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Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
Views: 522
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Wow! You did a lot of work on this. I am going to spend some time on it. It looks great. You must be a lot younger than I am if you are thinking of being around in 2048.
Getting there a lot sooner -
Roy
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Kneeling,
I would like to continue with your presentation even though what I am going to write may not be what you intended to convey. However, it is clear (your presentation is very good) that part of the discourse of Jesus has already been fulfilled and part has not. Let me ask a question: is it possible that the Kingdom is partly here and partly not? Jesus spoke of a soon coming Kingdom. That has been fulfilled. That Kingdom is here. Jesus told the Pharisees in approximately AD 30 that their generation was going to be held responsible for all the blood of the prophets that had been shed from the beginning of the world (any creationists out there - here is another instance where Jesus identifies the beginning of the world not billions of years into it - Jesus was a six-day person) beginning with Abel to Zechariah. Sure enough, like clockwork, forty years later, that generation was held liable for the nation of Israel's actions in the killing of the prophets, of which we know would also include the Messiah Himself. Over one million people were killed, the rest scattered, the city and Temple destroyed, and temple worship as the Jews had known would never again be restored. That era was finished, over, kaput. God wiped that system off the face of the earth. There would never again be another lamb sacrificed on that Temple mount. Can you imagine how much of an affront those sacrifices were to the Godhead? Well, it would never happen again. That was the absolute end to that era.
I believe that something else happened with that coming of the Lord to completely fulfill His judgment. The Jerusalem Church had an enormous influence on the Gentile Church. God was breaking that wall and we see it completely disappearing. The Jerusalem Church was also gone. Paul had been going through the world preaching the Gospel of grace. Several Jews were really struggling with the Gospel of grace, I believe including Peter and James. There was a huge controversy which required Paul to travel to Jerusalem to settle the controversy. Even though the disciples agreed not to bring the Gentile church under most of the Law, they still seemed to have to give a little in the letter they circulated to the Jews. Paul would later refute every point of that letter. Note:
Ac 15:19-21
19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." NIV
I really don't believe this was God's letter. (I know there will be plenty out there that would argue that point with me). Paul would later say concerning the meeting saying that the only thing that was required was to remember the poor. But notice, James is putting his seal of approval on continued Sabbath worship which Jesus was clearly wanting to move away from. Also note what he said, "Moses has been preached in every city, etc." God was finished with this era. The message of Moses was to be replaced with the message of the Kingdom. The beloved Jerusalem church just couldn't get set free from that message. The new Kingdom message goes something like this:
Mt 5:3-10
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
NIV
Jesus had much to say about this new Kingdom. That Kingdom is here now. He did need to come and completely overthrow the old, but the New is here. It operates under a completely new system. You dispensationalists are saying that this new covenant is yet to come but I say is already here. I operate according to the principles of the new; not the old. The old no longer is in effect. Note:
Heb 8:13
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete ; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. NIV
"...and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Paul's writing predates the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. Not only does the new make the old obsolete, it would soon disappear. God did not want the Law read to the people of the New on the Sabbath. (O boy, am I going to get into trouble. I can just hear it: all Scripture is given for inspiration. ) I do not understand why people of the New want to bring back the Old. Anyway, something very critical happened in AD 70. The Old was gone, the New was completely released. The Kingdom of Heaven was here. Now, the prophecies of Christ concerning this Kingdom would be completely fulfilled.
Living under the New,
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Dusty Rhodes on
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Roy, I don't know if this will make you feel any better but I agree with what you have brought
forward. When I was reading what you put down on paper it felt like I had written it. Here is where I'm
at. Jesus made captivity captive! He defeated the father of lies with His Father's truth. When He said, "It
is finished"! He didn't mean partially finished! The Book of Hebrews is so Kingdom it's simply wonderful.
Faith imputed to Righteousness. The keys to the Kingdom are in Hebrews. Faith, Hope....Titus really
did a # on Jerusalem. I can't believe that Jewish people are taking national Israel back and are drooling to
rebuild, "The Temple", and re-start sacrifices. Zionist Evangelicals like John Hagee think Armeggedon is physical like a national Israel! What you are making mention of is spiritual! This battle isn't of the flesh, it's principallities, dominions, etc. This is about people of Faith. Remants and sojourners who are focused on a place not built by human hands. Sooooo....Jesus crucified, resurrected. God's will be done. Death
defeated. " Oh, death, where is thy sting"? I kind of hurried through this and I hope I have confused no one but I was and am so happy to see someone who is willing to take a chance and jump into the deep water. If we are wrong, so what? Looking forward to more of your postings.............aloha
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Kneeling,
Do you agree with the post? It is interesting but at this point, I don't agree with it. I think it is way off. Let me give some of the NT verses found in Matthew concerning the Kingdom of Heaven:
Matt 4:17 (NOW)
17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." NIV
Matt 5:3-10 (NOW)
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven .
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven NIV
Matt 11:12-15 (NOW in the present)
12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 He who has ears, let him hear. NIV
Matt 13:11-12 (NOW in the present)
11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. NIV
Matt 13:24 (NOW in the present)
24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. NIV
Matt 13:31-32 (NOW in the present)
31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. NIV
Matt 13:33 (NOW in the present)
33 He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough." NIV
Matt 13:44 (NOW in the present)
44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field. NIV
Matt 13:45-50 (NOW in the present)
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
47 "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
NIV
Matt 16:18-19 (NOW in the present)
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven ; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." NIV
Matt 18:1-4 (NOW in the present)
18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven ?"
2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven . 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven . NIV
Matt 18:23-24
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
NIV
Matt 19:14-15 (NOW in the present)
14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. NIV
Matt 19:23-24 (NOW in the present)
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven . 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." NIV
Matt 20:1-2 (NOW in the present)
20:1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. NIV
Matt 22:1-2 (NOW in the present)
2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. NIV
Matt 23:13 (NOW in the present)
13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. NIV
Matt 25:1 (NOW in the present)
At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. NIV
While I have heard this teaching all my life, I guess I would have to say I do not agree that the Kingdom of Heaven is referring to a future physical Kingdom. The principles of the Kingdom is for today. The development of the Kingdom as Jesus taught us is happening today. The small mustard seed growing into a large tree is today.
Notice this verse:
Luke 16:16
16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. NIV
I have to believe the two terms are interchangeable. The man writing the above exchange is giving all the reasons for making the two terms different even to the point of saying, "These unbelieving scholars are confused and blind. " I guess I just don't see any use of saying things like that. I think those kind of presuppositions are a waste of time and therefore I tend to discount everything he has to say. However, I do know we are not to throw out the baby with the bath water. I just think it is too big of a stretch for this man and other dispensationalists to say the Kingdom of Heaven refers to the OT promised physical Kingdom and the Kingdom of God refers to a spiritual Kingdom. I see them being used interchangeably.
Let me give you another one of his quotes:
"The Kingdom of Heaven is primarily for Israel. (Israel will be the dominant nation in the Kingdom of Heaven.) This KINGDOM in the Bible is always a visible, physical (or natural), Davidic, one thousand year kingdom on this Earth. In contrast, the Kingdom of God is a KINGDOM, which is first inward, or moral (in the heart!), and is invisible (or supernatural), and is currently present in the age we live in, which is the Church age. Jesus Christ revealed that: “The kingdom of God is within you.” It is inward and spiritual!"
So, does this mean that all those references above I gave concerning the Kingdom of Heaven are not for us today but for a future Kingdom? Obviously, that is not the case. The Kingdom of Heaven is here, now. You and I are operating according to those principles. This is the realm of our present existence. This man is going out on a ledge which can be easily toppled.
Does this mean, then, that there is not a futuristic physical Kingdom? No, if I believed that I would no longer be a premillennialist and I am certainly one of those. I Just believe that like David was presenting to us, that New Covenant (which I believe is the covenant in force under this Kingdom) is for us today. That position separates us somewhat from the traditional dispensational view.
In the Kingdom,
Roy
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David, I believe " just stick with the Bible", is everyones best shot for Divine personal understanding.
The Bible is a Liviing Word and has a revelatory quality to it that allows God to shape us through His Word.
Many people believe there are two seperate dispensations. One for Jews and another for Christian Gentiles.
So do we believe what the Bible says or do we believe what man says? A covenant is a contract or an agreement
When one reads Matt 23;1-39. Every covenant made with national Israel was termaninated by the Son of God, Jesus.
A new covenant with a dispensation comes into being. This particular covenant was prophesied all through the Old
Testement. The new covenant isn't for so-called Christian Gentiles either. This is about remnant. This is about a spiritual line and lion of Judah. Abraham our father of faith. That Faith or belief in Him who He sent is imputed to Righteousness. Not ours but His. Jesus.. Read the Book of Hebrews. Enjoy the Cloud of Witnesses and pay attention to Melchisedec. Close attention to Hebrews 11: 39-40. Remnant, remnant remnant all through the Bible. No one comes to the Father but through His Son. Anything else is blasphemey of the Holy Spirit, the only unpardonable sin! When one denies the existance of the Comforter, one denies God's plan, Himself and His Son, which are One but also in that denial which is done with intent, not ignorance, one cuts off the intercessor, the teacher and the hope that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him! I'm new here. If anyone has any questions I would love the oppurtunity to answer or point you to scripture.
Aloha
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Dusty,
Good word beloved. You will find that here in this community you have a bunch of folks who love to have first and foremost the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth. We examine all things pertaining to life and Godliness and we want primarly the enlightenment from above.
It is god to have you here.
Blessings bro.
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Amen, Dusty,
Here is a question: I know I would have to post a considerable amount of Scripture to get the gist of this statement but I am going to just post a few verses. When Paul says, "all Israel" and "all men" who is that?
Ro 11:25-32
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. NIV
Thanks.
Roy
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Good question Roy. Here is where I am with that at this moment. When
Jacob recieved his new name, " Israel", after wrestling with " The Spirit",
( I won't let go without Your Blessing ) he received his spiritual nature in it's fullness.
This is representitive for you and I. A white stone and a new name. Spiritual Israel is not national Israel.
So having " Got " this understanding it changed my perception of how to read and understand the Old
Testement. Even if one doesn't believe what I'm saying try this...........When reading any of the books
ot the Old Testement and Jacob is mentioned usually soon after Israel is mentioned. Look closely to what is being expressed and think of Jacob as the man. As soon as you see the word Israel think spirit and pay close attention to what is being said. The Bible is the Word of God and not only teaches transformation into His Son's Righteousness but does the transforming. As in Jacob's case he went through an undergoing to an overcoming. What did Jacob overcome? What are we looking for? Roy, I didn't provide confirming scripture because I wanted you to get the feel of " all Israel " and " all men ". All men is made reference to in..... Romans 9. Actually made very clear who, " all men ", are... I enjoyed thinking and writing this and hope it edifies. our Lord and His.
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Dusty,
What I am getting from you is that all Israel here does not refer to the physical Israel but spiritual Israel. It appears you are saying that it is those who overcome that are Israel as did Jacob. The reference here in Romans seems to be speaking to many of the OT prophecies. However, if Israel here refers to a spiritual Israel it would not necessarily speak to the question of would some be saved after the rapture. It would seem at that point that all that are going to be saved would be saved at that time. Is that your understanding?
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Roy, I don't believe the rapture is in the Bible. The scriptures believers have given me
to show or convince me of it's existence don't work for me. I don't care if someone believes
in the rapture theory or doesn't. I do care when someone believes in Him who He sent and also believes that
He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. This is saved. No one comes to the Father but through the Son. He loves/loved us first. He stands at the door and knocks. Not me. All I do/did was answer......When anyone does this regardless of who, where or when in time they are saved because God chooses who He chooses. Saul/Paul is an example.....
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Roy, Death is defeated.
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