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Judas Iscariot, the condemmed??
I have a question, and maybe I am misinterpreting the message, but I need to get clarification on it.
Jesus, during the final meal, after making known His betrayer said in Mat 26: 24 "The Son of Man is going just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been (more profitable and wholesome) for that man if he had never been born".
Am I mistaken if I say that here Jesus has actually condemmed Judas for what he would be doing? Yet, it is written in Zech 11:13 (first part of the verse) "And the Lord said to me, Cast it to the potter [as if He said, To the dogs!] - the munificently [miserable] sum at which I [and My Shepard] am priced by them!"
Here already the Lord has said what the price would be for the deliverance of our Saviour. It goes to reason that this was all already planned as we know, for the fulfillment of Jesus to thus perish and rise again, for us all to be saved.
Why then, if it was all predestined for it to happen, was Judas thus condemmed for what he was supposed to do?
Help pls
God's blessings be on you all.
Wicus
Jesus, during the final meal, after making known His betrayer said in Mat 26: 24 "The Son of Man is going just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been (more profitable and wholesome) for that man if he had never been born".
Am I mistaken if I say that here Jesus has actually condemmed Judas for what he would be doing? Yet, it is written in Zech 11:13 (first part of the verse) "And the Lord said to me, Cast it to the potter [as if He said, To the dogs!] - the munificently [miserable] sum at which I [and My Shepard] am priced by them!"
Here already the Lord has said what the price would be for the deliverance of our Saviour. It goes to reason that this was all already planned as we know, for the fulfillment of Jesus to thus perish and rise again, for us all to be saved.
Why then, if it was all predestined for it to happen, was Judas thus condemmed for what he was supposed to do?
Help pls
God's blessings be on you all.
Wicus
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Replies are closed for this discussion.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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Roy,
I really have to agree with forgiven in this one. Now this is just my opinion I'm no Bible scholar. But, we can, and I believe do, have free will AND God's plan for salvation can still come to fruition. I believe that forgiven really hit the nail right on the head when he wrote, I think God's 'plan'....can be disrupted or postponed. When we sin...it is not 'God's plan'....when Israel sins, and all of the nations of earth, it is 'not' God's plan...it is our own plan.....so God has to wait it out...until we have beat our heads against the repercussions enough to desire 'His way'......then God...can resume with 'His' plan.
That seems to be both in keeping with the Sacred Scriptures and with God's revealed nature; His goodness, fairness, long suffering, kindness, compassion, etc. -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Sharon,
Let's look at this from a different angle. According to the above statement man has power over God in that we can disrupt or delay His plan? That is a tough sell. God, I don;t want to follow you right now so you will just have to go into a paused mode until I am ready? Is that an omnipotent, ominscient, omnipresent God?
God has given man liberty, that is His plan. Man makes choices within the parameters of that liberty, again God's plan. God's plan is neither delayed or derailed by man's choices. Man is being man and at the same time God is being God and His true plan is coming to pass even as I write this.
Food for thought.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Permalink Reply by forgiven on
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I agree LT. God continues with His plan....whether we have disrupted it or not, He moves on,.....it is all His plan: that His plan will unfold. Within His plan he has taken our hard-headedness into account.
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Sharon,
Free will is better viewed as God giving man liberties. Let's use man's rules for a minute. In the U.S. we think of ourselves as the "Land of the Free." Are we really free, or do we have liberties? If I choose to drive 120 MPH on the interstate I will be pulled over and given a ticket or taken to jail. I was given the liberty to drive, but there were parameters given regarding driving. If I work within the frame work of those parameters there is no prblem. I could drive 60 or 70 MPH. I could get off at the next exit, but I am not free to exit via the on ramp.
God gives us liberties in this life. We make many choices, but He reserves the right to alter our plans, change our direction or stop us altogether. Paul wanted to go to Rome and Asia, but was prevented in both cases as seen in Romans 1:11-13 and Acts 16:6-10.
Food for thought.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Here is an A.W. Tozer illustration:
Perhaps a homely illustration might help us to understand. An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.
On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port. -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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All there is left for me to say is You Rock LT and Amen. :)
That man remains such a blessing, A.W. Tozer. A six grade education and became the editor at a publishing house. Wow. I am currently reading God's pursuit of man. Great read. -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Forgiven,
I don't want to disagree but what did you think about LT's explanation? I think yours may be giving man a little too much power. I agree that it is not God's plan for us to sin but I am confident that He is certainly aware of what we will do. However, you do make some very good points. I am just not ready to think that God will have to wait on me to get things right. He certainly didn't wait on Paul. He knocked him off his feet while he was on the road to Damascus. Have you ever been knocked off of your feet? Maybe you just thought you were beating your head against the wall or whatever you were beating your head against.
Roy -
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Roy
You are a wild man too hahaaha you got quite a way of telling stuff haha Is the teacher in you I suppose.
Love you man. -
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LT,
Actually you are free to exit via the on ramp...there may be (possibly) negative consequences to your actions but the negative consequences do not detract from the fact that we are free moral agents... in fact, one could say that these man-made rules are proof that human beings do have free will otherwise, why would there be any need for negative consequences?
Ofcourse all of this is far removed from the topic which is Predestination; ie, was Judas predestined to betray Jesus? I say that God's plan could have been carried out even if Judas had choosen not to betray Jesus unto death.
Blessings,
Sharon -
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Sharon,
That is the problem. Free means free, free from consequences. Liberty puts up parameters.
God reserves the right to intervene or trump our action at any time.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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LT,
So we really agree it is just that what I call 'free will' you call 'liberty'...tomato tamatoe, eh? And...I promise this is the last post about this because I think we are getting off on a tangent....but, if I could...You are absolutely right, God has the right to intervene or trump our action at any time...He not only has the right to, He has the power to, and no one can tell Him not to...the fact that He so often does not use His awesome power against us but, instead gives us freewill, is solid proof of His Magnanimity, His Glory, and is just another reason why He is to be so highly praised and honored because He has all the power, all the might! and yet He doesn't squash us like nats, even when we deserve it! Our God is an Awesome God! To Him be the Praise forever and ever!
Sharon. -
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You are alright Sharon a bit challenging at times, but knuckel heads like me appreciate that.
Your family is bless to have you and so are we.
Love you sis and most importantly - God loves you. :) -
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