Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 27, 2010 at 6:47am

David,

I think I align with this system more that classical dispensationalism. I think constant revising of our system is good as it indicates we are studying and growing in His grace. As I study I reserve the right to change my mind. I am thrilled with this study. It drives you to His Word. What was He really saying? I look at people like RC Sproul who is not a dispensationalist but perhaps the greatest theologian of our day. Before D. James Kennedy died, he was my very favorite preacher. I never missed a Sunday morning without hearing him on TV. Yet, in this area we did not agree. These kinds of systems should never divide us. Your presentation here is what I agree with most. However, it may be because of my limited ability to see the other position. I am not afraid to research these other systems and better understand them. My faith in Jesus is not based on this system and I don't believe one's view of eschatology is of ultimate importance.

Here is one thing I find interesting that I think may have been prompted in me by His Spirit. As I read the teachings of Jesus, He came preaching the Kingdom. The Kingdom is at hand. It is near. Jesus never talks about when this was going to happen until the disciples came to ask Him when it would happen. That was not the main thrust of His teaching. I think I am much like them. "When is it coming? Give me dates, year, etc."

You have helped me open my eyes. Something has happened. Jesus said, Luke 21:31

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand . KJV

Most of those events have happened. When Jesus said something was near, it was near. When He mentioned that His time for the sacrifice was near, it was just a short time away. This is the view that troubles me the most about our position. There are some wonderful teachings out there about His present Kingdom upon this earth even now.

However, I remain a literalist and I believe that many of the Kingdom messages of the Old Testament have yet to be fulfilled. I still see a physical Israel in the millennium. I still love Israel. I love you. I love His body. I am just thrilled to be a part of anything and anyway He does it. I think it is good to see people getting excited about His coming so I will always encourage study in the subject.

Some of our dispensational ideas didn't come to pass like we thought. We must continually revise. In the meantime, I think I will enjoy His Kingdom now.

"Jesus, when are You coming? Help me to keep my lamp trimmed. Please find me diligently working for You when You come. Wash me, mold me, make me wholly Yours."

Well, He didn't come when I thought He was coming. But now look at things. I have a beautiful family with thirteen beautiful grandkids here on earth and one in heaven. Today, our family numbers 25 with two married kids yet to start their families. In the next few years we will start having grandkids. Every single one of them is headed to heaven. Not one is lost. How many will that number get to before He returns? I have to admit I do think of that and I want Him to include every single one of my family in that complete number. If He waits until that number reaches into the thousands, it is my job to make sure every single one of them is included in the number. That is a concentration of mine and should be of every father out there. Families, in your evangelism, start with your families first. Kids are leaving the church by the masses. Make sure your children have a love for Christ just as you do. Don't allow one of yours fall into apostasy.

A father who understands slightly His Father,
Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 28, 2010 at 7:40pm

Good word beloved.

Amen and amen brother. My weakest biblical topic is eschatology/future events. This may sound crazy to some, but I don't really care to know when He comes back and I am not into the sings of the time etc either. Every single church age has been certain that Christ is coming in their life time.

Could you imagine what the church members thought when the First World War was happening or when Jerusalem was burnt to the ground on A.D. 70?

I know this much. This very second many are transitioning to a conscious existence in hell. That matters to me, that is scary and heart breaking. Every second some die and transition to hell. Some are within my family members that I was too busy in ministry (how ironic) or other things to speak to them about Christ.

Blessings bro.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 6:11am

Where are the post millennialists? I know you have to be here. Well, I am going to take a shot at it and interpret a Scripture according to that view.
Peter said in 1 Peter 4:7: But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
KJV

Did Peter, here, make a mistake? When is the end of all things coming? Weeks, months, or perhaps decades? Surely he did not intend to convey to the reader it would be some 2,000 years before the end would come. What was he speaking of? Should we look into history to see if some event did happen that fulfills these verses. After all, he, Paul and others really believed that Jesus would return in their day. Is this a mistake in the Bible? We know it is God's Word so surely this is not a mistake. Our only alternative is to seek to completely understand Scripture in its context.

The followers of Christ of this time were suffering great persecutions. Peter himself would soon reach his own end in martyrdom. The verse refers to the end of their lives and suffering for the cause of Christ. They were in severe tribulation. Their lives were being threatened, they were being delivered to the magistrates, and they were being tortured and killed. This epistle was probably actually written around seven years before the end did come.

The church of this time was being ruled primarily by the church at Jerusalem. This was about to come to an end. Everything concerning the church, the New Covenant, the Kingdom of God was all about to change. A new era of God's plan was about to dawn. Jesus was finally coming to establish His Kingdom upon this earth. Jesus spoke of this event during His time here. He said:

Luke 21:5-6

5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 "As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."

Luke 21:20-23

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
NIV

Luke 21:23-24
23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:25-28

25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. NIV

I have only condensed these verses because of space. Please read the entire chapter.

Yes, the end did come in 70 AD. The armies of Titus sieged Jerusalem and utterly destroyed that city along with its temple. Now, Christ has returned in power to set up His Kingdom through the church. The church at Jerusalem is done and the reign of Christ through the church began. The millennium begins. Everything is different. James has been killed along with Peter, Luke, Matthew, and virtually all the disciples and leaders of the Jerusalem church. Even the beloved Paul is gone. Virtually all of the New Testament writers were gone. The pen of Luke goes silent and little is known of the few years shortly after this event. However, what we see emerging from the foundations of destruction was a glorious church that would eventually become dominant over the entire earth. Today, it is the largest earthly organization and continues to grow with great advances in Africa, Asia and South America. The church is a Kingdom organization that has fulfilled many of the wonderful passages promised by our Lord thousands of years ago. It is the new Israel. Someday the final number of souls destined for the Kingdom shall be brought in. At that time, our glorious Savior will appear in the sky, return to the earth and bring an end to everything. The dead will rise and give an answer for everything they have done. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. There will be no more tears and no more sorrow.

Blessed be the name of our Lord.

What do you think? How do you refute this? Remember, I am writing a view that I don't myself agree with.

A part of His Kingdom,
Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 6:31am

Excuse me, it is too late for me to revise the above discourse. However, as I was rereading it I meant to say where are the amillennialists rather than where are the post millennialists. Also, please understand I am not meaning to challenge or demean anyone. There are many out there that could support the position of the amillennialist much better. If you shoot me sky high, I pray you will do it in love.

Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 6:42am

Good job, Kneeling but the belief is that of a spiritual Kingdom and church rather than a physical one. That makes it a little more difficult to refute. Remember the interpretations are allegorical rather than literal. The prophecies refer to a spiritual state rather than a physical one. Numbers, geography, etc. are nearly as important. The thousand years refers to a long time rather than a specific time period.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 7:00am

That is a much better interpretation. Yes, the church is the New Israel and the prophecies in Zech, Isa, etc. are being fulfilled in the church. The church is being trodden down and when all those destined for salvation are brought in, the end will come. There are some Jews in this New Israel but they are all one. All the promises to Abraham are being fulfilled in the church. It shall fill the whole earth.

Also, remember, I am not an authority on this view as I don't even believe in it. I am hoping to gain a better understanding of it by someone defending it. There is no doubt in my mind that I have much to learn in this area. I do see some problems with the premillennial view that I hope are also answered. The primary one being the obvious glare of an apparent New Testament belief that Christ would return soon and what is actually true.

Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 7:05am

I did give an example earlier of the differences of interpretation between a literalist and an allegorist. I think I used a passage in Zech and the interpretation given by Matthew Henry's concordance.

Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 27, 2010 at 5:58am

KneelingB4Jesus,

This is a very good point as what happens does affect our system. I can either improve my system or stubbornly try to interpret what is happening within my system. I agree with you that there is already enough proof to go with a literal interpretation. Those in Covenant Theology are even now accusing us of doing this very thing. Many fundamental premiillennial teachers such as Hal Lindsey taught that the generational theology like the beginning of the new nation Israel in 1948s. Let's say that is the generation Jesus spoke of as that generation would not pass away. If we use forty years as a generation, that generation has ended. Then, we changed that date to 1967 (the six day war). That seemed to work better but now we are getting close to the end of that one. So, which one is it?

The truth is we do try to understand prophecy today by current events. I see nothing wrong with revising our system when what we thought didn't happen. What you mentioned about United Europe is exactly what I think is going to happen. However, if it crumbles over the next decades (I don't have many of those decades left), I will think something else. I see nothing wrong with that. My faith in Jesus is not based on how I interpret future events. When He said, "No one knows," I am certainly not going to pretend that I do. However, what I am almost certain of is that He is going to return to establish His Kingdom on this earth, will plant His foot on the Mt. of Olives and will reign over the earth from there along with us. However, I guess I am more looking forward to that New Jerusalem coming down from out of the sky.

I think it is wise for our generation to be constantly looking to the clouds for His coming. Are we the generation that will usher in His return? I can't say for sure but I surely want to be ready if we are. I still believe that New York City is the Babylon of Rev 17 and 18 but the way things are going in our economy I am beginning to think I got that one wrong. But looking at things from my perspective today, it sure fits the bill.

Being a premillennialist is fun. If you are a post or a you have much to do before He can come back. You've got huge problems. We premillennialists can be looking forward to His return at any moment. I doubt if there is one premillennialist that would argue with Him if He came to get us before the tribulation. I can assure you, I am taking the first boat out of here.

Hallelujah to the Lamb,
Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 7:16am

Here is a better job of explaining this siege and its fulfilling all Old Testament prophecy concerning its fall:


Luke 21:20-28

I. He tells them that they should see Jerusalem besieged, compassed with armies (v. 20), the Roman armies; and, when they saw this, they might conclude that its desolation was nigh, for in this the siege would infallibly end, though it might be a long siege. Note, As in mercy, so in judgment, when God begins, he will make an end.

II. He warns them, upon this signal given, to shift for their own safety (v. 21): "Then let them that are in Judea quit the country and flee to the mountains; let them that are in the midst of it" (Of Jerusalem) "depart out, before the city be closely shut up, and" (as we say now) "before the trenches be opened; and let not them that are in the countries and villages about enter into the city, thinking to be safe there. Do you abandon a city and country which you see God has abandoned and given up to ruin. Come out of her, my people."

III. He foretels the terrible havoc that should be made of the Jewish nation (v. 22): Those are the days of vengeance so often spoken of by the Old-Testament prophets, which would complete the ruin of that provoking people. All their predictions must now be fulfilled, and the blood of all the Old-Testament martyrs must now be required. All things that are written must be fulfilled at length. After days of patience long abused, there will come days of vengeance; for reprieves are not pardons. The greatness of that destruction is set forth,

1. By the inflicting cause of it. It is wrath upon this people, the wrath of God, that will kindle this devouring consuming fire.

2. By the particular terror it would be to women with child, and poor mothers that are nurses. Woe to them, not only because they are most subject to frights, and least able to shift for their own safety, but because it will be a very great torment to them to think of having borne and nursed children for the murderers.

3. By the general confusion that should be all the nation over. There shall be great distress in the land, for men will not know what course to take, nor how to help themselves.

IV. He describes the issue of the struggles between the Jews and the Romans, and what they will come to at last; in short,

1. Multitudes of them shall fall by the edge of the sword. It is computed that in those wars of the Jews there fell by the sword above eleven hundred thousand. And the siege of Jerusalem was, in effect, a military execution.

2. The rest shall be led away captive; not into one nations, as when they were conquered by the Chaldeans, which gave them an opportunity of keeping together, but into all nations, which made it impossible for them to correspond with each other, much less to incorporate.

3. Jerusalem itself was trodden down of the Gentiles. The Romans, when they had made themselves masters of it, laid it quite waste, as a rebellious and bad city, hurtful to kings and provinces, and therefore hateful to them.

V. He describes the great frights that people should generally be in. Many frightful sights shall be in the sun, moon, and stars, prodigies in the heavens, and here in this lower world, the sea and the waves roaring, with terrible storms and tempests, such as had not been known, and above the ordinary working of natural causes. The effect of this shall be universal confusion and consternation upon the earth, distress of nations with perplexity, v. 25. Dr. Hammond understands by the nations the several governments or tetrarchies of the Jewish nation, Judea, Samaria, and Galilee; these shall be brought to the last extremity. Men's hearts shall fail them for fear (v. 26), apopsychonton anthropon - men being quite exanimated, dispirited, unsouled, dying away for fear. Thus those are killed all the day long by whom Christ's apostles were so (Rom 8:36), that is, they are all the day long in fear of being killed; sinking under that which lies upon them, and yet still trembling for fear of worse, and looking after those things which are coming upon the world. When judgment begins at the house of God, it will not end there; it shall be as if all the world were falling in pieces; and where can any be secure then? The powers of heaven shall be shaken, and then the pillars of the earth cannot but tremble. Thus shall the present Jewish policy, religion, laws, and government, be all entirely dissolved by a series of unparalleled calamities, attended with the utmost confusion. So Dr. Clarke. But our Saviour makes use of these figurative expressions because at the end of time they shall be literally accomplished, when the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll, and all their powers not only shaken, but broken, and the earth and all the works that are therein shall be burnt up,
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

Do you think it is possible that these verse have at least been partially fulfilled?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 7:51am

Amen

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 8:10am

Here is another interpretation written by Dan Delagrave in the "New Jerusalem Community":
http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=54&a=1730

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." (Luke 21:32)

The times of the Gentiles has to be kept in it's proper historical context. Jesus said that "all", including the times of the Gentiles, would be fulfilled before his contemporary generation had passed. Dispensationalists go outside the box of "this generation" in order to teach a futuristic view of Christ's coming. To do that they have to redefine both "the times of the Gentiles" and "this generation". Needless to say, their "1948 generation" has proven to be more than just a little embarrassing.

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . . . and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20, 24)

The times of the Gentiles referred to the treading down, or desolation, of first century Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the days of vengeance". In other words, it was God's mission for the Gentiles to bring judgment upon Jerusalem. This is consistent with past judgments upon Israel, when God brought Gentiles armies into their land to desolate it.

The whole controversy centers on the duration of the treading down of Jerusalem. The Greek for "trodden" is pat-eh'-o (#3961 in Strong's Concordance), and it means "to trample down underfoot". The parallel to Lk.21:24 is seen in Revelation 11:2, which says:

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months."

Could it be any plainer? The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of "the time of the end" is said to be "the scattering of the power of the holy people", which we are told would be accomplished during "a time, times, and a half", or forty two months.

Furthermore, when we consider the mountain of evidence for a pre-70 dating of Revelation, in addition to the statements of imminence in the book itself (1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 10, 12), then the forced conclusion is that the forty two months was fulfilled in the 66-70 A.D. Jewish-Roman War.

Remember, I am a dispensationalist in this regard and this part of an article was written partially to discount my view.

Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 26, 2010 at 8:45am

Okay, I have a little time here while I wait on an appointment. Let's continue with the discourse Jesus gave.


Luke 21:31-33
31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. NIV

Jesus said that this generation would not pass away until all these things were fulfilled. Was He speaking of the generation of those alive at that time. There certainly was much prophecy fulfilled.

Jesus had said concerning that generation:

Luke 11:29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. NIV

~and~


Luke 11:50-51
50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. NIV

Is there any question that Jesus is speaking to the generation of the Pharisees and teachers that were continually harassing Him? Obviously not. They were going to suffer the judgment of God in a major way. Their city was going to be destroyed, their temple destroyed, their people murdered and dispersed. Everything for them was coming to an abrupt end. A new day was about to dawn. It was to be the era of His Kingdom. You dispensationalists keep talking about a future fulfillment but what do you do with this absolute statement of Christ that this generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.

The prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is almost two millenniums ago. Why do you so resist its fulfillment in 70 AD? For forty-two months, just as prophesied, Jerusalem was surrounded and sieged by the Roman army. Jerusalem was destroyed, the priests were murdered, that generation of those that had so resisted Christ definitely paid the price for their rejection of the Holy One of Israel. The Kingdom has come.

Roy

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 6
• 7
• 8
• 9
• 10
• …
• 13
• Next ›
• Page