for the living God?

>>To me, Jesus himself becomes the clearest picture of God. Reaching His hand out, desiring our repentance, showing His love and mercy to a lost and dying world.

So tell me beloved what do I do with my sheep hear my voice or better yet what do I do with Matthew 13 - 10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?”11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. 12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. 13 That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don’t really see. They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand.

To those who have a relationship with Jesus, parables deepen understanding and foster that relationship, but to those that who do not, parables increase the confusion and ignorance. They function both to enlighten the elect and to conceal. The apostles had been chosen individually by Jesus, they did not choose Him, He chose them, even the son of perdition was chosen so He could fulfilled the decrees of God. Judas never called Jesus Lord and was stilling from the treasury. He was not quickened to live by the Spirit as the others were. To you it is given to know the mysteries... So there where various purposes why He spoke in parables. The word of God, in its own nature, is always bright, but its light is choked by the darkness of men, their blindness and their state of deadness.
To drive the point even further the words of our Lord no dout intended on his disciples to show them the magnitude of the grace bestowed on them. They received what was not given indiscriminately to all. Did they deserved the privilege, certainly not, and by Christ declaring that it was given to them, gets rid of all merit. God gives the elect the honor of understanding His secrets. I can place many other such examples but this will get too long.


>>Did Jesus not desire them to be healed also? Clearly he did! Did God not intend for them to be transformed also? Clearly God was wooing them with this amazing gift - to be truly transformed inside as well as outside.

I see it a bit different. There is the greater reason to fear those moments when people have bursts of believe, for lack of a better word, when folks have a spark(s) of faith, which make their appearance in their lives, like the seed on the different grounds (some momentarily believed, they rejoiced for a little bit) was welcome but then extinguished; lively faith, which has its roots deeply fixed by the Spirit of regeneration, never dies, yet we have seen formerly that many conceive a temporary faith, which immediately disappears. Above all, it is too common a disease that, when we are urged by strong necessity, and when the Lord himself prompts us by a secret movement of the Spirit, we seek God, but, when folks have obtained their wishes, ungrateful forgetfulness swallows up that feeling of piety. The Lord desires all to come and the offer is on the table for all who will repent and believe to come. But a dead man is dead and though dead in sin he can still muster up by the Spirit's conviction sparks of believe I suppose. I do not think this is done by the Spirit to regenerate, but so they are without an excuse, for the true light enlightens everyone. John 1:9

>>This again contradicts Jesus words: "many are called, but few are chosen". Why was I chosen? Because I found God's grace irresistable.

Again we see it differently. In Romans 8:29-31 we read that all who are called are justified. If Paul is saying all who are called are justified then he could not be talking about the outward called, can he? So he must be talking about the other called I see in scripture. What is called the initial effectual called of God or it is also called at times the irresistible called of God, which is a term I dislike because even that calling can be resisted by man and God overcomes our resistance to his grace, I rather use the classical term, the effectual called. Is the called that brings about the Effect that God sovereignty desires and decrees. Going back to creation we see that God does not give an out ward calling to creation and then waits to see if creation listens (of course, natural creation does not have free will as we do), but rather He gives the command an imperative is spoken and effectually and irresistibly the light begins to shine. When Lazarus was resurrected he is brought back to life by the called of Jesus, he had no choice but to come back to his dead body which Jesus made a life in a command, which cannot be denied. So in the golden chain which call is in view is the first question that rises. There are two types of callings that I can see in the bible. The out ward called of the Gospel, which we do when we preach, but that outward called is rejected most of the time, so you are correct many are called but few are chosen, effectually called.

>>My personal view on God is that he is calling "all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30).

We are in agreement with that view and belief.

Blessings to you beloved.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 31, 2010 at 6:32am

Scribe,

I don't think any on this forum are at war with God or betraying His Word. I am not understanding your continual reference to the one that is so busy working to build the plans that they want God to bless that they find themselves at war with God. Are you speaking about those who have a different opinion on freewill than you do? Who are you talking about? I have a different opinion on freewill than you.

I think it should be noted that no one on this forum is seeking to do or doing the things you mentioned. I am sure you would agree with me.

I am looking forward to this forum continuing in the wonderful exchange of ideas that are taking place. We are all seeking to understand God more.

I believe Adam's fall was inevitable. It was a part of God's plan. While many good and wonderful people would disagree with me on that one, we are all seeking God.

God bless you, brother,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on October 31, 2010 at 6:43am

Roy and David,
I love you both as brothers, but.....God DID NOT DECREE Adam and Eve to fall. In fact, He created them with everything. THEY fell, not by God's Decree, but because they CHOSE to disobey a direct order form God not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Now, the fact of their failure was known by God from the beginning, before creation, merely expresses God's foreknowledge. God does not want any to fall short...the Bible declares it. Their hearts were not for God once they used their free will to disobey God.

To say anything different makes God the perpetrator of sin. You are saying He caused them to sin. He did not! To take it a step further. Lucifer was not created to sin. He is described in the Word as being an angel of light. He chose to be better than God. God didn't create that within him. He chose it for himself.

Blessings to you both,
Rita

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on October 31, 2010 at 7:27am

Thank you for your comment Sister Rita, hope you don't mind if i jump in here.

God DID NOT DECREE Adam and Eve to fall. In fact, He created them with everything. THEY fell, not by God's Decree, but because they CHOSE to disobey a direct order form God not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

Could the above statement mean that God did not know Adam and Eve would fall? Another question, why will there be a bad tree in the midst of the garden in the first place? Who created the tree? Why was it created?

As regards your statement about lucifer,
If you say God did not create "that" within him, it therefore means lucifer malfunctioned and if that is the case, where is God's accuracy? And this would mean there is another god somewhere that affected lucifer in a negative way. But the Bible did not record any other god apart from the Almight God as the creator. If we agree that God was ignorant of lucifer's future action, then we all are on the wrong track because that will mean that God cannot see the future, neither did he predestine any Christian. But God forebid, we are not against the word of God, but it is better if we accept the Bible the way we see it instead of using our emotions to change what is written therein.
lucifer choose to be better than God, this statement is correct. But the question is, where did he get the evil thought from? I believe his time was the first time such a thing happened, so he started it, but how did it enter him?

Blessings...

Louis

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on October 31, 2010 at 8:46am

Louis,
Of course God knew they would fall. What I am saying is that He did not decree that they would fall. Decree meaning that He ordered it. God did not order either of these two to fall. But...He knew that they would fall.

Lucifer also had the ability to obey God. He chose not to do it, rather to place himself above God. All the angels had the opportunity to obey God. One-third of them decided not to. God didn't decree it but...He knew they would.

There is nothing that man nor angel can do that will move God from having His Will done. We might think that we can stop God, but God has ALL the bases covered. If it were anything else, He wouldn't be God.

Blessings,
Rita

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on October 31, 2010 at 11:42pm

Louis, are you not saying here that Adam had freewill?

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 2:54am

Good question Scribe,

I am sure bro Louis will give you his opinion on the matter, but I will take the opportunity granted to clarify a misunderstanding that has occurred thought out these discussions.

When I say I do not believe in free will, which I don't high walls come up immediately and people are turned off to anything else that I have to say. So what do I mean when I say I don't believe we have free will, well I am glad you asked hahaha haha man I crack me up hehe

Free will is simply elective power. In my opinion no one in the world has free will. You do not and I do not. Only God has free will. We have the ability to choose from our heart's desires or inclinations. We choose according to the inclinations and desires of our heart, but we do not have the ability to choose something spontaneously or without intent or inclination being guided by our biases, prejudices etc... Everything I choose, I choose according to my strongest inclination, so that my choice has a cause. This is the meaning I and many others attached to "Free will": to freely choose something without outside influences, but that is not true of human beings. We always choose according to our strongest inclination, otherwise you would have an effect without a cause.

In his controversy with Erasmus, who defended free will, Luther frankly stated that free will is a fiction, a name which covers no reality...

You see before we are saved our will was slaved to our fallen nature. We were not free to overcome sin or to choose God, do you agree with were dead in our trespasses and sins. Enemies of Christ?

Once we become born again, we belong to God and our freedom to choose according to the inclinations of our heart still remains, but are always subject to God's good pleasure and He has every right to intervene in our lives and He does.

Brother Louis wrote this on my Theology group: You will notice that predestination is not a matter of our will but God's will. The scripture tell us that he had predestined us from the foundations of the world; we should not try to explain this with human wisdom. The statement tarries with the case of Jacob whom was chosen from the belly, that of King David, and even John de Baptist.

The case of Prophet Samuel is another example. Many people will say it was because Samuel's mother vowed to God that she would dedicate her son to God forever that made Samuel a Prophet and also he could have decided not to be a true servant of God. God predestined Samuel from the beginning. The case of Jeremiah is also another example, he was suppose to continue his duty as a priest but he could not help but to speak what he was told to speak by God. The case of Jonah is not an exception, everyone agrees that Jonah rejected God's order but God did not give up on him because it was his destiny to proclaim the word of God to the people of Nineveh. If you ask me, I'll say Jonah was forced to accept to deliver the message to the people of Nineveh because he totally rejected the instruction and was heading his own way when suddenly God arrested him in the belly of a mighty wale (It’s like going through torture in police custody to confess against your will). Everyone will agree with me that it wasn't Jonah's will to preach to the people of Nineveh. EOQ

So before regeneration our so called free will is in bondage and after and always is subject to God's real Free will.

Why do I labor this point so much, well because is important. If I believe that I have real free will then of course I am gonna think that I can choose God freely apart from my inclinations and deadness of spirit. If I understand that my will is not free from my passions and strongest inclinations which are dead to sin, then I will understand that I need God to zap me alive first in order for me to see Him irresistible.

Do you agree with the definition of Free will I have presented? You are a mature Christian and because I know you can discuss these issues without assassinating the character of those participating on the discussion I use my free will to ask haha.

I do not believe we have free will as many think of free will, but we do have it. Can I get more contradicting, you bet, but enough for now :)

Blessings beloved.

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on November 1, 2010 at 3:06am

Question:

If before regeneration our so called free will is in bondage and after and always is subject to God's real Free Will then would we never sin again?

I say this because God does not sin so if after we are always subject to God's real Free Will than it is my logical assumption that we would never sin again........

Yet I do...... I would be a liar if I said I did not!

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