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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Carla,
I wonder what everyone thinks of this story. I shudder with just the thought of not doing something God has commanded. However, well, I really appreciate your story. I wish this was an issue we could just blink our eyes and it would go away. This is just an area I cannot figure out. I think this forum has been very helpful.
I think one of the best positions I saw on this forum was put there by Mop. She said:
If I went to church and found it to have a female preaching and if she was preaching the word I would be ok with it. But if her husband was sitting there and him also a preacher I would find it more comfortable him as leader. Why? Because I believe that the man should be the head of his family and of the church. Because of the scripture mentioned in this forum. Hope i dont offend anyone . I was reminded in a message about these forums and so here I am and Im reading and trying to be alert again and these forums help...
However, let me add a question to the position that I really like. What if the wife had greater understanding of the Word? I have heard many men that thought they were supposed to be preachers that would have been better off finding another occupation (at least by what I saw, but who am I). I personally would prefer to hear the one that had the greater revelation of His Word. However, that being said, I still like the comment.
Roy
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Dear Roy,
You are a continual blessing to me here on AAG. It's your humility which speaks volumes and teaches me in addition to the words you speak. I think that if women teach, it should be a combination of those things also. Gentleness, combined with wisdom, understanding and knowledge....and always in Love.
Personally, I prefer to be taught by a man, but it depends on if the women is obedient and truthful to God. If (when) I see discrepencies between the fruit the teacher bears, and the teaching (man or women), I am less apt to listen, and then I will even move to expose a potential false teacher (man or women).... Each one of us is accountable to 'study and show ourselves approved...and rightly divide the word of truth...' that is our accountability simply because we are believers. I always correct with scripture... As long is scripture is being taught, does it really matter where it comes from?... Even still having said that, I prefer to be taught by a man. :-)
now.... I am very lazy by nature. I have to push myself to study.....really to do anything. It would be easy for me to just say '.....let the man teach'. However, My husband is a non-believer.. I am compelled to teach my children..(I know that is not what this discussion is about)... but does that not make me a leader in my home??? The Holy Spirit teaches me, and He has gifted me with discernment. That gifting brings a treemendous responsibility. One can't just 'sit on' discernment....action needs to follow.
Anyhow.... I love what you said here...."I personally would prefer to hear the one that had the greater revelation of His Word. However, that being said, I still like the comment."
I really like Janie's (Mop) comment also.
ps-- by the way, my Pastor has long hair, he also teaches in jeans and a T'shirt.... And he's a great teacher, I am blessed to be able to learn from him!!! ;-)
If there is no man who can or will fulfill the position where someone is needed...Then I believe that God will raise up a women to do the job. By the way, Joyce Meyers is coming to Toronto this weekend to teach a 3 day seminar, and I am going with my Mom, my stepdad, and my brother... I am looking forward to it.
Blessings and Love to you brother.
In Him, Carla
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Carla,
I am not trying to change people's mind on anything. There are some people on her that are convinced women should not work in the role of pastor. I have no problem with that position. However, I sometimes wonder if Paul was not referring to a cultural position rather than a permanent one. For instance: I posted on here somewhere about women having short hair. Scripture definitely speaks to that issue as well. I have noticed some being critical of women pastors who I have noticed have cut their hair. I addressed this but now can't find the post as I think I want to delete it. Times change and cultures change. I would like to see a pastor out there demand that all the women in his church to quit cutting their hair as their long hair was given to them as a covering. Aren't we being just a little hypocritical by saying it is okay now for women to cut their hair because the culture has changed?
Here is one guy that has no intention of tackling the short hair issue or long hair for guys. I guess I just don't thing these are the most important issues that we have to face. I grew up in a denomination that had a lot of small churches. Men would not go pastor those small churches. The only people that we could find to pastor those congregations were some women. Some might say to those people that they should just close their church if no man could be found to pastor. My mother-in-law was one of those such ladies. She went to a small town in Oklahoma to pastor a church. No man could be found for the job. Back then, the churches had parsonages. However, all they had was a hut with a dirt floor. My mother-in-law pastored the church and taught the little school in the church and lived all alone in a hut with a dirt floor (she had not married yet).
She remains the most Godly woman I have ever known. It was tough to get permission to marry their daughter but that daughter has the same kind of toughness that woman had. She raised five children all serving the Lord today. She did marry a wonderful man. They never had much money but the heritage is unmatchable.
I am convinced God called her to do that job. God bless all the men but in some cases I just don't think they are tough enough to get the job done.
God bless you all,
Roy
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Dear Roy,
Praise God that He does indeed raise people up to serve Him as they surrender to Him. Just as the Jews would not proclaim the message of Christ...He called the gentiles to do the job... To shut down the women who wish to proclaim it seems to be working against God and His Will.... God will raise up those who surrender to Him... I believe that to be true.
ps---i still prefer to be taught by a man... ;-)
Blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Carla,
I'm wondering, why didn't she think her influence as.. lets say.. a nun would be sufficient. Why did she desire the highest ranking title of leadership? I don't know the person you speak of, so I can't say. But I would be curious to ask her that. Basically what I gather from the above is a person wanting an elite title, a desire for personal recognition. As women teaching other women and young children, we deliver great influence. So where is the need for a woman to obtain a title of Chief something-or-other?
Please don't take offense to my response. It's not intended that way. I'm just contemplating your story and this is what came to me. Luv u sis, Carla ;-)
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Hi Ginny,
Only God can judge her motivations and intentions. Each one of us is accountable to Him.
Blessings, Carla
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Carla, I agree that God is the judge, and the words I wrote were maybe too harsh. I see now how they can be taken. I don't always explain myself well. However, my intent was not to condemn a person I do not know personally. I am merely a child of the Most High wanting to learn, which requires using my own questionable discernment. I was basically thinking out loud, here. This woman can very well be a woman called by God to do the work she is doing; I simply do not know one way or another. I don't know her, but God does. Really, I don't want to seem to condemn this person, but I'd like to hopefully clarify where I was coming from better. In all kindness, it was said that this woman pastor left the Catholic Church "because (sole purpose) she was not able to become a priest." That statement, alone, brought me to wonder what her motives truly were for separating her self and establishing new churches. Not that I know what her motives were, because I don't. I simply wondered. It was more of a question to be pondered theoretically than an attack on the individual. I'm thinking principalities here, not about finding a way to condemn an individual. Hope you can understand. And if I'm still wrong by doing that, please forgive me for allowing what might be viewed as a personal insult to allude me. Again, I don't know the woman in the story, so I don't see how I can possibly insult her person. Only God knows her true motive and calling, I do not. If I'm way out of line, please help me to see it. I want to be corrected. I love these forums and the people that contribute to them. I learn alot!
God bless!
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Hi Ginny,
You are a blessing here.. I don't believe you were condemning her....
I Praise God that He puts a calling on each one of our lives... And it is a beautiful thing to watch someone live in surrender and obedience to Him. If she did leave the Catholic church because they would not allow her to serve Him in the capacity that she has been called to.....then Praise be to God...and kudos to her.. ;-)
Even if her motives are not pure... the message is still being preached.. Praise Be to God.
Blessings and Much Love to you in Christ, Carla
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Permalink Reply by littlesheep88 on
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Hello
I agree. Although God has used women back then and now. We all know about Mary (Jesus mom!), Ruth, and Esther. But many forget about Deborah found in Judges 4-5.
Deborah, in the Bible, prophetess and judge of Israel, the only woman
to hold that office. Under her guidance Barak conquered Sisera and
delivered Israel from the oppression of the Canaanite King Yavin.
Deborah served as Israel's Judge when no men were willing to lead.
The triumphant "Song of Deborah" is one of the most ancient literary
pieces in the Bible.
http://www.amit.org.il/learning/english/jw/deborah.htm
God can use anyone and gives men and women specific roles to play. It's seen in how He created us so differently, yet values us equally.
God Bless!
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Linda,
Good stuff sister. Very valuable reminder. Yes indeed.
Father God help us men to be men after your own heart.
Help us stop being rebellious, cowers, abusive, disobedient and instead be the Godly Spiritual leaders a dying world , our fellowships and our homes are in so much need of.
For my sisters who are married to unbelievers. Lord honored their faithfulness to you, as they continue to love and serve their husbands. Help them to continue to shine for you with their conduct.
In Jesus name I pray. Amen.
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...Interestingly true, and sad. Thank you for your comment.
God Bless!
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Linda,
Good comment and amen to the "Turn the hearts of the fathers toward home..." When a society comes under effeminacy, it is in trouble as was this society in Isaiah and on other occasions. This is happening in our society and yes we are in trouble. We have people who are paying more attention to Oprah than to the Word. When a nation has an army of women and children, they may as well plan for utter defeat. It will happen. Many men, especially here in America, are spending all their time and money on gaming, sports and entertainment. Homes are being led by the women. The responsibility of training the child is being neglected by the men. We have problems.
However, on another point, I do have a problem with everyone attempting to correct the woman that feels God’s anointing on her life especially when she is responding when men are not available or willing. I mentioned my mother-in-law who pastored some of the small churches in the denomination I grew up in. These were churches that had no men available to pastor. What was her motive? I can tell you from her life that her motive was a love for God and His service. That woman lived a life of prayer. When something was wrong, she is the one we wanted to pray. I wish she were still around but she has gone on to be with our Lord. My brother-in-law had a death experience. He was gone around eighteen minutes. Guess who was the first one he testified to seeing on the other side?
I really think we should be very careful correcting these ladies. I am convinced some have a calling from God on their lives. The question then is: how do we relate that with Scripture? First of all, I would like to say that the same people that are so particular about the women teaching men seem to skim over other similar Scripture. For instance:
1 Ti 2:12
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. NKJV
I can read. No doubt, the Bible does say this. I tread fearfully in this area. My question is this: is there a New Testament law that states that no woman shall be allowed to preach His Word to men. If so, the argument is over. I will not argue with His Word. However, I am wondering if He is making a law here for us or are we following a Kingdom principle?
We are so quick to make new laws. There is a Kingdom principle involved. If your actions are offending a brother, you should cease your actions. Is it wrong to eat meat offered to idols? No question – in the address of the Jerusalem council, new Christians were instructed not to eat meat that had been offered to idols:
Ac 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols NIV
However, later, as the church expanded westward into Corinth and even farther, Paul wrote that it wasn’t wrong. However, if it offended the one with weaker faith, the believer was not to eat that meat. He says:
1 Co 8:9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. NIV
You see, to the person that believes it is wrong, it is wrong. To the person who believes it is not wrong, it is not, but we are not permitted to hurt those who believe it is by eating in front of them. The culture in Western Europe was much different than that in the Middle East. Things that were offensive to those in the Middle East were not offensive to those in Western Europe.
Then, Jesus jumped on the believers in Thyatira for their encouraging people to eat meat offered to idols. Wow! Is it a law or isn’t it? Here is the Kingdom principle as I see it: you should not ever teach someone to do something they think is wrong. You are teaching them to violate their conscience. If you eat the meat (not an issue at all in our culture), just eat in silence. Is it sinful for all men to eat meat offered to an idol? Apparently not but there is a Kingdom principle involved here. Is it a sin for women to cut their hair? Not in our culture but there are still countries in our world where it would be offensive.
Note:
1 Co 11:5-6 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head — it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. NIV
Why have we departed this practice? This is spoken in the same kind of voice the silence to woman is spoken. Women were not to cut their hair. This very much was a part of the first century Christian woman. Should we make this a law for the women of the West? If we did, we would have a major problem.
1 Co 11:14-16
14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice — nor do the churches of God. NIV
What about the men? Should we address their hair as well?
1 Co 14:29-35
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
How many of your churches followed this directive in your service this week? This was the practice of the first century church. There are more than just this directive concerning the service, many of which have been set aside. I guarantee that not one of you went to a service this week that followed the first century Biblical order given by Paul for the church service.
The verses continue: As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. NIV
I see too many people picking and choosing what part of the 1st century directives they want to follow and discarding the others. Then, they come on this site and discredit those who don’t follow the exact ones they have decided to follow but would become offended if someone would require them to follow all the directives. Would you like me to give you a picture of the first century Christian? The first century woman would have long hair, a covering on her head, a long dress-like garment that would not reveal the waist, no jewelry, no make-up, etc. If you ladies were to walk into a first century church service, you would be considered a disgrace. One look at you, and the people would immediately begin to attempt to win you over to Christianity. They would immediately begin to explain to you why you shouldn’t dress the way you dress.
But, how many of you were considered a disgrace in your service this last Sunday? I have a feeling that every one of you dressed in a way that was considered appropriate for your church. Some of you may have even worn jeans – a practice that I guarantee disgraceful in the 1st and many centuries after that. By the way, how many of you women wear jeans? I can remember in my life when jeans were clothes that only men wore.
What am I saying? Times change and culture changes. You ignore most of the culture of the 1st century church but you have grabbed at this one issue. Notice what Paul says: “…for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” Many practices of the woman today would be disgraceful to the 1st century church – as well as many practices of the men and especially the senior pastor idea.
It would have been disgraceful for a woman to speak in the 1st century church. Today, in many churches, it is not disgraceful. There are still churches where it would be considered disgraceful but not as many as in the past. Many men are beginning to appreciate the contributions of women from the Word of God. It is no longer disgraceful.
The sin is in the motive. Is that woman saying, “I don’t care what the Bible says, I’m going to teach men anyway?” If so, the woman is wrong. However, is the woman saying, “God has laid this calling so heavily on my heart that I can’t resist Him,” there is no sin. Yes, she would be a disgrace in the 1st century church but not today. We are on the other side of Susan Anthony from those days. Today, it is not an affront for a woman to vote, to speak in the public square, to speak loudly on the issues of abortion, etc., and to speak publicly in the church – all practices that would have been a disgrace to the 1st century Christian.
Is it possible that God did not intend to give us a law in this matter? Man has so much trouble with law. We get rid of one and take on another. We are under grace and not law. I really believe that God called my mother-in-law to preach the Gospel. He only did that because it did not violate the higher purpose of His grace. If God is giving us law in the New Testament that we need to follow it verbatim and not just pick and choose which parts we want to follow.
We are losing the battle in our nation. We need everyone to take up the cause of Christ and speak it to anyone we come in contact with. There will always be men that expect the women to be silent. However, the comments on this forum by women have been excellent, very well thought out and very beneficial. The only part that amuses me is that they teach men while saying women should not teach men. That part I take with a grain of salt but I must admit I am still learning from them. They are making me go to the Word to make sure I am not outside of His plan. However, I am pretty sure that God is not wanting to make out of our women today a 1st century woman. He wants them to be a Godly woman as was my mother-in-law who, by the way, cut her uncut hair of decades in her 70’s and actually wore a pair of pants. I guess I never thought I would see such a thing.
Now, on the other hand, I do believe He still wants the women to be modest and teach their daughters to dress modestly and be modest. The men also need to be modest. I guess I don’t believe a thousand dollar suit and a $100 haircut is necessary to preach the Gospel. There just may be a little too much vanity in some pulpits.
We must all go to the Word to seek God’s will. Please, no one should accept anything I say without going to Him in prayer and read and reread and reread God’s Word on the issue. Everyone should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Trust me, I tremble when I speak on this subject. I am not encouraging any woman to pastor a church. I am only saying to us that we should not judge the woman that says God has called her to preach His Word. How can we condemn the woman that gives her life for the calling? The woman has to know God’s voice. I will not judge her.
Still so much to learn,
Roy
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