WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 9, 2010 at 10:57pm

Wow! These are excellent posts. I am hesitant to even say anything as the wisdom spoken here is very good. I do have a little experience in logic as I teach that in a very limited way in geometry. Proving theorems in geometry is one of my favorite things to do. To do so, one has to follow the laws of logic. One of those laws is the law of non-contradiction. This simply states that two opposing views cannot both be true. I think what we are discussing here is the free will of man. Does man have free will? Does man have the freedom to choose God?

Either man is free or he is not free. Both of these positions cannot be true. It is either one or the other. Either man has free will or he does not. I think it is quite clear and that many will come to the conclusion that man no longer has a free will. He did have a free will in the Garden but lost that through his disobedience. I can understand that man can decide whether or not he can go to a Wal-Mart or Price Chopper but does he have the free will to choose God? If so, doesn't that give him somewhat of a moral capability? That is not the picture I see painted of man in Scripture. I think it is very obvious that man does not have the ability to choose God. Our discussion is what then? How does God get man to choose Him? The Armenian has God giving man just enough of His grace to give him the opportunity to choose or reject Him. This position does not seem on the surface to violate this law of non-contradiction. The idea seems to be supported by verse such as: For God so loved the world that He gave His only son that whoever believes in Him.... and

Rv 22:17

17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. NIV

Of course the King James says "Whosoever will..." Of course there are other verses which indicate it is man's choice. However, is it possible that it is both God's choice and man's choice? By mutual agreement God chooses man and man chooses God. If so, there would be some consensus that man does have a free will. Well, if man does have the free will to choose, I have misunderstood Scripture.

In Scripture I see a man hopelessly lost in his sin. He sometimes does have an appearance of good but could easily be explained away as a selfish ambition dedicated to the art of glorifying or even attempting to please God with good works. We recognize these works as not being good.

I do not want to offend anyone by addressing the issue. I must admit that I do struggle with the idea that man has a free moral will. He has a sort of freedom as LT has described but it is extremely limited. I do not see man with the ability to choose good. He may have the appearance of good but his motives are not morally good.

If man is good, he can choose good. If he has no goodness, he cannot choose good unless of course God gives him just enough of His grace to choose good. I think there is a problem here with this theory or prevenient grace.

I think the discussion is very beneficial.

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 12, 2010 at 1:03pm

Great inpute Roy -

I am so behind in this discussion. I am glad you are sharing.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 11, 2010 at 9:32pm

Beloved Scribe-

I venture into such topics because I know you got my back man hahaha

I know I am among Godly man and woman who will not hesitate to touch on these issues without forgetting that we are to love one another above all else. Also - if I have missed it somehow or somewhere, I know you all will lovingly set me straight.

Thank you for your impute and I hope you have some time to bless us with details about what you have concluded:

* Both camps are correct in their assertions, yet

I agree up to a point. So please clarify, because I may end up agreeing fully after you do.

* both camps are incorrect in what they deny.

Come on bro you can leave us hanging. Give as an example please.

* Both camps make their assertions based on scripture, yet

True and a well merited, yet.

* both camps fail to hear/observe the scriptural basis of the other.

Unfortunately true for most adherents of any of the schools. I have found in both camps family who thinks the other camp is their enemy and that is extremely unfortunate and it should not be so. Both schools of theology have so much more in common than not.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 16, 2010 at 12:17am

This vid was painful to watch Linda,

It claims that the following is the contextual bible truth, but is so easy to show that is not that I fear embarrassing the people that produced it.

It goes on to say: that Calvinism is a biblically FALSE teaching. Huh? Ok show me please, was my attitude when I was watching it. Because you know the boy wants to be biblically correct more than anything else. Yes! To love God and His people with the truth. So as I sat here drinking my coffee expecting nuclear bombs against the doctrines of Grace as explained by the Reformers i got a heartburn. hahaha

>>Fact – the early church was primarily Jewish for the first decade. Sure.
The following fact they claimed according to the vid is that “Every time the words predestine and elect are used in the N.T. – they are speaking to the 1st century Jews in the Church.

Now the vid does not quote any verses to show their claim since they are claiming a universal truth of N.T. meaning for the words aforementioned.

Later on the vid siad: >“They both (Peter and Paul) were “Selected” by Jesus… they both were always overwhelmed how Jesus had CHOSEN them when they were not even looking for Him.

At this point I sat up and asked myself ok are these guys (the producers of the vid) for or against election?

Then this claim was made:"they both understood that it was because they were part of the elect or predestined out of ISRAEL that they were chosen to bring the Gospel in the last days.

Ok please show me with scripture I was saying at this point.

Then the vid says: “Paul challenge these to not grow weary and to work in the power of God. “

Who are the “THESE?”

The vid then says: “He says they were (again who the Israelites only, I am assuming) predestined, chosen, elected…so that they WOULD prosper in their efforts.

I though like most scholars Paul was speaking to the church in Chapter 8?”

Immediately following the above statement he jumps to a proof text in Romans 2:17

Romans 2:17 (New King James Version)
The Jews Guilty as the Gentiles
17 Indeed[a] you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,

And

Romans 7
Freed from the Law
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

After stating the above the writer goes on to say: “It couldn’t be any more CLEAR. In Chapters 1-8 Paul is speaking to Jewish believers in the Church.

What? I can use so many verses to debunk that statement. What about:

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Romans 2
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
As we can read from the subtitle to Romans 2:17 The Jews Guilty as the Gentiles
God is speaking to Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 3
All Have Sinned

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

I can go on and on and on, but you get the pic.

The vid then claims that: >“is not up to Romans 11 when he finally “shifts” his audience to the Gentiles.”

Completely wrong assessment of Scripture.
To begin with his audience was Gentiles. The letter is written to the Church in Rome. Primarily Gentiles. Paul indeed is teaching all that no man is without an excuse and salvation/justification was for all nations, not just Israel.

The vid then shifts to Ephesians 1 and claims the following:

“In Ephesians 1 Paul spends the first 11 verses declaring the wonders of God for adopting them (Jews) as God’s children through Jesus.

Again, What?

Ephesians 1
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

To begin with Ephesians was located in what is now Turkey a Gentile audience once again, since Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Then the vid quotes:

Ephesians 1
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

And claims that: “The FIRST to hope in Christ were All Jews. (see Acts 2-3)”Ok but what about the rest of Acts?

The vid finishes by stating that the Lord had chosen some Jews to take the Gospel to the world and that only the Jews were the Elect and the rest of the world is not the elect and will be saved through the gospel being preached.

This to me is a very poor effort to try to debunk the election of the saints and actually proofs that there are those who are elected. However this vid is bad in that it makes God a partial God who only elected Jews (so they agree with partial election). I however believe that God is not partial and the Elect are throughout the world.

I think we get into all kinds of problems (like this one) when we try to proof election is not for God's people through all the world.

I know you where just putting it up as a vid that tried to proof that election as the Reformers see it is not thought of as a biblical concept by some. For that I thank you, but it was still a sad effort and this argument is not used by serious scholars.

Blessings sis.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 10, 2010 at 12:24am

James White refutes Chuck Smith's take on predestination. I have seen the video above and have seen many, many others like it.

Let me say here that I Love Calvary Chapel. I fellowship at on close to my house and I thank God for men like Chuck Smith. However James has a point about the treatment the brothers gave the doctrine of Predestination.


PLEASE FAMILY LET US LEARN FROM THESE TYPE OF EXCHANGES IN THE VIDEOS PRESENTED HERE. PLEASE DO NOT GET OFFENDED, BUT BEAR WITH THE VIDEOS AND LET'S LEARN WHAT TO DO AND WHAT NOT TO DO FROM THEM.

No one can deny the fact that Calvery Chapel is a God movement. Here is what I was talking about clearing up some misunderstandings between the 2 major schools of Theology, so we can equip ourselves correctly.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 12, 2010 at 5:30am

Linda,

Didn't John Wesley also believe in a intermediate state between death and heaven or hell? He also taught our ability to reach sinless perfection. I grew up in this holiness teaching. This teaching caused me much grief as I was so far from sinless perfection, I couldn't even imagine such a thing. This is called the doctrine of entire sanctification. This is the doctrine taught in the Bible college I attended. Later, I would discover that the teachers of the doctrine were almost as far from sinless perfection as I was. He also taught that we could not be sure of our salvation. Before you disagree with me about what this wonderful man teaches you have to understand that I grew up under this teaching.

I have great admiration for John Wesley. However, I don't recommend this part of his teaching unless you feel you are prepared to enter into a state of sinless perfection and continue to work for your salvation. John Wesley was a great advocate of Armenianism. However, people that quote his position on salvation, completely ignore his position on entire sanctification. One leads to the other and I really don't think you want to go there. Well, there are a couple of you out there that may. I admire you as well. I am one that is going to have to accept that Jesus has already done everything for me. Since I cannot reach perfection, I am going to have to receive His to be perfect.

I have a lot of experience with Wesleyans. I can tell you that most have forsaken his doctrines long ago even though they hang onto this Armenian part.

Still admire John Wesley
Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 10, 2010 at 12:53am

Predestination-

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 12, 2010 at 6:54am

We are willing to go to great lengths to make God good. When God created Adam and Eve, He knew exactly what He was doing, exactly what the result would be, and exactly what His plan would be as a consequence. God has a right to do whatever He wills to do with His creation. We will learn much in our lives but we will never learn it all. Since I do not have a lot of time, I am not going to waste it by attempting to explain away our God. Some belong to Him and some do not. Our God is a God of perfect love. He has proved His love to us by completely saving us from our sin. I would encourage you to allow God to worry about what is right, fair and equal. You don't have enough time in this life to worry your little minds with such things. If He is your God and if you belong to Him, put your trust in Him. Trust Him to do everything right. He has come to save you and to take you away with Him to a place He is preparing for you. Just relax, put your trust in Him; He will do everything just right. We are created in His image but we are fallen. Now, we have to be born a second time. You have no more to do with the second birth than you had to do with the first birth. (Please don't get angry at me for that statement. Please ignore this statement if it bothers you.) He created you in the first place and He recreated you the second time. You were fallen, sold unto sin. He redeemed you, restored you unto Himself. He has the right to do that. Don't resist Him. Trust in Him.


Isa 45:9-10

9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?' NIV

If you are His child, rejoice in your Savior. Rejoice in your redemption. Rejoice in all that He is doing within you. Be patient. He is still working in you His will to perform. He will complete the work. Trust in Him. Be patient, dear child of His. He is not finished with you or you would have already gone to be with Him. Someday we will all be together with Him in glory. Let us work together until that day to speak of His greatness. His sheep will hear His voice through our preaching and they will follow Him. They will also be reborn just as you have been.

Thanking Him for the rebirth,
Roy

O, and by the way, still learning and with still much to learn -

Who are those who have been reborn? - those that believe in Him.

Rejoice, you fallen ones, for you have been redeemed. You have been saved from the wrath to come.

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on August 10, 2010 at 4:40am

There is only One Who can predestine anything. I can't do it and neither can any other human.

God sees from beginning to end. He saw us before we were born. He knew which direction we would take. He knew which of us would choose Christ and which of us would reject Him. That is predestination.

He didn't pick or choose any one. We all have the same opportunity as the next guy. We all have been given our time on this earth. What we do with this time we are allotted is up to us. Our final destination is based on the choices we make. Is God manipulating our choices? No. Because if He were, there would be no free choice.

If we look at predestination in any other way, we are lying to ourselves.

Rita

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 10, 2010 at 6:05am

All, God loves you all,

If it is completely up to man, someone, please someone explain this verse to me:

Ro 9:10-18

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad — in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls — she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy ,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy . 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy , and he hardens whom he wants to harden. NIV

What, please tell me, does it mean that it does not depend on man's desire or effort? Remember, in the laws of logic, this is true or it is not true. Remember, God does not completely guarantee our understanding in what He does. However, He has given us the ability to deduct certain things.

From what I am getting from the above post is that these words are blasphemous. Yet, we certainly know that cannot be true since this is His Word.

Everyone believes the following verse to be true but many do not accept what it says:

Eph 2:7-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. NIV

In order to come to Him you must believe in Him. It is through the power of His grace that we are saved. We are not saved because we choose Him. Yes, our part is faith. But where does that faith come from? Why do I believe and another doesn't believe?

You are talking as if we are saved by our choice. We do not get saved by choosing anything. We are saved because we believe and confess that belief. Does one choose to believe and the other chooses not to believe?

One thing we all agree on is that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. We all agree on that. We all agree that whoever wills may come. What we don't agree on is that it is man that chooses to believe in Him.

O, this wonderful faith! Where does it come from? Does it come somewhere from within me? Does God look into the future and see my faith and then predestines me to salvation? This is what I can not agree with. Your doctrines are giving much of the credit to man. I just don't give him any.

The study must begin with man and the understanding of total depravity. You cannot begin with predestination. We must understand man to understand this issue. Is man depraved or does he have enough decency left in him after the fall to choose God?

Total depravity - that is where the study must begin. That helps me to understand His choice of Abel over Cain, Jacob over Esau. Please, take a look at the very first man born under sin in this world.

However, before we do anything else, we need to make up this wise council of man to determine that God does everything the way we think He should do them. We need this council for God to come to in His decisions. It is up to them to decide if what He does is right. Then, if God gets their approval, He can go ahead and act according to their will.

Does this sound ridiculous to you? If so, try to embrace what He says rather than to explain Him away. Embrace Who He is. However, even if you set up that wise council, He will not come at the appointed meeting time. In fact, you are way too late. These choices were made before man did anything.

Your wise council is convinced that God must do everything according to man's desire. That is utter nonsense! It is man's choice, it is man's choice! Why do you praise man so much? He is utterly depraved. Man is absolutely capable of taking a young unborn baby, bringing him or her partially out of the mother's womb and crushing its tiny little head. I tell you that is depraved. What kind of a person could sit on the highest court of our land and say that it is a mother's choice? Choice? Yuck! I'm telling you that is utterly depraved. Folks, that was a decision by the highest Court of this glorious nation some of us still call Christian. Where can we go for wise counsel? Maybe man is less depraved in Australia or the United Kingdom. Surely, man is better somewhere else. Surely, he is not the same everywhere. Does God need to get His permission from our highest court? Where can He go for advice? Where is the wise counsel? Surely He needs to give an answer for His deeds.

Total depravity, David, I tell you total depravity. When we get a true picture of man we will stop giving him praise. We will humble our proud little selves and give all praise and glory unto our God and King. We will stop saying, "IT WAS ME, ME, ME, ME, ME! I AM SAVED BECAUSE OF ME!"

You all sound like Gollum in Lord of the Rings:

Where would you be without me, gollum, gollum? I saved us! It was me! We survived because of me!

However, I am very grateful to be one of you. You are all saved by His grace and I am very grateful to be in that number. But, please, do not include me in your wise council.

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 10, 2010 at 7:23am

All,

Does man have the ability to choose God? If you say no but that God gives him enough of his grace to give him the ability to choose him, how much of His grace does He give? To choose God man has got to believe in Him. Can he believe in Him and not be saved? If he believes in Him does he have the ability to reject Him.

I say that he must first be born again. Man is born again by the Spirit and that Spirit is like the wind blowing where ever He wills.

How much work does God have to do before man believes - a little bit or everything? Is it possible to have just an inkling of faith without being saved? Is God depending on me to choose Him? Maybe you see some goodness in yourselves but I struggle to see anything good in me. I am utterly and totally lost - dead. I have no hope but Him. He must raise me up. I must be born again to even see Him. God forgive us for our selfish pride.

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 10, 2010 at 7:28am

John Wesley,

You are smarter, more gifted, better than I could ever imagine. However, I must admit that I don't think there was one little bit of goodness in you that caused God to put His wonderful love upon you. I have read many of your sermons. You have lifted me up and torn me down. I admire you. However, I don't give you one little bit of credit for your salvation.

By the way, did you all know that John Wesley said that if you send your sons to a public school, you might as well send them to hell.

I must admit that John Wesley is much smarter than I will ever be. However, I must stop short of ever giving him any praise for his salvation. I guess I have to reserve that all for God.

Roy

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