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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Brother David,
Thank you for the above post. Some would not be a part of that church because of the woman minister.
There is a group of people that exists from the beginning of the church until now. These are the people that love the law of the land but love their Lord even more. There were many, many martyrs in the early church because the law demanded them to deny their Lord. We hear of the men but often we don't hear about the ladies. Today, that is changing. I'm sure you are all hearing of the great Christian exploits in the nation of China. The laws against Christian assemblies, etc. are not stopping many God-called individuals to go into that country and spread the good news about Jesus. And guess what - yep, you guessed it, many of these what we call today as missionaries are the ladies. I'm telling you some ladies are tougher than men. Stories coming from China are many about the ladies going into villages, preaching the Gospel, and in spite of great opposition winning many to Christ. Before long there will be more Christians in China than in any other nation in our world. Praise the Lord! There is a revival going on in that land and much of the credit has to be given to the female gender.
What do you think? Should there be female missionaries. Jesus told His disciples to go into the land heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead, etc. They rejoiced that even the demons responded to them. Only God could give them the power to do such a thing - none could do something like that on their own. That person would have to be a man ordained by God to see those kind of results. You can undoubtedly guess where I am going. Yep, those are the kind of results we are hearing back from China not only among males, but among females as well. In China they are called evangelists and many of them are women.
If someone is asking me to join a group to shut up the women and put them in their place, I cannot join. If someone is asking me to join a group that will pray for these leaders in China (male or female) for greater Holy Spirit power and demonstration of His Spirit as the glorious Gospel is being preached across that great land, that is the group I will join. What the Holy Spirit forbade the great Apostle Paul to do when he desired to go into Asia, He is now fulfilling through His calling today and some of that is through women.
I am going to tell of a beautiful young girl that used to be a cheerleader for our school. She fell in love with one of the most handsome young men you will ever meet. The young man is a wonderful young man - a youth minister at a church. When the beautiful young lady informed the wonderful Christian young man that she felt God was calling her to be a missionary in a foreign land like China, he had to reply that he didn't feel God's calling to be a missionary in a foreign land. What do you think? Is it possible that God was really calling this young lady to be a pastor's wife? (That is the calling of the young man). What did she do? She gave up her love for the wonderful young man to follow her calling to be a missionary.
I'm telling you that women are tough. I personally know what it feels like to feel outside of the law doing something you believe God is calling you to do. Back in the early 80's it was against the law in my state to homeschool your children. You could put your children in a Christian school but you could not homeschool them. My wife and I decided that God was calling us to not allow our children to be educated by those who believed God should not be a part of our educational system. Since we were poor, we could not afford a Christian school. We tried to get them in one but were not able. Our only choices were either to submit to that law and put them in the secular school system or step outside of the then state law and homeschool our children. It was the hardest thing we ever did. We were ridiculed by our overseers and peers. Later our homeschool would turn into a Christian school which was legal. But those early days were tough. I remember coming home (we were living in a church building) finding a strange car in the lot and know that was probably someone from the state ready to take away our children.
Let me tell you about a lady we knew from our same area. She came to the same conclusion that it was not God's will for her children to be educated by a secular system. However, she ran into greater problems than my wife and I did. She was taken to court for her decision. She lost at the county level but appealed to the Kansas State Supreme Court. She lost her battle at that level as well. She continued to homeschool in spite of this loss. Again, she was taken to court by the county attorney. This time she was going to lose her children. Rather than lose her children, she came to us. We were just getting started with our Christian school. We hired her to continue teaching and as a result she was allowed to continue teaching her children as well as others. I am so grateful she was able to avoid any jail time or lose her children. However, I am telling you this lady was tough. I as so grateful for all the tough men and women that against all opposition insisted that the Gospel of Jesus Christ go forward. I struggle with some guy in a plush office telling me how that God had not raised up women to be leaders. I am telling you about a world where so many men will run and hide the first time opposition to God's call arises. They will come up with more excuses why we should ignore God's call and be compliant with anything man has to say to us. For this reason, God has to raise up a woman to do the job. I know some women that are so much tougher than I am.
But, praise God, we men can glory in the tough guys through the ages that didn't want to but came to the conclusion that we must obey God rather than men. We have so much to be grateful for and these men (and women) are among the greatest reasons to be grateful.
Grateful for all the tough ones including women,
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Roy, you said, "My point is: sometimes women have to fulfill a role quietly behind the scenes because of our prejudices."
Many times this is so, but what if the fundamental principle out of which that prejudice arose was a divine order set by God. Not implying that the prejudice ideologies that came about were just, I'm simply saying that they sprang from something more significant. Backing up to your previous post now:
You discussed the woman who anointed Jesus with oil before the Passover account. That, to me, is a perfect example of a woman serving a man in an act of holy righteousness. It was more or less her duty as a woman to perform that anointing. As women we are called specifically to lift up our Godly men in support of their commissions, to magnify their good name, to foster their accomplishments, to anoint them and prepare them for success. You are right in that God has a purpose for us all. That purpose has been revealed throughout scripture. Women do hold a high office, one that promotes the success of men of God. We have a very important purpose to fulfill. God, His Self, ordained that purpose and it's up to us to put it to practice as God intends.
With that said, I will like to highlight that I also believe God will use women to perform duties normally ascribed to men. But as women and men of the flesh, we should strive to maintain the order of mankind the way God created it, with some exceptions along the way, recognizing when God has chosen to introduce a shift in the original pattern. Because, like I said, I do believe God occasionally injects modifications, but it should be left to Him to propose such shifts, and we humans should recognize them and accept them, but should not institute them, our selves. I believe often times God uses occasional shifts as a way to test our faith, to see if we will cling to intellectual laws or stand with Him through recognition of His individual operations. Please don't take that as though I'm saying God changes, because God's character does not change, but only that His maneuvers may change in accordance to His fixed character.
Glenda
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Glenda,
What you have said may very well be true. It makes much sense to me. I understand that I have so much to learn. This is one of those areas that I have not been able to figure out on my own. There is an order that seems right. It is obvious, however, that God will step outside of that order to accomplish His will. It seems to me, sometime, that God has an easier time of stepping outside of the box than we do. It is not that He breaks rules; it is just that He makes me think sometime that I just don't really understand His rule. Just when you think you've got Him figured out, He will do something like evangelize a nation using men and women as evangelists.
There are some things that I understand better than others. This is not an area that I have gotten figured out.
Not yet figured it all out,
Roy
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Bless you brother, Roy. I'll have you know, your writings here on AAG inspire me. There are many areas that I have yet to figure out, and you help many here to see things they might not have seen or understood before. So, thank you for that.
Can I just add this? You wrote, "It seems to me, sometime, that God has an easier time of stepping outside of the box than we do." To this I say, maybe that's because we as mere men and women are not to step out of the order given us unless God, His self, uniquely instructs us to. God, being not contained in any box, has total claim to His created order and can do whatever He pleases to it and within it.
In His love,
Glenda
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Amen to both of you Roy and Ginny.
Glenda you rock.
Roy you asked: >>What do you think? Should there be female missionaries.
Here are my thoughts.
Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians we apply what we learn from the word, to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church? In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this?
First of all, she should not be out there alone. She should be with her husband or at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men. Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women. Of course missionary work now these days has many meanings. Groups of young men and women go on mission work across the state lines or across the border and go help a well established church with all the commodities available, etc... Not speaking ill of such a beautiful endeavor, I am simply making a distinction between the many meanings of the word "Missionary." I am using and attaching the classical meaning of the word, almost synonymous with apostle. Breaking new ground.
Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, (Such was the case for Elizabeth Elliot, she was left alone to carry the work her husband was doing in Brazil after the people he was so happy to make contact with to evangelized murder him. She evangelized the natives that made her a widow) it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken.
:)
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David,
Would you agree that Lottie Moon had as much to do with what is going on in China as any man has had? Lottie Moon worked within the Southern Baptist Convention but carefully worked to change some of the established rules within in the church. This may or may not have been God's highest will. As I have mentioned to Ginnybee, this is an area I am no authority on (actually, I realize I am no authority in any area.) However, I am able to read His Word concerning women in the church and see what is happening around the globe. This is one I do not have figured out. Why would God anoint women for ministry if it were not His intention to use them? Is it only because there aren't enough men willing?
However, the Word is our authority and I have no intention of changing anything or discrediting anything. I wonder if we are missing something.
Still learning,
Roy
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Roy -
On page five I give my personal convictions about this topic and it is similar to yours.
I will cut and paste a piece of it here and add a bit more to it:
My point is that we don’t always have to do everything according to the perfect ideal standard, because sometimes the situation throws us a curve ball! So to sum it up, I think that it is unscriptural to have women as leaders in the church, and at the same time I believe sometimes and in some situations it is the right thing to do, though it is unscriptural.
That might sound contradictory, but I live in a confused world where a lot of things can happen. I think if we try to make the scripture say differently we will have a hard time doing it. If we try to say it was only the culture of the time, that will lead us to some verses that are clearly not based on culture and it will lead us to conclude that we can disregard many other passages because we can argue they are "just cultural" as well. That is not to say there are not some verses that are set in culture. But I think the safest course is to take the plain meaning (plain in my opinion anyway, I know others disagree) of scripture, but then realize that sometimes God does things outside of the general principles.
Lottie Moon was a great blessing to the church. God is always able to do according to His good pleasure with any of us (male or female). We are the clay He sets the rules not us. We are to simply be able to recognize His voice, but we can't make Him speak.
This is what I see my beloved Roy. God has set an order for the home and church. Throughout history we have seen woman do wonderful things for the kingdom of God.
Is it because these women have a great passion for God and compassion for the lost, which is the accomplice for them to ignored and justify their zeal for ministry positions that are not meant for them to fill? I personally do not think so. I do think that they have a great passion for the Lord and compassion for the lost. That I do think.
(I am sure some woman do enjoy the high of being in leadership positions, but I doubt that was the case for a Servant such as Lottie Moon)
We men have fallen so short and God's word must continue to go forward. God has raised up women to fill in the gap we have left open and some women are doing an awesome job. Homes are being led by women throughout the world and they are doing a great job, because we have done such a horrible job. We have abused the leadership God has assigned to us and many have run from their callings, because sin has them enslaved. Been there and done that myself, so I am not saying what I am saying with a "holier than thou" attitude. If anything with a broken heart.
I think woman who do feel call to Ministry do well to understand these truths. That is my take on it bro. I think is obvious that if we (men) were doing what we have been called to do at home and at church our world would be a better world today, but unfortunately there has been a need for woman to lead both at home and at church.
We live in a fallen world where we all fall short of the Glory of God and God doesn't destroy us. He knows the end from the beginning. He uses those vessels that set themselves apart from sin – simple as that.
Blessings
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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on
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Hi Glenda ,I will apologise now ,for not sticking to the context of the discussion as such ,but when i get motivated to do something ,i just go and do it ,I just pray that it is God who is doing the motivating ,and that He is putting me to the best use He can ........blessings in Christ to you sister ....faithfully.. ..Andrew.
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Hello Andrew... No need to apologize. I'm honored by your input.
In His love,
Glenda
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Everyone,
I'd like to share a story..I'm sure we all have one on this topic.....
I was recently in Nova Scotia visiting for a couple weeks. I met the local Minister ( a lady) who oversees 3 churches. She is the one who is in charge of these communities. She rotates between the 3, and they have built their community around these 3 churches. All the people rotate every 3 weeks between the churches. I had the opportunity to go on a boat ride with her, so I asked her why she decided to become a minister. She told me that she has always had a fascination with God, and this was a calling that He had put on her life. She couldn't 'not' do it. She said she was raised catholic and she left the catholic church because she was not able to become a priest. When she was in seminary, she continually received confirmation that she should be teaching God's Word. She is a minister in the anglican church now. She loves what she does....God has blessed her where she is as far as I could tell.
Blessings, Carla
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