Judas Iscariot, the condemmed??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 30, 2010 at 8:41pm

David,

The problem I have with the above position is that if God predestines according to the decisions and actions that people would make and do, isn't that a salvation based on works? I certainly can't give the answer what He bases His choices on but I do not think it is based on anything we do or are going to do in the future. I do not believe in a salvation based on works.

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 30, 2010 at 9:12pm

Why do we believe? Some say we are children of God because we believe. I would not get into a big argument about this but I don't think that is the case. I think it is the opposite. I believe we believe because we are children of God. You must be born again. But how are we born again? Is it because of an act of our will or of His? The wind blows where it wills. I know how this bothers so many. I hesitate to even speak of it because it is so controversial.

Jn 8:42-43

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. NIV

Why do some understand His call and others miss it all? Why is it that some hear His call and others are so busy with life, they never hear His voice. Jesus said:

Jn 10:14-16

14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. NIV

It is as natural for us to follow Him as it is with Jesus and the Father. Jesus does what He sees the Father doing. We follow our Shepherd. It is natural. The one that knows His voice naturally turns and follows Him.

He is my Shepherd. I follow Him wherever He leads. Jacob also heard His voice. Esau didn't. I cannot explain it. All I can do is believe what He says. I cannot deny His Word. He laid down His life for me. What praise can I give Him? How do I express my thanks? I will never deny His Word.

The Lord bless you. I would never want to offend anyone with what I believe. Thanks David for believing. I was beginning to think no one else out there did.

Roy

Permalink Reply by forgiven on October 2, 2010 at 1:52pm

OK, so here's a scenario/or a 'parable' if you will
....The local police know a man has comitted murder, but cannot prove it...... They also 'know' deep inside that it is most likely he will do it again. When he murders again and they catch him.....should 'the judge' forgive him because he 'knew' he was going to do it? Sounds ridiculous to me....

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 2, 2010 at 2:52pm

Yep, that would be pretty irresponsible. They need to get that guy off the street.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 3, 2010 at 1:17pm

Hey bro Roy,

Well, the part of the family who believes that we choose God (by exercising our free will or liberty to choose) and not that God chooses us apart from our decisions, have constructed a theology that makes our choice for God, not a work. They firmly believe that it was God who initiated the process by Grace and through the work of the Spirit one is giving an opportunity to choose or deny Christ. Hence the whole process is credited to God. The faith to believe (saving faith) is not believed to be a work, but a surrendering to the work of the Spirit.

So - although to us logically a choice qualifies as a work to them it doesn't. I know tons of Christians who believe that, who love and serve God, but I am taking the discussion beyond what our brother intended it for.

Thanks for asking beloved.

Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on October 30, 2010 at 1:40pm

Roy,

Let me get this straight...'works' to you means a person's 'decisions and actions' and when you state that you 'don't believe in salvation based on works', you are saying that you don't believe that a person's 'decisions and actions' have anything to do with their salvation, and furthermore, that salvation is not 'based on anything we do or are going to do in the future'.... is that right?

This statement seems to be very different than the teachings of the entire Bible.

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on October 30, 2010 at 7:44pm

Amen Sharon!

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 31, 2010 at 5:44am

Sharon,

I was away for a day and look at all that is happening on AAG. It is wonderful to find so much going on.

Let me say this: if salvation were up to the individual, would any choose to be lost? Who would actually choose to spend an eternity in hell over spending an eternity with Him in riches? I read somewhere that those who are in hell made the choice to be there. My take would be that they based their choice on something other than faith.

In order to be saved you must believe. It all comes down to where that faith comes from. Who would embrace hell? Can you imagine the nonsense of that question? No one in their right mind would ever choose hell over heaven. Who would choose an eternity of torture to an eternity of bliss? To me, that is all nonsense. Who would ever choose to be burned at a stake? Can you imagine? Does anyone choose hell? No!

Why, then, do they reject Christ? They do not believe. Why do they not believe? Is it their will not to believe? You do not decide what you believe. You believe what you believe. What is there about you that can embrace the supernatural? As I mentioned before, you are a special created being. God knit you in your mother's womb. Every day of your life was ordained before one of them came to be. Your steps were ordered by the Lord.

Pr 20:24

24 A man's steps are directed by the Lord.
How then can anyone understand his own way? NIV

Jer 10:23

23 I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps. NIV

To Belshazzar
Da 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways. NIV

This is an age-old argument. How much does God involve Himself in the steps of an individual.

You either believe one of the following or an alternate of the one:

God created the world and left everything to work itself out.
God created the world with a plan and continually works to see that plan fulfilled. (This is where I see you and Linda.)
God created the world with a plan and guarantees the outcome. In this scenario I see God leaving very little to chance. He determines the steps of man to guarantee all of that He has planned. There is no way everything He has planned will not happen. That would include everything from Adam to today and on into the future. (This is what I believe. I leave little to chance.)

You cannot say it is not Scriptural. You can say that it is not the way your interpret Scripture. If I were choosing between the two, I would pick the one which is most unlike the way I would do it since our ways are not His ways.

I am glad we are able to talk about these things in a civil way.

Roy

Ac 17:28
28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' NIV

Permalink Reply by forgiven on October 2, 2010 at 2:48pm

Raj, concepts in time are something I find fascinating. Parallax for instance, 'position of observer'. Einstien and Bohr speculated that we 'could not' observe a phenomena, because it had already changed into something else by our process of observing it.
Is a reflection still there in the amount of time it takes to happen? We could go on and on with this, but it should be on a different topic or forum. Praise God for His Living Word, that which always is, yet is always new. Makes me want to start at Genesis again and discover more of what I have missed, I do not have enough 'time' in this lifetime to read it enough times to understand. Thankfully...we have eternal life, so that we can learn of Him forever.

Permalink Reply by Dusty Rhodes on October 2, 2010 at 9:58pm

forgiven, I understand what you wrote. To me, when
one's perception of time changes, revelation occurs.
And the paradox of faith in a God we can't see: one wonders?
Does revelation occur and then time takes on a different meaning?

How one views time is major as to how much one is capable of
receiving from a Father who exists outside of the restrictions we
place on ourselves....

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 3, 2010 at 1:52pm

Raj/Dusty/Rob,

Just food for thought - the absence of time as we know it does not change the fact that there is past, present and future and I think that since God created time for us, His creation, I think it logical to think will for eternity have use of time, seasons etc... In God's eternity there remains something that happened, something that is happening and something that will happen.

Blessings

Permalink Reply by Dusty Rhodes on October 3, 2010 at 2:26pm

David,I respect your beliefs. I search for words in the Bible that surround, now and is..

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