Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 23, 2010 at 2:35am

Hey beloved Pam -

Great to see you on the Forum once again. I have missed your valuable input. What you have stated holds a lot of truth and is wise counsel.

However - you said the following:

>>......and entering into such philosophies and arguments.......does me or anyone else good.......

I graciously disagree with you beloved. These topics have done nothing, but enhance my walk. They have helped me know my Lord better. I totally respect the fact that it does you no good, but many here would say different for themselves. I am blessed by all these topics if in the process I don't neglect your great counsel of keeping my bible study priority or my relationship with my Lord as simple as possible.

I find that as I study hermeneutics, homiletics, apologetics, eschatology etc... My life becomes richer and I can be use by God to edifying the people of God. As long as in the process I do not neglect my bible study time, prayer and fellowship. By no means am i saying here that God will only use those that are familiar with such topics. No way. The pastors and brothers that have no idea these kind of topics even exist, but are preaching with the power of the Holy Spirit are also use as we all know.

Love you sis.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 23, 2010 at 2:11am

Beloved Andrew/Shearer,

I Love what you have brought up. It is an extremely important subject that you are giving us the opportunity to speak on.

>> I go with just sticking with the bible.

I am in total agreement with "stick to the bible". But Unless we have never gone to a church or fellowship with other believers we will never be confronted with various interpretations of the same verses we have concluded to mean some thing else. Most pastors, elders have a "philosophy" of how to interpret the bible, i.e. hermeneutics. Pastors and teachers will hardly ever mention this topic, but they certainly fall into one of them. It is important to be aware of them, at least in the most basic forms to gauge if what we are being taught actually aligns correctly with scripture. The systems we are discussing here are the main systems I am aware of. Each of them "sticks to the bible" but their presuppositions as to what rules to use to interpret it lead them to radically different conclusions. It is our God given task to rightly divide the word of truth. It is good to know how to study the bible, which rules we use for reading it. We often ask why there are so many different denominations and interpretations of a passage. One of the main reasons is because the majority of the family finds topics that deal with how we interpret the bible correctly unnecessary. Not so much this particular topic here which most of the participants find not to be on the top of their list to study. The systems whether we realize it or not describe the methods people who claim, we stick to the bible only, actually use. The teachers, theologians and scholars the Lord has blessed us with simply place those methods in systems that we can actually understand.

For example friend, my first three years were strictly bible only (ohhh how I thank God for the foundation that was built in me because of it) but I would at times go back to the brothers and tell them that as I kept on reading I realized I had misinterpret something’s and would rectified my previous statements. I also was led to preach by the Spirit in a certain way. When I when to bible college I was amazed that the way (the class that teaches how to preach -Homiletics) that the way the Spirit had guided me to construct my sermons was exactly how the school was teaching how to effectibly do so. I was amazed how God had guided me. I also realized the beauty of having brothers before us who placed systems in place to teach others. These systems teach us how many among our family approach scripture and as we study them we see as well how we ourselves do it and that helps us to understand if we are doing it correctly. Many who claim bible only are misinterpreting scripture but don't have a teachable spirit and find no worth on topics GOD has blessed some among us to expand on for the edifying of the body.

Beloved this is our life. I do not watch TV or spend much time in the things that interest the world. I do not spend my time amassing wealth or pursuing my Accounting career to become the best account ever. It pays my bill and i work as if i was working for the Lord, but my passions are else where. Nothing wrong with the things I mentioned, but my interest is everything pertaining to God and Godliness. Not to win arguments or to appear intellectual as some think. No beloved - this is my passion (and the passion of many others) to KNOW Him and the power of His resurrection. These topics help us know Him more, so we study them out. Unfortunately some think is some intellectual kick we get out of them or think we have no life, because of our zeal to edify the body through this wonderful means God has allowed us to partake of. We can fellowship, study, evangelized and do some research as well, we can have balance lifes. God is not against these things, he has blessed us with wonderful teachers and we understand that the ultimate authority is His word and the teacher of teachers is the Holy Spirit.

I wish every Christian would by books like - Knowing Scripture from RC Sproul - they can only enhance our understanding of scriptures. Some in our family find it a worthless effort and that breaks my heart when there is some really excellent material out there that can enhance our personal bible study.

The description of the book I mention is the following: R. C. Sproul helps us dig out the meaning of Scripture for ourselves. He lays the groundwork by discussing why we should study the Bible and how our own personal study relates to interpretation. Then he presents in simple, basic terms the science of interpretation and gives practical guidelines for applying this science. Here is a basic book for both beginning Bible readers and those who have been at it for a long time.

>>do people really need to know all this to be saved ?

Of course not brother. But we should grow in our knowledge of God and Godliness and this topics help us do that, by giving us some proven methods to interpret scripture accurately.

>>Colossians 2:8 KJV Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deciet,after the tradition of men,after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.

I think bro you quoted tes verse to make the points that this type of topic fall into the philosophies of men the writer was refering to, but i would have to disagree with that interpretation. If anything God is pleased when we study everything pertaining to him and take advantage of the subjects He has blessed us with by some beautiful writers/teachers.

Check out how the participants in this discussion feel about the topic:

KneelingB4Jesus said:

The future will happen God's way no matter what theology we have, lol.

Roy said:

I have to say it would be okay to pick and choose (Roy was talking about the three systems we are discussing here) depending how they line up with Scripture. I, like Yahwey, (boy I love that Name) am more of a literalist. If God says He created all matter in six days, I believe He did it in six days. I don't need to have someone explain to me why something as obvious as that needs to be explained away to mean billions of years. On the other hand, I don't think Jesus is a literal door.

LT said:

I do not like to wear a hat such as DT or CT, but develop understanding as God leads and evaluate what I see with what others see. That is why I often use the term "align" with, because I examine what I believe and what the other,or in this case a system, believes.

Oh, brother, so much to learn and so little time to learn it. Thank God we are not saved by depth of knowledge, but simplicity of faith in the one who paid it all for us. Yet, the journey to grow and learn more is exciting and a joureny I never want to cease taking.

I said:

personally I don't study my bible from a dispensational perspective or a Covenant one.


So beloved we hear you loud and clear and give you a big 10-4, but we also take on the challenge of investigating these topics with a dual purpose:

1. TO KNOW HIM, TO KNOW HIM MORE.

2. TO EDIFY GOD'S PEOPLE WITH THE TRUTH, FOR ONLY THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE.

Can the above be done without ever touching these subjects - definitely - Can you be a great tool by understanding why some believe what they believe and understanding if your own method to interpret scripture is accurate - most definitely.

Hey bro you did state to fill you in, hahaha so i hope i made some sense.

All I write to you here is said in the Love we share in Christ my bro. I am sure you know that.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 23, 2010 at 5:41am

David,

I must admit I am enjoying everything you are writing concerning this system of study. I think it is critically important - for some, anyway. Let me explain: several years ago, as a young inexperienced pastor, I became involved in a group that included college professors and their students. The group was seeking a closer walk with God. Later, I became disillusioned by some of their beliefs. One of those was amillennialism. I was not ready to grasp such a concept. To my knowledge, it had not been discussed in the school where I had prepared for the ministry. I wondered why it was necessary to make the Bible say something it did not say or at least I could not see it saying. Even though we were both evangelical and both wanted a closer walk with the Lord, this and other doctrinal differences brought division. Today, that would not be a problem. I understand better the amillennial position. I still do not agree but can understand it.

The amillennial position became popular during the 3rd and 4th century. Can you imagine the church's leaders attitude when the great city of Constantinople was being built by Constantine? They would have thought, "This is it. Surely we are in the millennium." The church was becoming the dominant religion of the world. Just a decade or so before this the Christian church was still under severe persecution. Their lands were being taken, their books burned, and some even died for the faith. Now, that was changing. The edicts of MIlan and another one was restoring them and they were becoming the desire of the nations. The Hagia Sophia was built in Constantinople and became the primary basilica in the world. The millennial reign was in full force. The church was mightily advancing and beginning to reign. Maybe it would have been nice to have lived during that time.

Teachers began to interpret the Scripture allegorically defining current events by the Bible. The Catholic church was established and peace reigned for the believer for a long time. It is easy to see why one would think this was it. The amillennial position was firmly established in the church as the interpretation of the period of time spoken of in Revelation 20.

Then, a thousand years came and went. The thousand years then was not a literal thousand years but an allegorical reference to a long period of time.

I still have a problem with the amillennial position. Maybe my interpretation is also subject to current events. I do not believe salvation is conditional upon our position of this topic. However, that great millennial reign is gone. Constantinople is gone. It appears to me that the church is not supposed to be reigning during this church age but witnessing to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is yet to come to establish His reign.

Anyway, here is my problem: as time went by the church became more and more corrupt. The adoption of doctrines such as indulgences and the like were nothing more than the name it claim it methods of raising money today. The church liked the Hagia Sophia and wanted more of them. The church built large monasteries everywhere with some of the finest architecture in the world. Wealth became a dominant part of the church. Eventually there would come the reformation and the church became divided. The reformation was necessary due to the widespread corruption in the church.

However, the amillennial view carried over to the Reformers. Now, however, we are seeing a strong return to the premiillennial view of Scripture. I personally believe it more accurately represent Scripture and I do not believe we are presently in the millennium. I do not see the reign of Christ in the world through the church as represented in Scripture. Again, my view may be subject to the current events of the last several hundred years. Had I lived 1500 years ago, I probably would have thought differently. I can certainly understand why the view became so popularized.

Today the Hagia Sophia, once the premier church of the world, is nothing more than a museum along with some other great church buildings of the past. Folks, in my view, this is not the millennium. I look forward to the return of Christ when He will establish His reign here on the earth and will rule and reign with His church for a thousand years.

I have previously given an explanation of the gap period between the New Testament writings and today. It has been a long time since He promised He would return. However, I am glad that it has or I wouldn't have been a part of His plan and neither would you. He has established a certain number and you are one of those numbers. He will not return until all one hundred (a symbolic number) are brought in. When that last one sheep is brought in, He will appear in the sky and all the earth will mourn. Today, I raise my hands in surrender and praise to the One Who when He comes shall destroy all the corruption in the church and in me. There will be no more contention with the sin nature. In looking forward to this day, I stand complete in Him. He is my Lord and my Savior.

In Him
Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 23, 2010 at 6:05am

By the way, Constantinople is now modern Istanbul and is not a Christian city by any stretch of the imagination. There are a few Christians scattered about but not many. There are now nearly 3,000 mosques in the city (once the largest and most important city in the world). Islam has been dominant for many centuries.

Also, I guess some have noticed that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is not occupied by anything that has to do with Jesus Christ. He is not reigning over the city. Jerusalem has not been completely restored and will probably not be until He returns. We need Jesus, our leader, to return. Even so, Lord Jesus, please come quickly.

Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 23, 2010 at 6:09am

On the other hand, aren't you like me, thrilled that He didn't come before you became a part of His Kingdom haha. I wonder what the full number of Gentiles is. I wouldn't want Him to miss one of those that God has chosen.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 24, 2010 at 4:55am

I think I am talking to myself.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 24, 2010 at 1:10pm

Thank you so much Roy tor taking the time to give us a valuable glimpse into church history.

I truly enjoyed reading what your wrote and I too look forward to the return of Christ when He will establish His reign here on the earth and will rule and reign with His church for a thousand years.

NO You are not talking to yourself hahaha but thanks for the laugh

Love you man. You rock!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 24, 2010 at 3:43pm

I am confident that a covenant theology person could easily dispute what I have written. I am wanting to hear why church corruption doesn't affect the amillennial approach.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 24, 2010 at 7:21am

Okay David, I am going to stick my neck out here with the understanding it might get cut off.

I am going to also comment on the statement:

>> I go with just sticking with the bible.

First of all, I am very respectful of this view. I also am going to stick with the Bible. However, we all have a system of belief whether we realize it or not. And that system that we have (regardless of how simple or developed it is) determines the way we interpret a Scripture. Someone might say that they just want to read the Bible and not worry about these doctrines. However, they look at Scripture through a certain view. They might not realize this but they actually do. What they believe affects the way they understand the Scripture they read. If they don't want to be bothered with those ideas that bother them or are controversial, they will just slide over those verses without really digging into them to see what God is saying to His people. Two people can read John 3:16 and come up with different interpretations. One might say it is exactly what He said (whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life). Others might say, "Well, yes, but do you really understand the meaning of the word 'believe'?" Still others may say, "Yes, it is to those who believe and then continue to walk in obedience to our Lord and Savior." Everyone has a system of beliefs. Everything on this forum that has been expressed is a system of beliefs. I hear people saying, "My system is correct and yours is wrong." Maybe my system of belief (and I do not believe this comes from Scripture) is that we should avoid discussing those ideas that are controversial. Maybe my system of belief is that we should just keep everything simple and avoid these areas.

David, I know this is off the subject area but appears to really be a need that needs to be addressed. I want to give two examples where I believe this system of belief just doesn't get the job done in the body of Christ.

I personally grew up in a system that believed that you cannot know for certain that you are going to heaven. This is a system of belief that a great number of the body of Christ still has. They believe that as long as you are doing pretty well following Christ, you are going to make it. However, if for some reason you fall into sin, you probably won't. Now, this is perhaps one of the greatest areas of controversy among Evangelicals. Some say that once you are saved you cannot ever lose that. Others say that your walk with Christ to a certain extent determines your final destiny. These are both systems of beliefs that people have on this net. Perhaps, you system tells you to just leave it alone. Let everyone come to their own conclusion. Maybe both answers are correct, etc. Jesus tells us to obey His commands. Everyone that does what God is demanding and overcomes will have eternal life, and whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, and on and on. Let's say I have the view that I can ultimately be lost. When I read the Bible, that view determines how I interpret what I am reading. What if that system is not correct? What if the other system is not correct? Is it important that we fully understand His Word in this area?

I do have some understanding in this area. Let me tell you why. As I mentioned, I grew up in the system that you can never know for sure if you are going to heaven. Maybe that would work for some, but I could not keep it simple and make that system work. Finally, by the time I reached the age of 27, I had reached a climax of despair and could not continue pastoring a church without even knowing whether or not I was bound for heaven. My answer to the question of whether or not we could know was, "not really." I couldn't survive with that system. I went on a fast. I quit eating anything. I did drink water from the tap but that was it. (I found out later that you should not fast on nothing but tap water). I really didn't care since I needed to know Christ and His love or quit this Gospel and find something else. I got so sick during that time that I couldn't get out of bed. I know some people can survive in this system. I asked a good pastor friend of mine how he could go on and not know for sure whether or not he was truly saved from hell. We shared and shared. I remember the day when he came to me and said, "Roy, I know now that I will be in heaven. I know I am saved." Forgive me, but I had to know whether or not I was going to heaven. Finally, God in His great mercy, revealed to me in Scripture that He had completely paid for my salvation and that I didn't need to ever worry about it again. I knew that if He put just one rule that made my salvation conditional, I would fail. Just knowing that rule would make me go against it. I am too much like Adam.

"For goodness sakes, Adam, all you need to do is just not eat of that one fruit in that huge garden. Look around you, man, there is more there then you could enjoy in an eternity. Just leave that one piece of fruit alone. How much easier could it get than that"?

You know what? You are just like Adam yourself. If there is one little simple thing you must do, you will fail. If you think there is one thing you shouldn't think about, you will think about that. If you think there is one little thing you shouldn't look at, you will look at it. If you think there is one simple thing you shouldn't do, you will do it. I absolutely guarantee it. If you make salvation conditional upon yourself in any way, you will fail. At least that is what I think. My system of belief does not allow me to put any condition upon myself. I must know that I am His regardless of whatever I do, think or see. I have often said that I put 100% of my faith in Him and 0% in myself. Maybe you think it is possible for you to not do, see, feel, think, hear or touch something that you shouldn't but I convinced that is not possible for me. I, like Adam, need a Savior. Can you imagine how easy it would be if the only rule you had to follow was just not to eat a certain fruit? I don't know how God could make it any clearer to us. "Folks, you just can't do it. Give it up. Turn to me and find rest."

Now, let me say this, you have a system of belief that deals with this area. This area for the most part just affects you. It is critical but I don't think it is the most critical one we have to face our cultural with. Let me give another example:

Our society has been asking the church, "Why is there suffering and death in God's plan?" Now, we are getting to a big one. There are others that are as big as this one: "How did I get here?" What is my purpose? etc." Let's deal with suffering and death.

You have a system that at least attempts to answer this question. Do we need to address this very difficult question? Absolutely! Have we done a very good job? I would have to say that every culture has to come to the place of answering this complicated doctrinal understanding. How we answer it goes along way in determining our relevance in our society. We have not been doing a great job in America for sure answering our society. Let's say that you system says that it is not God's will that anyone suffer and that none of His kids die a premature death. I have seen that very system argued on this net. This answers one system about the goodness of God. Their system is that God is good and someone that would actually either take someone's life or even allow them to die prematurely cannot be good so that cannot be His will. They will spend hours creating a system that God wants to heal all our physical diseases and that He does not want us to suffer or die prematurely. Well, that system might satisfy some but I guarantee you it is not satisfying our society. They see suffering and dying and want to know why a loving God causes that or even allows it. Your answer that it is not His will weakens an all-powerful God that cannot stop all this suffering and death that we see all around us. That system turn more people off than on. That system makes you irrelevant and you go inward and say it is just me and God, etc, etc. It is just me and the Bible. What anyone else thinks doesn't matter. ---Nonsense. That is not the Christ I see asking us to reach out to a suffering world with hope. I absolutely believe in miracles. However, I also believe it is God's will to take us out of this world and that He will do it whenever and however He determines.

I am not wanting to get into a controversy on either of these two areas. I am just wanting everyone to see that they have have a system. You begin to develop your system just as soon as you can think. Different things can happen to invade and actually change your system but you will still have a system. It is absolutely impossible for you to say that let's forget hermeneutics. Saying keep it simple is hermeneutics. Saying stick with the Bible is hermeneutics. You have a system.

Here's the problem: what if your system is wrong? Let's say you believe that you can't know for sure that you can be really saved and know you are going to heaven. You are telling others that you can't know for sure. You are telling people, you better do your best to live a Christian life if you want to go to heaven. When one of the tract people (some of God's favorites) comes up and asks that Christian, "If you died tonight, would you go to heaven?" The person responds, "well, I am doing my best to live a Christian life. I really think I am but I am not sure." The tract person says, "Well, I think you need to really be saved. Would you pray this prayer with me?" On and on we go. I have read people saying on this net that you really can't know for sure. When you put that system out there, you are going way beyond the simple, I only accept the Bible, etc. You are talking hermeneutics. Even if you say, we shouldn't discuss that issue you are talking hermeneutics. You are putting your system out there. You just can't get away from it.

It seems innocent enough to put out there that we need to make sure we are doing all we can to make sure we are going to heaven. But what about that person that is wrestling with the issue in their soul? What about the person that knows that answer just does not answer the anxieties they are dealing with? Your system becomes irrelevant to them. It just does not answer their question.

Now, about suffering in our world - is your system relevant? Does it help a hurting world? If not, your system is probably not correct because Jesus is definitely the answer to a hurting world.

There is only one way to not expose your hermeneutics and that is to just remain silent. The minute you start talking or writing it is going to come out. You have a system. Sometimes your problem is that your system doesn't answer all your own questions. Guess what? You are in company with many, many of us. However, the answer to that is not let's just quit trying. The answer is to go deeper and deeper and deeper. Maybe you are just too tired right now to do that. I can understand where you are. You need a break. However, eventually you are going to want your questions answered unless you just occupy your mind in movies, novels or other areas that help you not to think for awhile. However, have you noticed that even when you are watching a movie or reading a book that your system is kicking into gear and you are even interpreting the movie or book according to your system. You cannot help it. It is the way you are made. You certainly cannot read the Bible without your system kicking into gear. Your hermeneutics are working. You can't stop them. You have a system. I have a system. If part of my system is wrong, I want it to be corrected. I don't want to believe something that is not correct. Will I ever have all knowledge? Of course not, but I certainly have more today and am more relevant today that I was when I was younger. I am still studying. I hope I never lose the desire to learn.

The system that says to me to not get into these areas, is not relevant to me. I know I have to know these things or at least become as aware of them as I can. Are we now presently in the millennium? That is something that I would like to better understand. I also want to know more about my security, about the suffering in our world and how to answer that. Is Jesus coming back? Does prophecy speak to this age? Are we actually in the latter rain? Yes, I am a nuts and bolts guy that wants to know how this thing works. Yes, I completely trust in Jesus and in His Word. However, He gave us a book of doctrines. He did not make some of the answers simple. I guess He is saying to me, "Roy, you've got to study." Isn't it fun to find something in there that you have been missing? How can you get those wonderful nuggets unless you dig deep?

Sorry for the long post. I love you all.

Still a student of His Word,
Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 24, 2010 at 7:45am

Roy,

I agree that when one responds they reveal what they believe. Often what we believe, like it or not, tends to align with a particular method or system. We may not know the system, or wish to not be known by the system, but we are known for what we believe when we respond putting ourselves out there.

There is a great need, IMO, for people to examine how their views on one subject aligns with their views on another subject. I have found over the years in ministry that many people often have a hodge-podge of views that do not connect, but often contradict. We need to spend time examining how our views align with each other. When I find a flaw in my views I have to trace it back to the point of divergence. Then look to see what other views are affected by that divergence and rethink each of those connected views. Does that take effort? You bet, but it is worth it in the end. Will we always be right? ... hahaha, we wish, but we will be drawing closer to aligning with God as we seek His truth revealed in His Word.

My two cents.

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 24, 2010 at 3:56pm

LT,

I responded to this post but I can't find it - at least I thought I did. I believe it is mostly true that none of us are completely unique in our understandings. We all fall somewhere in the pack. My goal is to be as close to correct as I can get before He calls me home. I have other goals as well. One of the most important goals I have is to see the church become more relevant in our society. We are losing our kids. Whether we realize it or not we are in a war. Satan's system is advancing very strongly. His system is taking control of areas that once were totally dominated by a biblical worldview. Part of our problem is that we don't even know what our worldview is. I become very interested when we begin to talk in areas of our worldview. I guess I have to think that the covenant theology position is beginning to fail. I think the church becomes less powerful through it. It is time for us to begin to break down the strongholds of the enemy. Lies are being taught our children in the classrooms. We're too busy to even notice. I guess I don't believe that God has any grandkids. I think that system is failed and doesn't work.

Still learning,
Roy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 24, 2010 at 7:52am

Brother David,

Maybe it would be good for you to start another discussion entitled something like, "Should Christians discuss doctrines?" Or maybe, "Just how important is my worldview?" What do you think? I think that would be good. However, I hope we can get some that are wanting to discuss these views on covenant theology and dispensationalism. I have much to say on these issues. I think these systems or misinterpretations of these systems go to the very heart of corruption in the church. I really want to discuss Israel and the church. These are vital issues. I am looking forward to more input in these areas. Should we just wait for LT? I know he is very busy right now.

Wanting more but still loving it and the brethren,
Roy

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 4
• 5
• 6
• 7
• 8
• …
• 13
• Next ›
• Page