WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

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Permalink Reply by Martha on January 14, 2011 at 11:23am

When my husband and I met 9 yrs ago, his basic Christian background was more Calvinistic and mine more Arminian. We have since found the middle road via the scripture "IF you love me you WILL keep my commandments" You don't have to worry about where you're at with Jesus if you know you are seeking daily to live for Him. If you live in habitual sin w/o any sense of conviction, well, let's just say, there is something seriously amiss there. I know and so does my husband because prior to meeting one another we were both living against God and his commandments. I have never been happier or more fulfilled and at peace in ANY relationship than I have been for the past 8 yrs of marriage.  God blessed us because we are living in obedience to Him. We have free will, yes, but we are also assured of our salvation because we ABIDE in Him. The questions come when we don't ABIDE.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on January 10, 2010 at 1:12am

Arminianism-Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

Calvinism-Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement

Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation

David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas, are Baptist ministers in Little Rock, Arkansas. Their contrast of the Five Points of Calvinism with the Five Points of Arminianism is one of the clearest and most concise

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on January 10, 2010 at 1:13am

Arminianism-The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted

The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Calvinism- The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace

In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas, are Baptist ministers in Little Rock, Arkansas. Their contrast of the Five Points of Calvinism with the Five Points of Arminianism is one of the clearest and most concise

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on January 10, 2010 at 1:13am

Arminianism-Falling from Grace

Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

Calvinism- Perseverance of the Saints
All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

According to Arminianism:

Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.


According to Calvinism:

Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas, are Baptist ministers in Little Rock, Arkansas. Their contrast of the Five Points of Calvinism with the Five Points of Arminianism is one of the clearest and most concise.

Permalink Reply by Chas Jones on March 29, 2010 at 5:44pm

God is eternal, without any beginning or any end. God's Will is eternal as is His Knowledge. With God their is no order of occurrence or attribute, all are eternal. I believe once we grasp this truth our understanding of God and of our salvation becomes much clearer and easier to accept. God's Word teaches that from Adam and Eve, following the Fall and sins entrance into our world, that all (except Jesus) have sinned and are born dead in their trespasses and sin. Without God's Divine intervention we all would remain dead in those trespasses and sins. Before the foundation of the world was laid, God settled the matter of my salvation. To claim that "God looked forward divinely to discern my decision," and planned accordingly is I believe in error. God is the Author and Finisher of my faith and my salvation. Even though I was born dead in trespasses and sin I was still accountable to God. All merit eternal damnation. God, out of Love, Grace, Mercy and many other of His Divine attributes Chose to Save some. To me, this is clearly taught in the Scriptures, and I must therefore accept this.

For those who continue to struggle with these truth's I welcome civil, prayerful discussion.

In Christ, Chas

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 30, 2010 at 12:11am

Thank you for the loving attitude you have shared with. I am in agreement.

blessings

Permalink Reply by Tia Darling Martin on June 23, 2010 at 9:30pm

I believe that God has a foreknowledge of our choices and actions, but He does not CONTROL our choices and actions. He does not interfere wherever He is not asked to. (This is why He commands that we ask, that we may receive). The asking is the key that opens the door allowing God to enter into our lives. Without that door being opened all He can do is stand at it and Knock, or "call" out to us, until finally, some answer the call, while others do not. He knows who will answer, (the chosen) but He does not force the choice out of us. It is our own free will, to use the key (By asking Him in) and opening our door to God.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 2, 2010 at 4:23am

Tia,

I am pondering on your response. I am thinking about Him standing at the door and knocking. Let me give an example: if someone comes to my door and knocks, I answer it. However, if I am in a deep sleep and don't hear the knocker, I don't answer it. I am wondering about this knocking business. The Bible tells us that not only are we in a deep sleep, we are dead in our sins. How can a dead person hear that knocking? I am going to give a five verse response:

Eph 2:1-6
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins , 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. NIV

How can that dead person respond to Christ. The Scripture also tells us in Romans 3 that there is no one that seeks after God. I think it is just too easy for us to take a little credit here like this: "I willed to come to Christ and others did not. Therefore He chose me and not them." Could it be that it was even more than just your will? I am guessing by your response and you David as well that you believe in prevenient grace. That is an Armenian understanding from ages past that God reveals His grace to you and gives you the option of acceptance or rejection. John Wesley was a proponent of the idea as well. Augustin believed you could not resist this prevenient grace but Wesley felt you could resist it. Much of the Christian church today agrees with Wesley on this issue - thus, the free will.

The Scripture declares that we are saved by grace. This we know. But what does that mean. I personally believe that puts it all on God and none on me. I don't believe I can take any credit for my salvation. Yes, the Scripture says, "Whosoever will," and then says that the will comes from God.

I agree that we will never figure it all out. However, let's don't try to make Him out to be fair what we consider fair in our own eyes. Maybe we don't understand fairness.

David, you said God chooses on the basis of foreknowledge. That is absolutely right. However, do we really understand the concept of foreknowledge here in the 21st century. Does the term 'foreknowledge" actually mean "fore-loving"?

I don't think we should discount the idea that God has another criteria other than just our free will for saving us from our sins. That is close to saying that we choose Him rather than He chooses us.

I hope this response is loving enough. I noticed you are not getting a lot of takers on this subject. It is a wonderful subject that goes to the heart of our relationship with God. I haven't been on it in several years since most people just avoid talking about it. However, if some want to have a go at it, I think there are some wonderful deep truths in the Scripture you have presented that all of us need to come to grip with.

I probably should mention that I do lean more to the Calvinistic position which puts me in the great minority of His Body.

Praise be to God and to His plan and purpose,
Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 2, 2010 at 6:49am

David,

I just noticed that it took you four months to answer one post. I am thinking that probably some have been deleted. Anyway, I have noticed that you put a lot into this forum to begin with and got very little response. That is probably because I wasn't around. This is definitely an area that many do not feel qualified to get involved with. However, I can't think of anything more valuable than discussing who we are in Christ.

I am convinced that we don't know the basis of God's election. The idea that it is just God's precognition of what our decision would be doesn't cut it for me. To think that He chose me because He knew I would accept His wooing gives me too much credit. The people that are writing on "How Much of the Old Testament Should We Throw Out" or something like that continually put the responsibility of salvation upon themselves. "If I do, He will" type of thing.

What if God chose us based on something else? You wrote of Jacob and Esau. Why did God choose Jacob over Esau? If God did have another criteria for electing us over someone else and we thought it was simply because He had precognition of our future decisions, we would be missing out on something almost too wonderful to even imagine. Did God choose Jacob over Esau because He knew Jacob would be a better boy than Esau? Obviously not, Esau was probably the better boy. Whey did God choose David over Saul? Did God know David would be a better boy than Saul? No way! Some might say it was because He knew David would repent of his sins and Saul would not. Maybe so, but I think it is more than that.

I think we give ourselves far too much credit for our own salvation. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." I think I would be very careful giving myself too much credit for my salvation.

Faith is the basis of our salvation but why do I have faith? What did I do to get this faith? I believe in Him and therefore was made His child.

This we know - we are His elect. That is wonderful. We may not know exactly why we are His elect but we are. If you are a pretty good guy you might think it is because of that. If you are very submissive, you may think it is because of that. If you are humble, contrite, etc., you may give yourself some credit. But, what if you are none of that? You say, "God gives grace to the humble." Maybe that is it. Perhaps if you think you are a worthless evil person, maybe He can work with you. He did seem to do better with the prostitutes and tax collectors.

Let me say this: don't worry about what you were. He is going to take you and make you into the image of His Son. Wow! Even that is Him. I guess I am still stuck in this rut of having to give Him 100% credit for my salvation. I have yet to find one thing that I have contributed.

I love Him so much and am so grateful to Him,
Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 3, 2010 at 1:46am

Roy

I too lean more to the Reformed/Calvinist theology than Arminian. I tell you what beloved.

We can do the tulip on the forums one doctrine of grace at a time. I am extremely familiar with Arminianism so I can play the advocate of that theology. What do you think?

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 3, 2010 at 4:55am

David,

You are very busy on this site. I think a discussion like that would be very valuable but I would like to see several people involved. It sounds like you and I have the same theology. I grew up Armenian only to later realize that the Calvinistic system made more sense to me. I have a very difficult time giving any credit to myself for my salvation. You have probably picked that up in my posts.

I personally think many would benefit by this study. However, I know how controversial it can be. I leave it in your hands.

Your brother,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Robert Smyth on October 14, 2010 at 3:05am

Hi David,

i caught this thread last night, but did not read it all, have spent the last hour or so reading through the 2 pages of theology and i can see why now God said to Adam & Eve don't eat of the tree of knowledge. I hope my following response does not offend but this theology is new to me and this as a christian is my reaction to trying to understand it.

Firstly i'd like to say my minds frazziled by tring to understand and grasp the interpretation of this docterine. Anyway as its getting cold out and as we draw near to winter my surggestion is that we gather up all books and liturature on Arminianism & Calinism and start a great big fire, and as there seems to be a lot and will take a while to burn we might as well toast a few muffins and may i surggest read the Bible while this so called christian theology burns.

My thinking behind this is that man thinks to much, i don't believe as a christian i am called to work out how or why my God thinks, his reasoning behind what is detailed in the Bible or an overall massive analyisis of biblical teachings. The bible covers a great period of time and the actions and incidents of that time often relate to that time, its like a history lesson. As a christian i believe very simply that I have heard the word of God, i have believed and am through the struggle of my life trying with the Grace of God to live following his commandments and the teachings of Jesus. I am also trying in everyway possible where the situation arises to help my fellow man in their lives and showing in my walk of life that God's grace of love and belief in Jesus is evident in my life.

I am also aware satin is ever present in my life, trying to undermine my life and causing me to sin and detracting from the life i want to live. Each day i pray for the grace of God on my life and those around me and that i may be used by God for good in the lives of my fellow man.

I have 5 cats and twice a day they know they get fed, and when i go into the room they get fed in they run about looking for food, this is instintive and they often do it when i go into the room and its not feeding time. But i have never saw them ever sitting down discussing why i feed them some days chicken some days fish, they never seem to feel my feeling for them is any different because of what i feed them, they just eat the food. The bible scriptures are complicated and over thousands of years open to mans interpretation, and this is why we find christianity & the world in the mess it is in today. The theology detailed by David is of man and his interpretation of the Bibles teaching, therefore it is not of God, i feel if as christians we need a more simple approach to the bible and our realtionship with God, His grace and our reason for the life He has given us, mankind would be in a happier place. Satin has the power to distroy man and ruin lives, instead of trying to work out how and why God thinks or what His actions mean, why not just live peacfully in His Grace and bring the love of Jesus to your fellow man.

May God bless your day

Robert

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