How well do you know Catholic Christianity?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 8, 2010 at 10:34am

Sharon, I applaud you tenacity in defending your beliefs. It's fascinating to read your review of the liturgy. It has obviously struck a harmonious chord with your faith to participate in that way. Just reading it - I can smell the incense and hear the echoes of people responding to the rector and cantor speaking.

In my experience, I recall many who would say those confessions out loud in church, but live like the devil in public and never admit to believing those statements of faith.

I have to ask you a question: where in the Bible does it commend you to consider yourself a child of an institution? Did Jesus or the Apostles ever commend you to do this?

Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on July 8, 2010 at 2:29pm

In my experience, I recall many who would say those confessions out loud in church, but live like the devil in public and never admit to believing those statements of faith.

That is horrid!

I have to ask you a question: where in the Bible does it commend you to consider yourself a child of an institution? Did Jesus or the Apostles ever commend you to do this?

You mean why do I think of my Church as my mother? Well, the Bible does refer to the Church in the feminine as the Bride of Christ but, we often refer to our Church as our mother I think because we place such high value on motherhood. But, I think for myself, when I lost my own mother on January 31, 2010 I was very comforted and continue to be comforted thinking of the Church as my Mother.

Sharon.

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 16, 2010 at 7:32pm

Sharon, I am very sorry for your loss. This is always painful - when we lose a loved one - and I would not want to say anything that brings hurt to your mind.

However, Jesus did not call an institution to be his Bride, nor to be the "mother" of anyone. He called His believers His Bride. He wants you to be His beloved, not to be the daughter of some mediator. This illustrates what others have been trying to show you about the way that the Vatican has falsely inserted itself as a proxy between you and God.

If you will notice in 1 Timothy 2:4-6, Paul the Apostle is explaining the pure simplicity of how our faith in Jesus has granted us direct access to God. He explains God's view on salvation being a direct relationship to Himself: "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time".

I know that it can seem like a subtle distinction, but I can tell you that until I saw Jesus as my own personal savior, my direct access to God, without the vicarious relationship through any mediator, I did not actually have a relationship with Him.

Now, I see that you are a very devoted person. No one who reads your posts can deny that you have a deep heart of gratitude and faith in God. But, the Vatican has given you the idea that it is your access, your gateway to God. Nothing can be further from the truth.

You see, the whole point made by the Apostles - over and over - is that the barrier between humanity and God (a direct and personal relationship with God) has been torn down by Jesus Christ. He alone had the power to open the doors of Heaven to humanity. He alone is the gateway to Heaven. And no Apostle ever sought to insert himself as a proxy that way.

Anything that obscures our minds from personally and directly seeking Christ in a direct relationship is a curse to our souls. No Apostle ever sought worship or adoration, they deliberately and forcefully rejected any recognition that would elevate them to any degree of adoration. In fact, half of the Apostles had so humbled themselves that their accomplishments have been lost over the ages.

How is it that an institution can build itself up so much that someone as devoted as you has come to see your relationship to God dependent upon them as a child to a mother?

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 5, 2010 at 6:08pm

Sharon,

Much of what you do in your confessions, we need to do on a daily basis as well. We can never confess the Lordship of Jesus too often. For some reason, my grandparents did not want to share much about their faith. It seemed to me that their faith was more of a private matter. I appreciate you sharing so much about your church. I have learned much and really do have a better feeling about my grandparents. The confession of Jesus as Lord along with believing in your heart saves one from their sins according to Scripture. Romans 10:10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." We should all start our day with a similar confession. Concerning the Apostle's Creed, I agree. I don't know that He did descend into hell but I don't know that He didn't. I do know that somehow He conquered death. I'm struggling somewhat with the communion of the saints. I think there is only one who has standing with God and that is Jesus Himself. He is the only One who can speak on our behalf. However, I do love that confession.

I think I mentioned that I do not believe that the Roman Catholic church is the harlot. I believe that is comprised of all those that have departed from the Truth. Joining a Bible-believing, Evangelical church doesn't save you from anything. These are institutions of man. The church is in our hearts and when two or three members of that church come together, Jesus promised to be in their midst.

I am curious about what you said about there being people of God that were not Christian. Unless I am not understanding something you are saying, I would have to strongly disagree with that statement. Are you saying maybe that there is truth outside of Jesus? I do not believe there is truth outside of Jesus.

I really appreciate you sharing your faith.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 15, 2010 at 2:48am

Hello Sharon,

Check this vids out if you get a chance (they are very short) and please give me your thoughts on the context of it, if you will.


What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he has something in which to boast; but not before God. For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Comes this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his descendants, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they who are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law works wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the descendants; not to those only who are of the law, but to those also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall your descendants be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body as now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

(Rom 4:1-25)

Permalink Reply by Helen on August 27, 2010 at 9:25pm

Hi Sharon,

I am pleased to find another fellow Catholic Christian here. I also feel a bit sad with some of the things that I read around the internet, so I would like to praise you for your initiative to start this discussion.

Please visit on the link below, there might be an opportunity for you to enlighten another sister in Christ.

http://www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/why-did-the-catholic-chur...)

I might come back to answer your quiz another time, It is late and I am exhausted now... though...!

May I suggest a discussion before I go? How about starting a discussion like: Why do Protestant say Catholics worship Mary? ( I say this because I find it THE most notorious misconceived idea regarding Catholicism).

Pax Christi

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 28, 2010 at 2:19am

Hello sister Helen,

I truly enjoyed reading your post on the blog and I am happy to see you here in this discussion. If you have been born again by God's grace through faith then you are my sister in Christ. Please know that I am not into silly hateful arguing nor is it my desire to be offensive or rude. There is no need for such horrible conduct. I do enjoy discussing this type of issues not to crown a winner at the end, but to come to the unity of the Knowledge of Christ, as scripture teaches us in Eph. 4. There is only one way to God and only one truth.

Please consider the video below and give me your thoughts.

I will add this scripture to go with the video here:

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.

The dead know nothing of what goes on here on earth (under the sun).


Blessings

Permalink Reply by Helen on August 28, 2010 at 2:30pm

Hi David,

First of all, many thanks for your suggestion about this forum. I am really enjoying it! Also, I appreciate that you have a genuine attitude of understanding and respect, which I admire and commend you for.

Now to your question:

In order to address to this topic I have to first state that the RCC, in her teachings, proclaims that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and that this body is formed both by the souls of the saints departed, as well as by the faithful and Saints in the temporal world (living people). The RCC teaches also that within this Mystical Body of Christ there is what is called the Communion of the Saints, both on earth and in heaven. This is stated in the last bit of our CREED:

[…] We believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the Communion of the Saints and LIFE EVERLASTING.

We believe that the Saints (the departed, not the living ones) who are also part of the Mystical Body of the Church have attained EVERLASTING LIFE! Therefore, they are NOT dead. Agreed?

Thus, Catholics, just as all other Christians, DO NOT pray to ‘dead’ people. Because when the Scriptures talks about being dead, it refers to those who have NOT entered Heaven, or have NOT gained Eternal Life.

Here is what the Catechism of the RCC says about the Communion of the Saints:

947 “Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others…. We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head…. Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments.”478 “As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund.”479

Why do we believe this? Because Saint Paul explained that the body is corruptible when it is buried, but it will be incorruptible when raised.

“It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:43-44).

With this said, I would like to move to a second, but equally important point, that concerns the character of our prayers or petitions. Let us clarify that the word prayer comes from a Latin route that means “ to ask”.

The RCC forbids ANY sort of Adoration or Prayer of Praise that is not addressed to GOD alone. Obviously, since we believe in the Holy Trinity, prayers of Adoration can also be addressed to the three persons of the Holy Trinity.

However, when praying to Saints, and this includes Mary, we can ONLY address intercessory prayers, NEVER prayers of Adoration (worship)!

Therfore, we “ask” the Saints, since we know they are in Heaven and have already attained a much higher spiritual growth than we have, to take our petitions to the Lord. This is the same as we do when we pray for a friend who is sick or some-one who asks for our prayers. (There quite a few examples of intercessory appeals in the Gospel, such as (Jn 2:1-11) and in the OT with Moses being the intercessor for the Israelite)

Now let me provide some Scripture support to this teaching of the RCC:

With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel[...] (Eph 6:18-19).

He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:27)

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason.

The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers.

In the letter of James (James 5:16), which your Bible does not include, we read: How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

In the OT we see these examples of intercession of Heavenly being on behalf of the living:

“But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who standeth for the children of thy people: and a time shall come, such as never was from the time that nations began, even until that time. And at that time shall thy people be saved, every one that shall be found written in the book.” -Daniel 12:1

“Behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me.”-Daniel 10:13

I hope this will help you to understand why we ask the Saints to pray for us. Because we think the prayers of the righteous are strong and full of power and because they are willing to cooperate for our salvation.

Cheers,
Helen

Permalink Reply by Helen on September 2, 2010 at 5:27am

Dear Roy,

Thank you for your comments. It’s nice to see you here.

Your questions are very pertinent and I am really glad you’ve asked them. I will try to answer to you as best as I can.

Can you belong to the Catholic Church and still maintain some personal beliefs?

I am not sure what you mean by personal beliefs, but if you refer to anything concerning morals and faith, then I‘d say we are called to comply with what the Church teaches. Then, I we have to remember that the Authority of the Church comes from the Scriptures and the Apostolic Tradition which is not made-up stuff, but was given to the Apostles by Christ.

You see, the RCC has what is called Canon Law, which is the body of laws and regulations made by or adopted by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Christian organization and its members. It is the internal ecclesiastical law governing the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Canon Law is the oldest functioning legal system in the western world and is positive ecclesiastical laws, based upon either immutable divine and natural law, or changeable circumstantial and merely positive law, derive formal authority and promulgation from the pope, who as Supreme Pontiff possesses the totality of legislative, executive, and judicial power in his person. The actual subject material of the canons is not just doctrinal or moral in nature, but indeed all-encompassing of the human condition.

So, if a person’s belief opposes these Catholic ‘guide-lines’, does it mean that they cannot be Catholics? No, they can still be Catholics, but they would be defying the authority of the Church, especially if it concerns the faith, but also regarding moral. As you mentioned yourself, some-one who supports pro-choice and is a Catholic is bad sin. They may even call themselves Catholics and unworthily receive holy Eucharist, and so on… But we are ultimately responsible for our actions, and if some one is reproached by a church authority, say a priest, and still ignore their mistakes, than I guess they will respond to God for their defiance and disobedience. I assume that when some one is excommunicated, which is extremely rarely or almost never, that happens because they are disobedient in a way that threatens other members of the Church fulfilment of their faith as Christians and members of the RCC, say by being an apostate….

I, personally, believe in being obedient and following what the church teaches, even in issues such as contraception, women priesthood, etc.

2- Or, do your beliefs have to pretty much measure up with the church. If you differ, are you still welcomed?

Yes, Catholics are called to follow the Church, not to disobey what she teaches. Having in mind that the Catholic & Apostolic Church has the authority given to the Apostles by Christ and her teachings are true and protect by the Holy Spirit. However, this is not what all Catholics do. For instance, many women use the pill and still go to Church and are Catholics.

3- It is obvious that you can either be pro-choice or pro-life and still be catholic.

That’s right, by defiance of the what the Church teaches, not with her approval. As I said, people have their free-will, as always in life, I guess….Someone can chose to do good or evil and still say they are Christians.

Could a Calvinist be a Catholic?

No, that is not possible because Calvin does not accept all the doctrines of the RCC.

Could a person who believed the canonized Bible was the supreme authority still be Catholic?

The Catholic Church, compiled the Bible and as far as Catholics for Roman Catholics, our Bible is the only complete Bible. Anything different to that has been modified by the Reformists and don’t really contain the entirety of the Word.

The Church authority is Scriptural and given to her by God. I promise you that every doctrine in the Catholic Church is Scripture based. What Sole Scripture Christians do not accept is the RCC ‘interpretation’. But that is a long discussion, which we will never agree on…

Finally, since you mentioned authority. I thought you would be interested in reading this:

http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp

Roy, have you ever read any Catholic Apologetics? There is a book called Fundamentalism X Catholicism which I really recommend. It might change the way you see the RCC. I really think that it could clarify many misconceptions most protestant have about our Church.

Thanks again for your comments.
Helen

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 2, 2010 at 6:18am

Helen,

Since either you or Sharon have stated that the Catholics do not consider that one has to belong to the RCC in order to be saved, much of my opposition to the church was removed. Am I still correct in this assumption that the RCC now acknowledges that salvation is through Christ and through Him alone? Personally, I would consider anything less than this a cult. If the RCC accepts salvation by grace through faith in Jesus for all and whoever believes, much of my ammunition has been removed. I must admit that I would very much be surprised to learn that they always have believed that.

I did go to your website for an answer to my question. However, I must admit that the answer seemed to put my salvation into question since I don't think I qualify for their exceptions. Here is their reply to the question of salvation outside of the church:

Salvation outside the Church


The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

Helen, you must admit that an answer like the one above would be very scary to a non Catholic. For instance, I don't accept the RCC teaching from the following reference:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

43And making a gathering, he twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

44(For if he had not hoped that the that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45And because he considered that the who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

Helen, I don't think you want to say I am unsaved but I believe your church is calling me unsaved simply because I don't accept all the teachings they give. Please note what they say: However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine).

I absolutely do not believe the verse in 2Maccabees is in agreement with the rest of Scripture. If I leave this world after committing a sin, I still believe I would go directly to be with Him. I do not believe it is necessary for me to overcome all my sin to be saved. However, neither do I believe that I need anyone other than Jesus Himself making intercession for me.

I believe the church's teaching here on salvation and what happens to a person after death are erroneous. However, I don't discount your salvation because I believe you have faith in Jesus Christ. However, I do believe that if you are in absolute agreement with the teachings of the RCC, you have to discount my salvation or at least wonder about it.

Am I wrong in assuming this? Please explain.

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 2, 2010 at 6:32am

Helen,

You were right about a pro-choice Catholic. However, because of these sins, am I correct to think that it would take quite a bit to get them out of purgatory for this great sin (and I do believe that is a great sin)?

Roy

Permalink Reply by Helen on September 3, 2010 at 3:02pm

Hi Roy,
I will reply to you soon. Just didnt want you to think that I am ignoring you....

Cheers,
Helen

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