WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 12, 2010 at 7:35am

Timothy,

I understand that most do not accept this kind of teaching and I am still a brother to all of them. However, if this is correct, just think of this statement you made:
It doesn't make sense to me to think that Jesus died just for His elect. What was the point?

What if His death does only cover the elect and all others are lost? What good is His death if we don't believe? Does His death save all or only those that believe in Him? Obviously, we are in agreement in this area. His blood only saves those who come to Him in faith. He substitutionary work on the cross does not universally save all. It does save all those who come to Him.

Amen? Have a great day. A brother,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Gregory on August 12, 2010 at 7:33am

I'm interested in all the comments here, but i feel some reservation to comment, as just another somebody adding his two cents...i have not cents unless the Lord provides it. I guess it's fine that people find an interest in the history of things, including our faith. Firstly, i know the Lord tells me that in all we say and do, it must be done in a spirit of encouragement and a way of stirring someone up to a greater walk and experience with Christ, who is always prodding and encouraging us as our great shepherd. Forgive me if i say the same thing here, and don't add anything additional to the conversation. Knowledge is good, but we must be wary of the fact that Knowledge puffs up, and we might want to use it in a place that isn't appropriate.
Tools are good when they are used for the proper job. So History of religion has it's place and i won't criticize that. Concepts and doctrines have their place, in keeping people together. However, they are more apt in these days and all days, (including Paul's and the Lord's), to bring confusion, strife, and dissension between peoples and believers. People need to know first what it is they are hearing, and what tool for what job it is being used. There are some things you cannot tell unbelievers. They would instantly turn away with a "he's a nut" look on their face. Then there are other things you can tell an unbeliever that is good, but the Holy Spirit is not calling them. And there I think lies some of the problems. We really are trying to define and understand what someone is doing through the template of the Lord's own freewill.
God has His own freewill as does everyone else. We talk about simplicity, Christ dying on the cross, the history of Calvinism, in comparison to Arminianism, and some don't take into account the freewill of the Father. Election and predestination are doctrines and concepts of the word, however, we must take into account that God can see from beginning to end the paradigm of our own lives and the entire universe. I'M NOT BASHING ANYONE'S ENTRIES HERE, PLEASE LET ME GET THIS OUT. DISCUSSION IS GOOD AND STIMULATING OR ELSE I WOULDN'T BE DOING IT MYSELF. There is never a last word on any subject, and this isn't it either.
These really are concepts in the english language and translations that are not done justice. English words seem to simplify the concepts of election and predestination and give the meaning from an earthly finite position, when there is actually, an eternal, infinite, omniscient position that we have no concept of what or how to understand. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. Taking the knowledge of God and putting it into codified positions based on what we know, is taking a Ferrari and turning it into a Ford Festa. It can't be done and then legitimately believe that our concept of the Lord's world actually fits our own. I'm sure and I hope the Lord laughs at me when I try to convey His thoughts and inspirations.
Paul did touch on this briefly, but eternally, when he said that some people are claiming that they are of Apollos or some were of Paul. He didn't want to be a part of any 'ism' or separation or disunity within the church of Christ. He fought for unity his entire ministry. He did fight against those teachings which were against the simplicity of Christ though. He also made mention that his ministry was pure from a position of 'simplicity and sincerity', which I feel the Lord saying to me, that that is the essence of worshipping Him, in "Spirit and truth"...they are inseparable. God knows we are a simple creature with much in the way of disadvantages.
Paul preached nothing about anything unless it came right back to the cross. 1 Corinthians 1:17
"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." And he definitely didn't send me to argue isms or theology. I am a simple creature, but i appreciate all of your comments, and alas I have added my two cents worth anyway. woe is me. You all are very smart people and I applaud you on your knowledge and wisdom. The Lord uses us in many ways, so i hope this gave a perspective that was refreshing or if anything a chuckle. We must keep a spirit of unity with our brothers and sisters in the Lord. there are so many points of contention,...this might the beginning of another blog.....but know this that I can't say anything unless the Lord is there to give it to me....God Bless....

Permalink Reply by Gregory on August 12, 2010 at 8:00am

It's all a heart thing. God is looking throughout the world for the heart that is loyal to Him. He is testing hearts, He is observing hearts. He can see things in a person that the person cannot see within themselves. He seeks for all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, yet, their heart is not in it. (a hundred cliches with this thought, but i won't go there).... It's a surrendering of the heart. "Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!" Psalms 139:23. I think this is an essence to the basis of election and pre-destiny. God's know something we don't or can ever know....God Bless.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 13, 2010 at 11:19pm

Bro Gregory,

I appreciate your response. It is unfortunately true that many follow isms more closely than God's word. They have fallen in love with disputing theological matters and being theologically sound more than having a relationship with Christ. Also many see the opposite camp's adherents, who have a different interpretation concerning the teachings of Christ about salvation, as almost enemies and heretics that need to burn on a stake. It is also true that knowledge puffs up at times. These things should not be so.

I am glad you are enjoying the comments and encourage you to continue to bless us with whatever the Lord places in your heart to share with us.

The Gospel is simple enough that a 6 year old can understand it. But it also has intricacies that keep the most brilliant minds digging for nuggets for a life time.

Blessings bro.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 14, 2010 at 4:07pm

PREVENIENT GRACE - THE WESLEYAN NECESSITY
BY JEFF PATON

We now come the issue of prevenient grace from the Wesleyan perspective. Before we elaborate on prevenient grace, we must understand the foundation in which it is based. The necessity of grace is tied to mans great need. Adam, being created with a nature that was holy and in line with his Creator, lost this nature in response to the fall. Mankind thereafter not only was born with this fallen nature, but every person has by their own volition followed Adam in this sin.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Because of this spiritual corruption, we are told in Scripture that there is none that is righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom. 3:10-11. Because of man’s fallen state, there is no spiritual life or desire within him that he would ever desire a relationship with God. When Wesley considers humanity in the present, he makes it clear that he is concerned with its "natural state," that is, its condition unassisted by the grace of God. In this state, humanity is blind to the things of God, and is not sensible of its spiritual needs. Before God opens their eyes, men and women are atheists in the world, having no knowledge and consequently no love of God, for they cannot love the God they do not know. "We have by nature," Wesley continues, "not only no love, but no fear of God." Without the grace of God, therefore, all people are rank idolaters, filled with pride, self-will, and love of the world...Wesley writes: "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness, but wounds and bruises and putrefying sores. The same account is given by all the apostles, yea, by the whole tenor of the oracles of God. From all these we learn concerning man in his natural state, unassisted by the grace of God, that "all the imaginations of the thoughts of his heart" are still "evil, only evil," and that continually."7 This condition is sometimes called Original Sin, or Total Depravity. It is common in modern day religion to hear much about our responsibility to "decide" for Christ, or other appeals to our "free-will" for salvation. But Scripture is clear on this issue that in our "natural state," we are not free to respond in any way on our own. Jesus seems to put the final nail in the coffin of free-will by saying that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." Jn. 6:44.

Fallen man has no desire to seek salvation, and cannot unless God calls him! It seems like we must accept the fatalism of Calvinism which leaves the majority in hopeless depravity while blessing a select few with a divine call which goes against the Scriptural truths that Jesus died for all men, and that the gospel invitation is for all men without exception. The other option is to go against the Scriptures just quoted about the nature of man and the call of God and deny the truth of total depravity. " To escape this consequence, certain divines have invented what they are pleased to call "natural ability." Under the old system, man has no ability whatever to repent and obey God, until he is converted. He cannot repent, even with "common grace." But the new system teaches us that he can do so of his own natural strength, without grace, and deserves to perish if he neglects it. It is assumed that he can convert himself, wake himself up, and love God with a pure heart fervently. This error plunges from one extreme to another in quick succession."8 It seems like our choices put us on one horn of the dilemma or the other.

Wesley however, chose a middle way between the two. Holding to Scripture on all accounts, he held to the total depravity of man and the universal call of salvation. While Wesley rejected the doctrine of a limited atonement, he did not go to the far left on the issue of free-will. It appears that he stressed free grace to avoid a gospel of pulling one’s self up by their own bootstraps. The issue of depravity and free-will seem to cancel each other out, but Wesley followed others who saw that this does not have to be a contradiction. He believed that this was accomplished through a doctrine of prevenient grace.

Was Wesley’s doctrine nothing more than a theological expedient? What is the Biblical basis of this doctrine? Does it have a history, and does the data match the experience of believers?
These questions will be considered in our next chapter.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 14, 2010 at 4:50pm

Prevenient Grace,

Now, you come to the doctrine under which I grew up. As one who grew up in the holiness movement, this was taught me just as if it was presented as such in the New Testament (which by the way it is not). Why did Wesley come up with this understanding? It is strictly because the Scripture is so obvious on the subject of total depravity. The Bible pictures man totally dead in his sins. Even though many do not see man in this way, this is the very picture of man without God. Man is dead in his sins. He has no hope. Jesus must do something to this dead man.

The Biblical doctrine (as I have come to see it) is that the Holy Spirit breathes on this dead man in his sins and raises him from the dead. Jesus spoke of this as being born again - the new birth. It is my understanding from Scripture that you have no more to do with this new birth than you had to do with your original birth. To some this seems unfair and they must put the decision of following after Christ upon man - thus the doctrine of prevenient grace. The Spirit wakes you just enough for you to make a decision. If you decide, yes, you are chosen. If you say, no, you will remain lost in your sins. I see no basis for such a doctrine other than simply man's wisdom.

However, as I have said all over this site, I remain extremely respectful of John Wesley and do not feel that any of us comes close to measuring up to this man. However, I just cannot justify his position on prevenient grace.

I understand some will disagree and I will love them based on their understanding that some will reject the call of Christ. I believe John 10 and other Scripture teaches us that all His chosen will follow Him. When the call is made, all will follow Him.

Nope, it doesn't explain it for me. I can also tell you that those who accept this doctrine mostly feel they have a certain responsibility to keep their salvation. I for one believe this reduces our relationship to a works based salvation.

David, you are a premillenial Calvinist. You are a rare breed. You just don't see too many of them. They are out there. However, I believe it is the simple understanding of God's Word.

Jesus Christ, from start to finish - to Him goes all the praise.

Amen.

Permalink Reply by Joleen on August 14, 2010 at 5:20pm

when i come to this site I normally go straight clicking on latest activity's to see whats being said now. And Roy I know you didn't intend for telling David he was a RARE BREED to be funny... but it made me laugh.. he is most definitely a rare breed . I mean think about it . He has been to prison. He hung out with gangs "i think". He had a rough life all around and here this grown man will say things like "SOWWIE" instead of sorry. He jumps into every conversation even if it be directed mainly for women lol. Thanks Roy for the unintentional funny. I was hoping to find something to read for a laugh. Rare breed I reckon, Ok Im back to my game.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 14, 2010 at 9:12pm

Alienated,

Yes, he blesses my soul as well. He just reminds me of how great God is. I grew up in a Christian home but still had to find Christ's love. I grew up in a very legalistic environment. But this guy, his story is unbelievable. We are all very fortunate to have our Lord.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 14, 2010 at 11:22pm

hahaha - Love you girl. You are all too kind. Praise God. He is worthy to be praise. I hear testimonies that make mine look like nothing. Like the testimonies of people who grew up in Church and were surrounded by religion, but not folks who had relationships with the Lord. I imagine that is tougher than my predicament. God did not have to work hard in me to make me realized I needed Him. Once the Spirit worked in me, I threw my hands up and said, yes Lord, Guilty as charge. I am a sinner and I am tire.

But those brothers that grew up thinking I am a good person. A good individual with morals and values, I am not like that David down the street haha Now that's a tough cookie to break, but not even close to impossible for our Lord.

Permalink Reply by Carla on August 15, 2010 at 9:18am

This is such an encouraging post David..

Your words are filled with wisdom and understanding...and that last phrase is so encouraging...: "But those brothers that grew up thinking I am a good person. A good individual with morals and values, I am not like that David down the street haha Now that's a tough cookie to break, but not even close to impossible for our Lord."

This describes my husband.... I continue to pray that God will cause him to realize his need for Jesus..

I was praying the other day, and I believe God said to me "You have finally gotten to the point that this has nothing to do with you....I Will do this"... now I have prayed for confirmation that it was God that I heard from. This is for God's Glory..

Psalm 46:10 " [fn] Cease striving and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the [fn] nations, I will be exalted in the earth." NASB

It has taken me awhile to 'cease striving' or 'be still' as others versions say... But I am now there... Now that I have gotten out of the way God can work.

Blessings to you dear bro... u truly are God's servant.
In Him, Carla

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 15, 2010 at 9:25am

Amen and amen. Praise God. There is no way he will be able to resist the grace that is within you.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 14, 2010 at 8:31pm

Linda,

I think I am in agreement with you. Am I missing something? I have no problems with the person who feels it is their responsibility to respond. However, to me that makes it partially by grace and partially by me. I do believe I have responsibility in this relationship. However, my relationship has nothing to do whether or not I belong to Him. That part is done. He did it. He has given me as His disciple a job to do. I must do it. I am driven to serve Him. However, I do not strive to earn His love. I know I have that already. I was born into His family. I don't know how or why no more than I understand why I am a member of my earthly family. However, I know I am a part of the family of God. I will always be a Wilson as long as I am on this earth. I will be a member of His family for eternity.

What do I say about all this. How do I thank Him? Do I just say thank you or do I scream to the heavens that He has saved me from my sins. Some folks say this may cause some to back away thinking they are not chosen. If we truly believe in Him we are chosen. If we don't believe we don't care. I guess I am not seeing the problem.

If some are convinced that I am wrong, what do I say? Well, just let me go on living in this state of spiritual consciousness thinking I am extra special - that He chose me to be His own. I love David's testimony. I love it when God does something like that. He takes this guy out of prison to teach us all. (Don't get puffed up David. You've got a way to go but you certainly are anointed to teach). I am being enriched by this teaching. I have no idea why anyone would resist this. Their worry is that God is not fair. I just don't think I would worry about God. He knows what He is doing and He will do what is right. We don't understand His way but we know it is right. We trust Him. He is our Father. Our Father is right. He is always right. He is never wrong. Linda, for some reason He wanted you. You will never be able to get away from Him even though I know you will never want to. When He says He will never leave you, He really means what He says. He will be right there with you through all your trials. This is not some euphoric teaching. This is Scripture.


Eph 1:4-5 In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—NIV

Hallelujah. He placed His love upon us.

Roy

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