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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Sharon,
No problem exists in the Churches that practice the biblical doctrines. Plenty of work for both man and woman. No such problem exists in the protestant churches. No one has said there is such a problem except you.
We specified, I asked Ginny what she meant by her question and we agreed that it was referring to Pastors and deacons.
I do not need to look upon any church to practice the truth, not that we do not learn from good examples, but I will search scripture and ask the Lord to guide to all truth and also help me practice the truth.
Again you speak of a problem that does not exist in the Protestant churches.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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avid,
No offense to Sharon but this response is due to an extreme lack of information. I would be curious what offices that the catholic church has that others do not. Are you talking about education, social services, administrative positions, what? It may come as a surprise, but churches other than the catholics are out doing the work of God.
Charitable services are great in the Protestant churches. I think, Sharon, you have been mislead in your thinking. In our world there are around 2 billion people that identify themselves as Christian. Approximately one billion of those are catholics which is quite a few. However at the present time the Protestant church has caught the Catholic church. And, at the present time there is a great surge among the Evangelicals and Pentecostal churches around the world. At one time the catholics could claim that a higher percentage of their people were regularly attending church. That day has come and gone. There is a crisis in the Catholic Church due to a number of reasons the most recent probably the scandals that have plagued the church.
Have you heard of the Salvation Army and the Red Cross? These are just a couple of Christian organizations that have been founded by very devoted Christians.
Sharon, I am very happy that you love your church. However, you are making baseless claims. If a woman is truly called of God, she can find her place in the protestant church as well.
The truth is, Sharon, you have big problems in your house. You have a crisis as we do. It would be better if we weren't so divided and realized we need one another. You better get those generators fired up because current trends in the Catholic Church indicate they might need a boost.
The truth is, the Holy Spirit has been replaced by organization in much of the church. We need revival. I pray that revival spreads in all of our churches. We all need some extra power.
Please don't be offended by my post. God bless you.
Roy
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Hey All,
Here is a quick quiz question: Who can name the fastest growing church around the world today? Is this off the question? I guess so. I'm sorry. However, if you answer, I would like to know why you believe it is the fastest growing church. God bless you all.
Roy
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My reply is this: As far as America is concerned, the fastest growing religious groups are agnostics and atheists. Christians need to join together in prayer. The reason for the growth of agnosticism: mostly due to secularism in the schools, press and Hollywood. Christians, I agree it is fun to discuss our differences but we need to highlight that which could join us all together and that is a fervent love for Jesus Christ. We need more women as well as men to get fired up in Christian service and love.
Lord, please bless all your people,
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Hi Sharon.. I think women primarily are instructed against claiming leadership positions in the church because greatly understood was that women will naturally gravitate toward developing control over men and that in general, men can be more easily persuaded/tempted by a woman than visa versa, which obviously presents an inequitable problem (Jus’ my opinion). For sake of illustrating, however, if you reexamine your last sentence, you might notice a bit of that natural condescension showing through. All I ask is that you consider this POV.
GBU
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Permalink Reply by John Lemmon on
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Hi there!
This is my first post on this site & hopefully this subject is not yet dead, as I see there are some points that have not been presented in this never-ending discussion about women in ministry, & particulalry holding office in the church.
This may provide more food for thought.
Firstly, we know in Christ there is no distinction between people as we see in Gal 3:28 which also adds that in Christ there is, "...neither male nor female..." If this is so, would God make distinction about an office bearer in the Church when Christ has broken down all barriers? Now before anyone jumps on me, please read on as there is more.
Next, consider this...what is the single most important teaching of Christianity that separates it from all other religions? Surely it is the resurrection of Christ. Now look at who it was that first preached the resurrection after Christ had died & risen. It was Mary Magdalene and the other Mary who were instructed by the angel in the garden to "...go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen..." (Matthew 28:7). We see also that after he had risen the first person he appeared to was not a man, but Mary Magdalene and she went & told his disciples, but they did not believe her (Mark 16:9-11). Ha then appeared to two disciples who were alking in the country who also testified to the resurrection and likewise were not believed. (Mark 16:12-13). Finally we see Jesus appearing to the eleven and what did he do? He did not applaud them but upbraided them because they did not believe the testimony of those who had seen him after he had risen, and the first of these was a woman.
Now if God entrusted the most important ministry of Christianity, being to testify to the resurrection of Jesus Christ to a woman, is it unreasonable to consider that a woman could or should hold a high office in the church?
Let's look further into this. In this discussion people always quote 1 Timothy 2:12 which says, "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men..." and yet Jesus himself gave the very first teaching ministry on the most important subject in Christianity to a woman. So how do we reconcile these apparently opposing positions? Quite simply. A woman cannot have authority over a man, but she can have authority WITH a man. In Christ we are all equal and are brothers and sisters in Him. We do not lord it over each other but work side by side together to advance the truth of the gospel, & this is what I believe was happening in the examples above.
Finally there is a much overlooked scripture that goes to the heart of the matter of whether a woman can hold office. In the second letter of John verse 1 we see John addresses his letter to, "The elder to the elect lady and her children..." (2 John 1:1). But when we look at the Greek we see a literal translation of this says, "The elder elect lady..." The words "to the" are not in the Greek and this significantly changes the meaning of this text. In essence John is calling the lady an "elect elder" showing she holds a high position in the church.
Anyway...I know this is a complex & much debated issue and as someone else mentioned in this thread, it is a hot topic across much of the church. However unless the fullness of the scripture is reviewed & assessed we can never come to a position of truth on this matter. In the first instance I am worried this may confuse some people, but I look forward to any thoughts anyone else may have & I hope this will add to everyones knowledge of this issue.
Yours in Christ,
John
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Hello John -
Welcome bro. Actually we have touched on much of what you shared and would like your thoughts on what I previously shared here and now I am posting below:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28).
Men are not better than women. We just have different God given responsibilities.
That verse ((Gal. 3:28) should not be used though to back up women pastors.
Some believe that since the verse says there is neither male nor female in Christ, then the offices of elder, bishop, pastor, etc. should not display gender differences -- since there is neither male nor female.
But
The problem with this interpretation is that the context of Galatians 3:28 is dealing with salvation, not church office qualifications. Contextually, Paul says in Galatians 3:24 that we are justified by faith and that we have been clothed with Christ (v. 27). In 3:29 he speaks about us belonging to Christ. So, there is nothing in the context to signify that women can be elders or pastors.
A closer look at Galatians 3:28 will reveal that Paul is showing there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. This is important because the Jewish people understood the Messiah was coming only for them (Matt. 15:24). Paul negates the distinction of nationality regarding salvation as he also negates the distinction of slave and free, male and female. He says, "you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Blessings
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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David,
I think the topic of discussion is not should women be pastors and elders.but can women hold top ranking positions in the church.
There is a difference.
Sharon.
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Hi Sharon,
I'm not sure what you mean by "top ranking positions in the church?" Apart from the ministries that God gave the church in Eph 4:11, the only appointed positions were elders (or bishops which is the same thing in Greek) and deacons. Anything more than these roles are creations of men and have no scriptural basis.
Can you explain what you mean by "top ranking positions" if it is not the above? Thanks.
Yours in Christ,
John Lemmon
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Hi Sharon,
I asked a question earlier as to what you considered to be the "top ranking positions in the church." It seems you are asking a similar question of David too (ie. what is a top...mid...low ranking position).
Under the New Testament there are two groups of "positions" & I use the term quite loosely. The first group is in the area of ministry which are the gifts God gave to the church as detailed in Ephesians 4:11. The gifts were that some would be apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors or evangelists for the express purpose of building up the body of Christ through these ministeries. The church cannot appoint people into these ministeries, nor can a person take one of these ministeries as they are the gifts of God. Certainly in the church today there are people called "pastors" who have been appointed as such by the church & typically through the completion of a bible college course, but this is not the same as the pastoral gift given by God.
As to the positions that ARE appointed by the church, there are only two under the New Covenant teachings...elders and deacons.
Now even those who operate in the roles of elders and deacons are no greater or lesser than the rest of the church for in Christ we are all equals. That is a hard thing for some people to accept.
As for other roles in the Church, other than elders or deacons, you have to ask the question why they are necessary and why were they put in place in the first place. Do we need senior pastors, arch deacons, arch bishops, abbots, reverends and a pope or whatever other role within the church you can think of? There is no limitation in the bible on the number of elders or deacons that can exist within the church, so if the church expands and there are people capable of doing the role according to the guidelines in scripture, why not appoint more elders or deacons?
Establishing hierarchies in the church was not the point of the message of Christ. The point was that we all are a co-equal brother/sisterhood. Jesus said in Matthew 20:25-28:
"25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave;
28 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
It is not appropriate within the church to have authority structures set up but rather as Jesus taught us, the greatest in the church shall be the servant. The point of both eldership & deacons is they are servants of the church.
As for being extreme, why do you think so? The bible is ultimately the basis for our faith & our belief and is the final authority on all matters pertaining to the faith. If things are introduced into the church which have no biblical basis then they should not be accepted. In my opinion church hierarchies did not exist in the original New Covenant church and so have no place in the modern church either. Regardless of whether the positions are held by men or women.
I hope that you are not offended by these comments as they are not meant to be.
Your brother in Christ,
John Lemmon
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John
Sorry, for some reason my response came off rather snarky. I am so sorry. It not my intention to be rude. Thank you for your explanation. I think I see where you are coming from now.
Your sister-in-Christ (who has a head-ache)
Sharon.
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Hi Sharon,
No problems. Hope the headache settles down. One of the challenges we always have with sites like these is it is easy to misunderstand and be misunderstood. Talk to any communications expert & they'll tell you that the major part of communication comes through inflections in the voice & body language...which is a bit hard to do in writing.
I sometimes worry what people will think of the stuff I write as I can sound a little blunt sometimes & thus you will often see me say that I hope I don't offend.
I see your position as one where you are seeking to understand & this is a tough & prickly subject unfortunately. Put it in the hands of the Lord & he will lead you. "Ask & it will be given" was His promise.
All the best.
Your brother in Christ,
John Lemmon
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