All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Andrew-
Thank you for posting this article. I will post it in another discussion as well. It says pretty much what I tried to convey here and elsewhere.
This article shows the difference between what is important to discuss and what is not. The topic of this discussion for instance is a valid discussion and it does not fall into foolish discussions about the Law. The topic whether woman can be pastors is a very good topic to discuss; it deals with God's will and order (perfect will) for His church. The article also touches on a very important truth. Is not the actual discussing a topic that makes it foolish, BUT THE MANNER IN WHICH WE DISCUSS IT. There are secondary and primary issues. We are not flexible on the primary ones as the article states and I have often alluded to. But we can have difference of interpretation on secondary ones and should not divide due them.
Here on AAG by God’s grace we have been able to discuss many important Primary and Secondary topics without falling into foolishness. Praise God for Greg and the moderato’s leadership and intersection. Of course those trying to teach false doctrines will not agree with my statement.
By: J. Hampton Keathley, III Share Caution Regarding Certain Kinds of Discussions
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the law, because they are useless and empty. 3:10 Reject a divisive person after one or two warnings. 3:11 You know that such a person is twisted by sin and is conscious of it himself.
Sound or healthy teaching is one of the prominent themes of the pastoral epistles. Healthy teaching is teaching that is in line with the apostolic tradition and God’s special revelation through His inspired writers (Luke 1:2; Rom. 6:17; 1 Cor. 11:2; 15:1-4; 2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 2:21; 2 Pet. 3:15-17; Jude 3, etc.). At the heart of this teaching is the gospel truth of the person and work of the Savior (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Tit. 2:11-14; 3:4-7). But the reason for this emphasis found over and over again in the pastorals is that only such healthy teaching is profitable and forms the foundation for a healthy faith and productive Christian living. Anything else is not only futile, but dangerous (cf. 1 Tim. 1:4 with 1:6 and 4:6 with 4:7 and 6:3 with 6:4-5; see also 2 Tim. 1:13; 2:23; 4:3-4; Titus 1:9, 13; 2:1-2, 8).
Thus, having stressed the profitability of teaching that is centered in the person and work of the Savior (3:4-8), the apostle once again warns against the futility and worthlessness of the perverted (the non-biblical) opinions of man. Titus, the Cretans, and all of us will come in contact with false teachers and their teaching. While we are to be able to defend the faith and give a reason for the hope within us, we must not get involved in the wrong kind of discussions. Thus, Paul first warns against some of the various kinds of false teaching that Titus and all believers will face (vs. 9) and then gives abbreviated directions for handling these false teachers themselves (vss. 10-11).
Foolish controversies.” “Controversies” is zetesis from the verb zeteo, “to seek, search after, inquire into.” Zeteo was used of philosophical inquiry in classical Greek as well as in the New Testament (see 1 Cor. 1:22; Acts 17:27). But it was also used of seeking God in prayer (Matt. 7:7-8), of seeking first the kingdom of God (Matt. 6:32-33), and of seeking things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. The noun zetesis could mean “investigation, inquiry” (see Acts 25:20) and while one might think the use of this term in the pastoral epistles (1 Tim. 6:4; 2 Tim. 2:23; Tit. 3:9) would denote the investigation of religious and theological problems in search of the truth, it is best understood to have a different meaning in the pastorals.188 As suggested by our context and its use for philosophical investigation, this word occurs in the New Testament with the idea of “controversy, dispute, debate” with the emphasis not on seeking the truth, but on the manner in which it is done. In John 3:25; Acts 15:2, 7, and in the pastorals, the stress seems to be on an exchange of words rather than a genuine search for truth. With this in mind, there is little wonder that Paul stresses time and again that discussions are useless, unprofitable, and incompatible with faith and productive Christian living.
Paul described “controversies” as foolish because this adjective describes one of the results of the doctrinal error being promoted. “Foolish” is the moros, “foolish, stupid,” from which we get our term moron. No matter how brilliant or sophisticated or scholarly the proponents may appear, such discussions are foolish because they fail to seek the truth or heed the clear teachings of Scripture. As a result, these kinds of discussions become occupied with nonsense “like the problem whether Lot’s wife as a pillar of salt, or one who has risen from the dead, will make unclean according to the laws of uncleanness through contact with the dead.”189
The entire article is well worth a read and can be found at:
http://bible.org/seriespage/final-instructions-and-greetings-titus-...
Blessings family
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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on
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David ,the ball has been belted back and forth in this discussion ,and so many others I see here that at the end of the day has it gotten any thurther than off the court its been belted on ,have we really gotten any further than where we first started ,I think not ,or have we fell behind from when we first started ?.When I see people get so worked up,with things they are trying to get across ,that at times you can sense it in their writing ,and or they just get so fed up that they decide to leave the site alltogether ,and I know that I and others have had a job to get people to stay ,is it any wonder that Titus3:8,9 are such important words to be acknowledged,and why God has included this in the scriptures.It makes me sad to know there is so much good work to be done out there and people waste their own time and others ,chasing questions that have been about for aeons .If we instead concentrate on just reading His word and seek the Truth within ,then He will fill us with His spirit and let us know what we need to know,and when we need to know it,and as He guides us in our journey, that is when we will start achieving real things for Him,cause it really is all about Him and not about our own foolish pride and vanity .Let us work together to rebuild His kingdom and to win as many souls back by sowing seeds as we can ,you are a very smart man David ,use your ability and your gift to ,as Oswald Chambers put it (achieve your Utmost ,for His Highest)........I am praying for more strength in your journey,and may God our Father bless you mightily ........Andrew.
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Thank you beloved -
I like your post very much - is a great reminder to anyone that has fallen into error (Pride, desire to argue scripture etc...) when discussing these issues, that is all about JESUS AND DOING. Let us be doers and not just hearers the word admonishes us.
I will be redundant here on something I have said before. We are different members with different God given purposes. We can discuss all this matters and still be doers of the word. I do not think I seen many people leave this site for as long as I been here who are healthy Christians. I have seen A LOT, I MEAN A LOT OF FALSE TEACHERS AND FALSE PROPHETS try to come in and teach nonsense. Praise God for the men and Women of God that are not tolerant of such garbage.
This topic is an important topic and your reminder is a blessing for those who may fall into only fellowshipping through this means. We must be doers and not just hearers. We should not use this means only to fellowship when we have the ability to fellowship in a local church. I am extremely involve in my church, but have decided to be here on my spare time.
Some of us are able to get into these discussions and truly enjoy them. I love these discussions and see nothing wrong, not one thing wrong within all that has been posted here. I am sure many got educated on the subject. At the very least they know why others believe what they believe. Titus was referring to a complete different type of issues involving false teachers.
What I have learn so far when others have express what you have above is that we all definitely view the posts differently. I never get offended :) if anything I crack myself up and laugh out loud when I read some of the replies, while others might be reading the same post and see exclamation points everywhere. THE TONE THEY ASSIGNED TO THE POST IS A HEAVYand RUDE ONE (not saying you). OHHH and God forbid we use capital letters haahaahaha because we are yelling then. haahaha ohhh man family chill. Relax enjoy the Christian life. Take a vacation, no not to Hawaii, but a vacation to purity land. Let your heart be pure, so when dealing with others you always think the best of them.
Ohhhhh it is good to be in the Lord. The Joy of my Lord is my strength. These discussions are beautiful. Can they become a bit heated of course they are discussions. We are touching on peoples personal beliefs. The world says "Do not discuss religion or politics ohhh yeah or sports if you do not want to end up fighting" well - we are not the world. I encourage you not to read discussions that you personally might find futile, but I am sure many are learning from them. Skip over those discussions that you might find offensive and get busy practicing what you have shared above and so beautifully reminded us of. Only click into those discussions you feel will edify you and ignore the others.
Others love these discussions and find great benefit on them. This forums offer us the opportunity to learn so much, but not so we can stay in front of the computer arguing, but so we can share it and live it. I could be sleep or watching a movie or studying and praying some more, but here I am to worship God in the many different ways He has made available for us.
Great post Andrew but I see nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with these discussions. The forums where created for that specific purpose. I really admire all the participants’ great effort (a great exercise on self control) to discuss all issues in love and yeah sometimes things get hairy, but praise God in a community of thousands love always wins.
Thank you for your kind words. I am very involved in ministry. I just chose not to talk about it because what I do for the Lord is not for me to boast on, but for the Lord. And thought I would not be boasting about my calling and responsibilities some may take it as such, so I keep that to myself. You have given us a great reminder and I will take it a step further and say to our family to please do not allow these discussions to be your only source of fellowship if you have the means to be part of a local congregation. We are blessed to have AAG. I am not familiar with any other site like this one except for the site my own fellowship has, but I am so blessed by this site. Let us keep on pressing on talking about everything pertaining to God and Godliness. Loving each other and above all being doers of the word and not just hearers or debaters of it hahahha.
Love you Andrew.
Note - you are a pretty smart guy yourself bro. :)
Ohhhh haahahaha I knew you had placed the link to try to tell us that this discussion is futile hahahaha and I thought I would throw a monkey wrench on your intentions haahahaha I bet you were like- that knuckle head hahaahaha took it and made something else out of it hahahaaha ohhhh man – I love it! Hahaaha hey bro just cracking myself up here – I pray you are not offended at my silly sense of humor
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David ,the healthy christians who leave this site will go on and do healthy things for God ,isnt it the unhealthy ones that we should be most concerned for.And no im not offended at all by your last quip,believe me if you dont have a sense of humour working in shearing sheds ,you wont last long at the game at all and if you do ,the work quickly becomes a long slow and arduous drag ,that makes it so hard to get out of bed for .Monkey wrenches are very useful tools haha ,but ther're best left for the jobs they were made for....................we all keep growing Dave , Gods speed .......Andrew.
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Amen Andrew.
This site has specific purposes for its existence. It is not a place to come and argue for the sake of arguing.
One of the main purposes of this site is to give new Christians a safe place to grow. This site gets more than its share of those who want to teach (only teach) not learn or grow their false doctrines. That will not be tolerated by administration who has posted a statement of faith and a member agreement. Christians that differ in Secondary issues are welcome here and guess what that includes the majority of the 80000 members. Christians who have unhealthy beliefs are also welcome and we pray with them and teach them in love why their belief is in error. Hard and delicate work, but the best investment ever. To edify the people of God. Some get mad ,but hey their freedom in Christ is at stake. Only the truth can set us free. However a false teacher should not be put up with after all means to reason with him have been exhausted. I have seen many members love them as they try to reason with them to no success and have watched the false teachers over and over and over again become offensive and rude. That cannot be and it will not be permitted by God's grace here. I thank God for this community with very specific purposes and volunteers/moderators that surf the discussion making sure we love and cherish one another. They are vigilant that this remains a healthy place for the babes in Christ to grow in to healthy mature warriors.
I am privilege to be a part of such a beautiful community wth such specific purposes. For as long as the Lord has me here I will put my effort to love God's people as best I can. Ohhhh and I have a double barrel shot gun for wolves in sheep’s clothing’s hahahaaha
Yes beloved - hopefully we all keep growing -
Love you.
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Hi again David, I was not going to respond to this post again as I dont want to fall prey to becoming part of an ongoing battle of words myself,this would really give the devil something to laugh about. I just noticed that Glenda said, that she was honoured by my imput,so I will just add this. I do realise that there is a good reason for discussions about scripture and the way we conduct our walk.I often come into contact with christians who are early in their walk or people who dont believe at all .When having a conversation with people like this ,it doesnt do me any good and especially not them for me to press points too much about any issues that come to hand ,the last thing we need is to put people thurther back in their walk,we need to know when to back off ,eat the humble pie and let them feel the way themselves for a while .It is a practice of patience ,gentleness and wisdom that wins hearts for Christ. I congratulate all the people who can add value to this site and do it in a way that makes others feel that they belong here.There will be times when some friction may arise ,we must be willing to listen to reason and be open to advice from others in such circumstances .David ,the moderators are here for good reason and if we see someone who is acting suspiciously here we should let them (the moderators) know about our concerns. I dont believe that a lot of the people who leave here are false prophets or teachers ,just people who are looking for answers to their questions.Having big words and heavy doctrine thrown at them,is not the most sensible approach.Everyone needs a bit of space and time to pick things up, if they are getting the same message from a few people ,we can only pray that common sense will prevail ,give them a bit of room ,there is plenty of good ears here who will listen to them,and words that will reassure them. Finally David ,I think that using a double barrelled shotgun to fight with is more in line with what a wolf would use for battle 2 Cor10:3-4,NIV For though we live in the world,we do not wage war as the world does.4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.On the contrary ,they have divine power to demolish strongholds. Being part of His flock ,I like to use His Word ,The Armour of God and prayer to overcome my battles.This will be my last post to you on this subject David ,I pray that you can understand my point.......In Gods service....Andrew.
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>>Finally David ,I think that using a double barreled shotgun to fight with is more in line with what a wolf would use for battle 2 Cor10:3-4,NIV For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Andrew - I was only kidding bro. would it make you feel better if I say sword of the Spirit as Eph. states. I was just kidding bro anyone that knows me knows I am forever kidding. Your indirect comment about using a shot gun makes me a wolf has the potential to really offend me, but I am not. I understand you are free to your opinion and that you obviously are not familiar with me enough to know that I and others in this site are extremly patient with those teaching false doctrines.
Everything else you have mentioned is right on and basic knowledge, the majority is aware of. We treat babes as babes and mature Christians as such. It is very easy to determine which is which by their impute. God also gives us discernment that gives us insight into the intentions of men at times. There is a whole bunch of stuff I ignore and don't even confront because is not a big deal, other I cannot stand by and not say something. I do not have to inform a moderator to do what I can do and I am call to do. The moderators and Greg are very aware of my posts and I have personally asked them to speak into my life and to pull my ears if I am ever tripping.
Good words bro. I do not know it all but I been exercising what you have stated for many, many years in my walk in Christ. Working as a pastor I have been dealing with the body of Christ for more than a decade.
Blessings bro. -
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Permalink Reply by Joleen on
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David,
There is a whole bunch of stuff I ignore and don't even confront because is not a big deal, other I cannot stand by and not say something.
david david david........ this statement hurts my feelings. There has been may times I have posted something and after reading this statement made me think or remember you didnt comment on a lot of them . I dodnt think one way or the other about why until now. Things may not seem important or a big deal to some but it does to the posters Im sure. Thanks a lot dv.
and Shearer and Pamela I havent kept up with this discussion at all I read the post listed on main page to see whats going on and found the back and forths between yall and david. I know its none my business so i wont say what i think about what you think of david but I do want to say that if it were not for these forums and the people like david who likes to share what they know here and who enjoys conversation with folks who even dont agree with each other. Some people know scripture well and then theres folks like me that dont know squat . I learn from these forums. I dont want any body to shut up... not even the people who I disagree with. If I went to church and found it to have a female preaching and if she was preaching the word I would be ok with it. But if her husband was sitting there and him also a preacher I would find it more comfortable him as leader. Why? Because I believe that the man should be the head of his family and of the church. Because of the scripture mentioned in this forum. Hope i dont offend anyone . I was reminded in a message about these forums and so here I am and Im reading and trying to be alert again and these forums help.. Im a slow very slow learner so when members keep post going here it sure helps me. -
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Janie, Janie, Janie,
Sorry sweetie and fellow knuckle head hahaha I did not mean my comment as you took it dear. But I do not mind explaining it. Hey you should know better. We been talking for a long time. Why you giving me a hard time woman? Me and you are cool cats hahaha watch out cat fight. J/K you, but here is what I meant.
I was simply talking about erroneous views and false doctrines. For instance if someone wants to believe they need to be baptized to be completely save, well that bothers me, all erroneous views of scripture bother me, because they hurt the people of God and keeps them in bondage to a lie. But normally I say nothing about that. However if the person is here teaching that, then as gently and loving as I know how I ask them to back it up scripturaly and (at times as was the case recently) after they have done that if I am asked by the Spirit of the Lord to let it go(Maybe I am confronting the person in many other areas and I do not want them to get hurt or mad, so I tip toe around them) I leave that discussion for another day. What is most important if for them to know I love them. so What i was talking about was leaving along some erroneous views of scripture, some are so minute that is not worth upseting someone. ohhh cause i know folks get upset when you asked them to back up their views with the bible instead of geting exited. I love it when someone askes me to back up my view. Ohhh i love it. Thank you for giving me the green light to teach - hallelujah!
But there are other things that I cannot see without saying something about it. Anyways if I don't - Greg or one of the moderators will. Since I am the only one without a life hahaaha I spend a lot of time here. hahaha.
Sowwweee my comment made you feel that way girl, but it was not meant as you took it.
Love you. Hope you feel better.
Hey - you are bolding stuff now - girl you are getting hip. cool.
So you love me that much that you want me to comment on your stuff huh? ok cool hahaahaha -
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Pamela -
I love you, but I think you are unjustly speaking of this discussion. Please, please show me where egos have flared and how it has gotten out of hand. What is going on here? Grandiose opinions, what?
EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THE DISCUSSION IS PERFECTLY OK WTIH IT AND WE CONTINUE TO LOVE EACH OTHER. THE HILARIOUS THING IS THAT OUTSIDERS TO THE DISCUSSION COME IN AS YOU HAVE AND MAKE SUCH COMMENTS. HAVE YOU GUYS EVEN READ THE EXCHANGES?
People if you have nothing to say about the discussion please do not start divisions between those who are enjoying the discussion. Please SHOW ME WHERE THE DISCUSSION IS UNHEALTHY AND FULL OF EGO. You are not helping to keep the discussion healthy; the topic is a delicate enough without having to deal with such comments as yours. Maybe everyone out there is enjoying the exchanges and a couple of folks step in to tell us how wrong the discussion has gone, what? Please show us all, how? Where?
>>there are other issues needing to be addressed.......
What is stopping you from addressing them then Pam. Knock yourself out sis and start a thousand discussions that are more important than this one?
In love- your brother and friend. I like caps - not yelling :)
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Hey Pam -
I reread my messages to you and felt I needed to comment again and apologize to you for being so direct and not gentle. You are dear to me and I never want to hurt anyone. That is the last thing I want. Anyways - Sowwee beautiful and thank you for not coming back and biting my head off. I guess you know me by now and you know I love you and that there is no malice in my heart through these exchanges. You are a blessing sis. Thank you for your patience. GBY You know your boy is a bit loco hahaha
Chao!
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