WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 11, 2010 at 5:55pm

Carla,

Boy, I can sure think of some ism's we need to get rid of. Let's see, atheism, communism, socialism, capitalism (oops, well maybe not that one), uh unitarianism, pantheism, hedonism, humanism, empiricism, and boy we could really go on. There are a few good ones like monotheism, modalism, absolutism, etc. I'm sure that people here can come up with plenty of good examples. Whoops, I fell asleep. Gotta go to prayer meeting. I bet there are some more good and bad ones.

Good job!

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 12, 2010 at 4:41am

Carla,

I know how hard this issue seems. I am going to give a view that might help some. We can see throughout Romans that Paul uses illustrations to help us understand what God is doing. I understand the objections to the position of Calvinism. The objection is always to do with the fair issue. I cannot tell you or explain to you why God chooses some and not others yet we clearly see part of His purpose is in election. He reserves the right to choose. There is no question from Scripture that God chooses. The election of Jacob over Esau is given as an illustration of His purpose in election. He lets us know that election is part of His plan. Why does He give us this information and then not go into great detail as to how He chooses. Perhaps the greatest objection people have to the doctrine is they are just so dumbfounded that He chose them. MOST ARE ALL RELIGIOUS IN NATURE. We feel we must do something to deserve this election.

As I read David's posts I am noticing that he is not giving us the reason why God chose you or me. Why? The reason is not given. What He does tell us is that it has nothing to do with anything we have done or will do. What I see in Scripture is that God does tell us He reserves to Himself this right and that He has already done this. This becomes so scary to some. Their religious nature works so hard to deserve or earn this election. I'm telling you I have been there and done that.

My objection to working to earn or deserve this has to do with the issue of rest which God has gone through great labor to get us to understand. Surely there are some souls out there who need rest. Jesus said to those of His:
Mt 11:28-30

28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest . 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." NIV

Are you getting this? You will find rest for your souls. This is the Jesus we must present to our world. He wants us to find rest in our souls. It was not until I realized that He had already done everything for me, even the choosing, that I found this rest. I know I belong to Him. One of the most wonderful chapters is John chapter 10.

The chapter begins with His parable of the Good Shepherd. What I would like to point out is the concept of the shepherd and the sheep in a pen. He gives a picture of many sheep in a pen. Someone may come into the pen to attempt to steal the sheep but the sheep will not follow the stranger. The Shepherd enters through the gate and His sheep know His voice. He calls unto His own. Those who belong to Him follow Him. They know His voice. They know He is the shepherd of their souls. We are those sheep. Jesus is that Shepherd. We belong to Him.

Jn 10:3-6 He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." NIV

Jesus goes on to say:

Jn 10:14-18 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." NIV

Jesus says, "I know my sheep and my sheep know me..." The knowing is as certain as His knowing the Father and the Father knowing Him. I can't tell you exactly how but His sheep will know Him as He knows them. He goes on:

Jn 10:27-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." NIV

The Jews wanted to kill Him for these words and other words like this. Jesus had also said earlier:

Jn 6:35-40 35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. NIV

This is what gave me rest. Jesus let me know that I belonged to Him and that it was His job to get me home. That day I put my trust in Him and have been trusting Him ever since. You do have an enemy. He makes that clear. He will try to steal this truth from you. He will scream at you declaring that Jesus is going to get you or even get rid of you because of some failure or something. Nonsense! I tell you he is a liar. Jesus is not going to leave you, or is He going to get rid of you. His work is to get you home. He will absolutely not fail you. This work is not up to you; it is up to Him. Your salvation is not your responsibility; it is His. What do you do? When you hear His voice, you begin to follow Him. It's absolutely that simple. There is nothing complicated about it. Why does everyone come and complain about it being complicated. It is so simple. He has come to get His sheep. He know His sheep and His sheep know Him. They follow Him because they know His voice. Don't get onto me for making it complicated. I don't know how it could be any simpler than that.

Just follow Him. Put your trust in Him for your salvation. Rest in Him. Once you find this rest you can begin to do all He has purposed for you to do.

There you go! Keep it simple. Quit trying to complicate it by you trying to figure out how His sheep know Him or how He knows who His sheep are. That is not information He has given us. But, don't ever say Calvinism is complicated. It is the simplest of all. All Calvinism does is get us to see that it is all of Him and none of us. It seeks to restore us to the pure simple truth of John 10.

If you must, continue to work on your salvation. Mine is done. Hallelujah.

It is done!
Roy

Wow! Only His sheep can receive those words. Others will run from them. His Father has given Him these sheep. They belong to Him and they will follow Him when He calls them. Those who don't belong to Him will just stay in the pen.
As I read through Romans and other parts of the New Covenant, especially John 10, I see God is speaking to the elect. He definitely gives us the responsibility to pray for and preach to the lost. All the while we have no idea who will come and who will not.

Permalink Reply by Carla on August 12, 2010 at 7:51am

Hi Brother Roy,

You said this....Perhaps the greatest objection people have to the doctrine is they are just so dumbfounded that He chose them. MOST ARE ALL RELIGIOUS IN NATURE. We feel we must do something to deserve this election.

This is personaly not my objection.... I know that I am depraved and there is nothing I can do to earn my Salvation. I know that it is by God's Grace that I am saved through faith....I am saved because I have come to Jesus, and I trust in Him totally to bring me home.
My misunderstanding in this (not necessarily an objection because I don't know enough about it) is....If Jesus had to die to save us, and in scripture it clearly says that HE desires for ALL to be saved, He died for the world.. Why do people try to make it into something else? It's plain to me that Jesus died for ALL WHO WOULD COME TO HIM!

There are verses such as in Romans 9 and in Gen 25 which show clearly that God chooses Nations over other Nations for certain things....but even in those Nations...if anyone comes to HIm(within those nations) ..Jesus Our Lord and Savior.... Even though they are part of the Nation that has NOT been chosen ....they will be saved! THE WHOLE WORLD CAN COME TO HIM! It's just that most don't.

I am concerned that there are people on this site who are seeking.... and this predestination thing would be so discouraging to them, because they may give up seeking the Lord, believeing the lies of the enemy that Jesus has not chosen them... Jesus chooses all....BUT, will we choose Him?

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling...but this does NOT MEAN that our works save us... Our works are proof in our life that the Holy Spirit is getting His way with us...This prooves that Jesus is Lord of our lives....BUT in NO WAY am I suggesting a 'works salvation'. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH....nothing of ourselves so that no man may boast.. Doesn't this apply to ALL PEOPLE who come to Jesus?

Amen? Blessings, Carla

Blessings to you brother.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 12, 2010 at 9:16am

Carla,

The last think I would want to do is offend one person seeking to come to Christ. I am willing to stop discussing this subject. I am very concerned about that person, who might be in a similar position I was in before I came to understand that Jesus had saved me by His grace. This understanding literally set me free from bondage. I believe there are those on this site that are under bondage like I was. I can see it in their writing. Maybe I should just allow the Holy Spirit to lead them. However, I have seen many over the years come to this truth and find peace and rest within it.

Do we have an obligation to those who are trying to work their way to be pleasing unto Him when we know they are already pleasing unto Him? However, I am willing to not discuss this subject on this site if that is the wishes of the leader. I do sometimes get very bold and offend others by this freedom. I must ask forgiveness for that. We are never to use the exercise of our freedom to offend others. I am in total agreement with you there.

God bless you. You guys have a tough job. You have a great responsibility. I have been told several times before to keep my ideas to myself. However, to me this is truth. I can never praise my Lord enough for saving me from my sins. I do believe He did it all from start to finish. For that belief, I do get into trouble sometimes. You do have to admit that most of the church believes we have to shoulder much of the responsibility in this thing. However, I think He did it all and I give Him all my praise without reservation. I hold no praise for myself. When I stand before God I will have just one thing to say and that one thing is Jesus. I have nothing more to say. His Name is enough. I am confident in my salvation not because of anything at all to do with myself. My complete confidence is in Him. I believe He came to get me and I am confident that He will get the job done in spite of me and not because of anything in me.

I am not blind. I see the problems people are having and sometimes I want to just shut up. I don't want to talk about working out my salvation unless we are going to give all the credit to Jesus. The very thought of taking one iota of the credit causes me to tremble. I fear the thought of breaking this wonderful rest I am in.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on August 12, 2010 at 9:46am

Amen Roy.. I truly know what you speak of.

Freedom in Christ is a wonderful thing. My desire is for all to have it as well.

I believe the Lord wants each of us to live in this freedom..nothing of ourselves..all of Him...but at the same time..our obedience and surrender plays a huge part in this.

Mic 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

psalm 23 is on my heart...

Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I [fn] shall not want.


Psa 23:2 He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside [fn] quiet waters.


Psa 23:3 He restores my soul; He guides me in the [fn] paths of righteousness For His name's sake.


Psa 23:4 Even though I walk through the [fn] valley of the shadow of death, I fear no [fn] evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.


Psa 23:5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You [fn] have anointed my head with oil; My cup overflows.


Psa 23:6 [fn] Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life, And I will [fn] dwell in the house of the LORD [fn] forever.

Praise Him.. Jesus our Savior--also Lord!
You are a blessing to me here Roy.
Jhn 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Permalink Reply by Carla on August 12, 2010 at 11:08am

Roy.. another thought..

Just as this discussion could cause people to believe falsely that they have not been predestined and chosen by Him..therefore be a discouragement... It can also give an assurance---giving encouragement to God's beloved that they do in fact belong to HIm, and they can rest in that truth.

God is in control of it all...He is Still on the Throne... and He will not let any of His children go...His Power will hold them all and keep them safe.. Praise Him.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 15, 2010 at 7:02am

Amen, Carla,

This a an exact representation of my experience. I grew up with no assurance and then go so much I, for a time, became more of a liability than an asset. However, I have many people who I had offended by this freedom I had received come to me later and testify to how God had also set them free. I notice that some people very vehemently reject this truth at first. At one time I felt a man came to my office with a gun. He was very angry with me for teaching this truth. However, several years later I saw this man again. He couldn't wait to tell me what God had done in his life after he and others had gotten me thrown out of that church. He told me how God had wonderfully touched his heart and that he now knew who he was in Christ. Shortly after that he died. I knew he had gone to meet the Lord with assurance in his heart that Jesus was truly his Savior. This same experience has happened several times in my life. Sometimes I just don't know better when to keep my mouth shut. I pray that I do not hurt anyone seeking after God. I do get very excited when a person that Satan has in bondage to fear like I was finds freedom in Jesus Christ. I live for those days. I doubt if there is anyone out there who had the feeling more than I did that I could never be one of His chosen. His Word convinces us otherwise.

Thrilled to be free,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 14, 2010 at 8:04am

Margaret,

I know that two moderators have been following this thread. Carla has chosen to engage at times with comments and questions. I posted an article from A.W. Tozer. Beyond that I have chosen not to get involved in this discussion.

Understand that this is a Christian topic. There are two major points of view, Calvinism and Arminianism. Both camps have been around for a long time, this is not a new teaching, with various views developing and breaking away from each. People in both camps love Jesus, and most of the time each other. They disagree on what the Scriptures say regarding primarily 'predestination/election vs freewill." There are other areas of disagreement depending on which splinter cell you choose to examine, but in the end they all love Jesus and just see it differently on this topic.

As an administrator I choose not to get involved because it is a Christian topic and for the most part all participants have been respectful, even in disagreeing. I choose not to get involved because after all these years great minds, much greater than mine, still disagree with each other. When this thread dies down and falls into the archives there will still be two camps with various splinter cells. Nothing will be resolved. Some may be swayed one way or another, but end the end nothing changes and thus I see it as a circular discussion that has a predetermined (LOL) outcome.

Also, be aware that a large number of churches follow Calvinism and a large number follow Arminianims whether one recognizes them or not. For the most part people fall into one or the other camp whether they wish to or not.

The irony of it all, is that if a person stands against Calvinism they for the most part align with Arminianism whether one likes the title or not. and the reverse is true. Some will say "why can't we stick to the simple truth of Scripture?" If it were only that simple. Which truth shall we stick to? The truth as seen by Calvin, Luther, Justin the Martyr, your local preacher, the TV evangelist, you or me? People tend to see many things differently and there are honest reasons for this. As long as they are secondary issues people should be able to walk as one.

Though some of us wish not to engage in this topic, that should not deter others who have an interest in this topic from engaging in it. But, keep in mind that it is a hot topic that can lead to problems if people do not walk in love while discussing it.

I hope this helps.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 14, 2010 at 9:18am

Amen,

Since there are the two different camps, I do believe it is good for each to have an understanding of one another. Some do actually believe that those in the camp other than the one they are in are actually non or unChristian. Both views are very much Christian. It is silly for us to be separated into separate camps. I do not like the concept of separate camps at all. There is no such thing as a Calvinist Christian or an Armenian Christian. There is only one body. True, there are both those who are more in line with the Calvinistic ideas (as I am) and those who are more in line with the Armenian ideas. Neither is more Christian than the other. How do you get more Christian than John Wesley yet he and I are in different camps if you want to call it that? I do not feel I could hold a candle to that guy yet I don't agree with all he says. However, when he says something I don't agree with the idea of dismissing him as a nonChristian never enters my mind.

I am glad to have an opportunity to express my views. Because of what I have been through, I want to give Christ all the glory from start to finish for my salvation. The Calvinistic approach gives no credit to man and thus I prefer it. I am so confident there is nothing good in me I am not able to conceive of the idea that I would have ever responded without His work in me.

However, I do not want to be offensive to those who do not agree. I can assure you that those who disagree are not offending me with their comments.

Also, in the short time I have been associated with this site, I have already learned from the moderators and others. It is a very good site.

Roy

Permalink Reply by JB on August 14, 2010 at 10:57am

Roy, All due respect Bro, After a person has received Christ as his savior and has become a New Creation in Christ, how can we say that we are nothing, when indeed we are a child of God, created in His Image, a king and a priest unto Him. I know when you say that there is nothing good in you, you are speaking of the OLD MAN before salvation, The carnal man,

We are not who we used to be. We as new creation people should never look at ourselves as mere men and women anymore, In 2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (KJV)
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
So why do we call ourselves a nobody, a good for anything etc. as if we have no value in this earth? Too me that is a slap in the face of Jesus Christ after what He has done for us, why can’t we just accept Him and His sacrifice and give Him thanks for changing us from a nobody to a somebody, a child of the Most High God. We are not of this world; Praise God I have been changed by the shed blood of Jesus and I do not look at myself as a nobody. I am ONE with Him, is He a nobody also?

I really don’t know how most of you feel about being a “New Creation“, What does that mean to most of you?

I “kinda” apologize for getting a little stirred up about the way we look at the children of God, but I think it is time for us to start to recognize and acknowledge who we really are in Christ.

Last thought I think it is of no value to discuss so much in length our different opinions on these two controversial thoughts on this subject.
This saying is true in 2 Timothy 2:22-23 (KJV)
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
u>b>23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Sorry, but my intentions are not to offend any one, Please accept my apology if you find it so. If you need my e-mail address to vent your frustrations and disapproval, please let me know, Because I love all of you guys and pray for a better understanding of His Word, For myself as well.
Hopefully still friends.
Joe

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 14, 2010 at 2:42pm

Joe,

I am speaking of the basis of our election. You might believe that God chose you based on your willingness to choose Him. However, I must admit there was nothing good in me. Does this following verse apply to you or just to some of us?


Ro 3:9-12

9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one." NIV

The Bible pictures us men and women sold under sin. There is nothing good in us that caused Him to point His love right at us. He elected us but not because there was something good in us. I am saying that we simply do not understand why He chose us. Why did God choose you? Were you a new creature or did He make you a new creature? Why did He make you a new creature? I contend there was nothing good in you that caused Him to place His love upon you. You have nothing to do but to simply give Him all the praise and glory for your salvation.

Yes, He will take that ugly hunk of flesh and make something wonderful out of you. But why He chose you in the first place is a subject for debate. I know enough about you to know that He had to clean you up first just like He did me. Our discussion is about that person before Christ made Him His perfect son - before He made Him a child of God.

You could never drive me away from friendship,
Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 14, 2010 at 9:16pm

Margaret,

One thing that I can see for sure is that we are all having a pleasant conversation. I am not seeing the animosity that some are talking about. There is only one camp, not two. We are all believers in the Lord. Some will refer to me as being a Calvinist but I have learned to cope with a world full of Armenians. It really doesn't bother me at all. However, if someone ever wants to understand this freedom I have in Christ, I am quick to share.

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