All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Family,
It is obvious that some among us will believe that salvation can be lost, while others will believe that God will finish what He started in us by keeping us through correction, love and even by taking our physical life.
This type of discussions is not easy to engage in because we are dealing with the most important subject in our lives, God. I will say this much. We are family AND I will NEVER STOP TALKING AND LOVING EVERYONE HERE TO THE BEST OF MY GOD GIVEN ABILITY. i WILL NEVER STOP PRAYING FOR MY FAMILY IN CHRIST AND LONGING TO ONE DAY MEET EVERYONE OF YOU HERE OR IN HEAVEN.
For now let us love one another above all else.
To be completely honest with you family I don't think is a big deal if someone wants to believe they can lose their salvation or that God will not intrude in our free will. I do enjoy these discussions even when they get a little heated, because I am not only getting to know You a bit more, but also learning how to above all else love one another. I am also learning how to interact better (I think and hope haha ) in and through this wonderful blessed site and medium. AAG - All about God and not about us.
I am sure if I was to run into any of you, we would care less that we do not agree in some SECONDARY ISSUES. We would be too JOYFUL to actually meet I am sure, to allow 10 % of our differences in secondary doctrines to over shadow our joy OR DIVIDE US. I am sure we agree on 90 % of what we believe in secondary doctrines. And we do agree 100% on the primary ones. So is all good family. Let's Take a chill pill and relax (my chill pill is the word). YOU ARE AND WILL FOR ETERNITY BE MY FAMILY.
This is what I see - A group of redeemed folks who love the Lord. We love His word and we want to make sure we understand His precious, life giving word correctly, in order to serve Him in a way that is pleasing to Him. We also want to be FREE and we know that only the truth sets us Free.
For all the silent readers I will say the following. We wish you would join us and share your questions, opinions and needs with us. No one here is looking to hurt anyone. This is not about wining arguments, but rightly dividing the word of God. We also get the added bonus of learning how to communicate through this means. Is not always easy or successfully done as much as we try, because of the diversity of beliefs among us (It should not be so), but unless we get in here, we won’t learn how to do it in a way pleasing to our Lord. The word states that we should ALL COME TO THE UNITY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST. That is what we have endeavor to do here. We are Christians and we have no intentions on being offensive, but simply have a zeal for edifying one another. I say all that to say that if anyone out there is intimidated by our discussions please do not be. No need to be. As servants of Christ the Spirit leads us to deal with each individual member in love and I for one long to be bless by others’ experiences and wisdom. Hopefully we can also bless you.
I know that if Amanda, Robert or anyone else here was to run into me they would not say. ohhhh is you the guy who thinks we cannot lose salvation hahaha I know they would rejoice as I would, because we love God and His people. So please family, please do not think we love to fight hahaha we don't. We enjoy learning and growing in His grace and wisdom.
That is all that has happened here. Some will revise their understanding of scripture, some will continue to believe as they have, but one thing is for sure - WE WILL ALL CONTINUE TO LOVE.
I love and respect all of you. If I can ever do anything for any of you, it would be my privilege.
I will go over this discussion and try to learn where I could have been more loving and also look at the verses used by my beloved family to support that we can lose our salvation and once again I will ask my Lord to guide me to all truth. I beseech you do the same. Press on Christian soldiers. Thank you for engaging and bearing with this knuckle head.
One last thing family: KEEP A TEACHABLE ATTITUDE. A TEACHABLE ATTITUDE IS BEAUTIFUL TO THE LORD.
Be blessed and a blessing family. -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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I like this reply by forgiven sinner:
David, Well, what in tarnation have we been debating then? I have no arguement with that. I thought you were saying those who deliberately sin.....continue in Salvation. Yes, I agree those who continue in faith, prayer and turning to God cannot lose salvation. But those who come to the Lord and then reject Him are certainly not saved.
I think forgiven must be a southerner. If he were from Texas or something he might have said, "What in thundering blazes." These are more tamed down versions of what many Americans are beginning to say. The discussions are very good as in them we find we have more in common than not. I noticed several that thought the idea that those who believed that one cannot lost their salvation believed that someone could go through the motions of religious exercises and then continue a life of sin and still be saved. I think that idea has been put to rest. There are some who hold to that idea but we are not of them. That is a religious doctrine that some hold to and is not from God. However, there are some (I am one) that believe that once someone really becomes born again into His family, do not lose that position. However, there will be evidence of that experience. Their lives will be changed, transformed into His image. They won't be perfect but will follow after Him. There actually could be those that believe a religious doctrine that one cannot lost their salvation that have really never even been saved. Salvation changes people. They will never be the same once they experience that crisis moment in their life.
Pastor Dave, you are a good teacher. We are all growing in His grace because of this.
Roy -
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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on
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Hello Michelle ,I,ve read a few of the responses hear and some are fairly close to what I believe ,so I'll try to explain my ideas.I believe that when we are on our journey ,God keeps a very close eye on us .He can tell if we are truly seeking Him or not ,as we read the word and do our own research to find the Truth, and seeking the Truth doesnt just need to be reading the bible ,we can find much of His truths in looking at the things He has created ,plants animals even trying to comprehend out how marvellous a work has gone into our own eyes to be able to see these things,as we do.As we go along on our journey ,if we are still being honest with ourselves ,we will notice that we start changing a bit ,cause when you start finding out a little bit of the Truth you start wanting more of it so you seek deeper and you find yourself doing things that the bible says, not because you think its a requirement ,but because pleasing Him is something you just wanna do to say thank you ,you want to please Him because He pleases you ,remember God still knows exactly what is in your heart and its not the works your doing but the relationship that you have built up in your seeking that He is looking at ,by this stage you will have gotten to know a fair bit about His Son Jesus and accepted Him into your life,accepted that He lived and died for you.This combined with the other things you have achieved in your journey ,repentance ,trying your best to obey the commandments ,and all these other things you are doing to try and show your love for Him ,there will come a time when He will say this child has been seeking the Truth with all of his or her, heart ,mind and soul ,they have put aside the things of this world as best they can just to please Me,by doing all this they have finally found the Truth ,for this I am well pleased,it is not by their works that I will give them my grace but by the way they have shown their love for me.So when God gives you the key to His kingdom ,He gives it to you because He knows the love that is in your heart for Him is so strong that you arent going to give it away for anything.When He saves you by His grace you become 100% christian and you are His forever ,even though the devil may put stumbling blocks in your way here and there still,God wont let him test you any more than you can bare,so if we do stumble we can allways get back up again ,and each time after, our walk will get us to being that little bit closer to being the way He wanted us to be in the first place.When God gives you the key to His kingdom ,you start living in His kingdom as soon as you enter the gates ,in this life ,here and now if that be the case ,and you can rest assured that you will be in His kingdom forever,....Amen.....this is what I believe for now anyway ,someone might just say something that will blow me straight out of the water,and then i 'll just have to reevaluate my thinking ,its good to have an open heart,...Blessings from Downunder, Andrew.
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Since this discussion has gone into the will of man. Letus examine the will of God and the will of man then. :)
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Pastor Dave, This was my response on your other forum:
Ouch! Sounds to me like we desperately need some help. We are unable on our own to do anything to gain that position so promised to us by God to all that believe. We are totally dependent upon Him for life, holiness, righteousness and all that required of man by God. Only through Christ can we be redeemed from this desperate position we find ourselves in. Only through Christ can we be restored to God for life and that life eternal. Let us bow our heads to Him in gratefulness and praise for the glory He has bestowed upon us by His grace.
This message preached some 150 years ago is still as relevant to us today as it was the day it was preached. Man has not improved. He still desperately needs a Savior to do for Him what he cannot do for himself.
O Glory be to our Lord and Savior who has redeemed us from the terrible despotism. We consider ourselves capable of turning from our despotism. Yet, you are controlled by that which is corrupt - a rule of complete anarchy. I am amazed by those who believe that have enough goodness in them to turn to Christ.
Praise God for His wonderful grace.
Thank you Pastor Dave for your hard work. I needed this this morning. I am looking forward to the remaining two segments of the sermon.
Totally grateful,
Roy -
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Praise God Pastor Roy,
If you liked those two, you are really going to enjoy these two. My brother leave it to Spurgeon to colorfully, poetically and by the power of the Holy Spirit preach not with eloquent words, but with power.
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What a blessed hope! He is still declaring the wonders of our Lord. The angels fold their wings when the children of God begin to bring praise to our God.
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My computer got cut off before I could finish my message. I don't know how it posted. However, I think you get the message. When I hear a man like Spurgeon preach, the praises come pouring forth. I give no praise to any man or to myself. The praise goes to Christ and Him alone. But this man had a way of taking His listeners to the very throne of grace. He does not allow man to give praise to himself. All praise goes to God. It was a gift that just keeps on giving. I have a collection of his sermons but this was not one of them. I got one of the books down today, dusted it off, and began to read it again. Praise the Lord.
Roy -
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Those in Christ don't want to sin but sometimes it happens. God is not put to shame when we sin neither is He surprised. I don't think He is probably quite as concerned as you are. We should not sin. We are not to be casual concerning our sin. The problem I see with some is that they have the idea that God is upset with them when they fail. It saddens me that we don't give Him enough praise for the forgiveness in Him that we have received. He that says He has quit sinning is a liar. The statement alone creates a lie. The statement is generated by pride.
So grateful for His forgiveness,
Roy -
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Mischelle,
We do become very upset with ourselves when we sin. We want so desperately to be pleasing to our God. What pleases God is believing on His Son and following Him. He is pleased with you simply because you believe in Him. You are one of His children and He finds joy in you just the way you are. Some of us are pretty much of a mess. Actually, all of us are. When you see that super spiritual person and it seems he is better at overcoming sin than you, don't believe it. That person is struggling just like you. Jesus took a very serious beating before He died. He did that for you. He did that so that your sin might be forgiven you over and over and over again. He loves you so much that He did not want your fallen nature to come between you and Him. When you are given opportunity, worship Him for what He has done. Worship Him for His character. Worship Him for His great plan which includes you. What do you do when you have had a rough day or week and seem like all you've gotten done is fallen? That is the time when you worship Him even more for what He has done.
Sin is a death sentence to all who do not believe. However, for those who do believe, Jesus died for that sin. It is not a slap in His face to go to Him constantly for forgiveness (take it from a pro); He takes joy in forgiving you. He suffered much to get to do that. He gets joy in doing that. The only person getting slapped is Satan.
God does discipline those He loves. However, that discipline is not the gift of suffering. Some of the worse sinners I know have great health. But know this: He will never put on us more that we can bear. He will allow things in our lives that bring us closer to Him.
We are not to take sin lightly. However, neither should we be so down on ourselves for our sin that we cannot get our heads up where they should be. We should be looking towards heaven and giving Him praise for doing everything necessary to assure us His blessing and finally heaven. He rejoices in you. You are that lost sheep. You are that hidden treasure. You are that pearl of great price. Read about that pearl and then realize He is talking about you.
Mt 13:45-46
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. KJV
Of course, I like so many others used to think that pearl was Him. Then, I began to realize that I couldn't be the one seeking Him, He was seeking me. I had nothing to sell anyway. The Person that purchased the pearl had something of value to sell to get it. I had no way of buying anything. No, you are that pearl of great price and it did cost Him dearly. He sold all He had to get you. Quit beating yourself up. If you were worth Him coming down from Glory and giving all to get you, quit giving Satan the pleasure of him thinking he still has you. The battle for you is over and Jesus won. You belong to Him. You are the prize. You are why He came, fought and won.
He will perform in you a glorious work until that work is done and then He will take you home with Him. Sometimes the work is a little rough but I say enjoy the ride. When He is finished with you, you won't be around this place anymore anyway.
I teach in a Christian school. I had a young fifteen year old beautiful girl in my class. She loved the Lord with her whole heart. In English class she had written a paper on how she desired to go to heaven and play hide-and-seek with Jesus (probably an unusual paper but that is what she wrote about.) She was as close to Jesus as anyone I had known even at her young age. One day she was riding a four-wheeler with some friends and was killed. Everyone was very sad but we all had a sense as to why the Lord took her. She was ready.
Mischelle, God is not upset with you. He is thrilled with you. Trust in Him to finish the work He has started in you. You are His workmanship. You are the clay He is molding to become like Him. When He looks at you it is like He is looking in a mirror you are already beginning to resemble Him so much. He does hate sin but He doesn't hate you. He hates sin for what it does to you. You are His beloved. You hate sin almost as much as He does. It is time to stop beating up on yourself and begin giving Him praise for what He has already done in you. It is easy to forget about all that He has already done. All we can sometimes see is how much He has left to do in us. Trust Him for that and enjoy His presence even now. He will never leave you. He will be right there with you to the very end and then take you home with Him. That's His plan and no one will be able to stop Him from accomplishing this. He is on a mission and you are part of that mission. Enjoy His work in you.
In Christ,
Roy -
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