All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
Views: 523
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Roy,
To my understanding this is one of the differences.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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This is the herminanuitical system I so far imbrace, Progressive Dispensationalism, but really i think i hold to a modified dispensationalist position more than anything.
As I have read the "progressive dispensational" position I have concluded that this method aligns with what I have come to embrace theologically, but i am very flexible in this topic.
- PD (progressive dispensationalism) holds that the church does not replace Israel, but that the plan for Israel and the church is both salvation in Christ. I believe that Jews must receive Christ and be saved by grace through faith as do the gentiles and messianic Jews.
-progressive dispensationalist can (and almost always does) hold to 7 year trib, pretrib rapture (I hold to pre-wrath), etc. without being inconsistent with its hermeneutical rules.
-PD believes that the new covenant began with the coming of Christ and that Jesus is reigning presently as the son of David, but will return to fully implement his rule in the millennium. Normative dispensationalism says the new covenant is for Israel only, not for the church and it hasn’t begun yet. They say we the "gospel of grace" and the "gospel of the kingdom" are two different gospels, one for the church and one for Israel. Jesus preached the "gospel of the kingdom" and so they hold that what he preached, Sermon on the Mount for example, is not for the church, but for Israel in the millennium. And they say that Christ has not begun to rule as the son of David in this age, only during the millennium. But I believe that the kingdom of god is in our midst by the Holy Spirit, though not in its fullness! And that Jesus words are directed at Israel and the church, not just Israel.
I believe the progressive dispensationalist position best synthesizes with the word. We can have "the kingdom" and "the rapture" too! Haha
Personally I don't study my bible from a dispensational perspective or a Covenant one. My areas of interest are Doctrine of God, Trinity, Christology, Pneumatology (What is the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit? What does the Bible teach us about the theology of the Holy Spirit?). Salvation, & Apologetics. Beyond that I have to dabble in and out. I am trying to be an expert in the above topics, however I am not able to achieve it, thus my lifelong passion with Theology. So many subjects and life is so short. Is so cool that we have eternity to know more about God.
Note: I think I understand the positions of the three systems I will be sharing about and that I am representing them accurately and fairly, but I will depend on others to correct my errors, if any. I have taken notes from many books and web sites. But the notes where for my personal study and I never bother to get references of where I am getting the info from. Now that I am sharing here it would be great to have them, but it would simply take me too much work to go back and research, so I am just sharing my understanding here and hope others jump in a correct me if I have misquoted a particular issue within the systems. :)
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Hey David,
I agree with what you have posted above. There are areas of concern in both DT and CT. DT often tries to apply Mat. 24 & 25 only to the Jews and I struggle with that. I do not like to wear a hat such as DT or CT, but develop understanding as God leads and evaluate what I see with what others see. That is why I often use the term "align" with, because I examine what I believe and what the other,or in this case a system, believes.
Oh, brother, so much to learn and so little time to learn it. Thank God we are not saved by depth of knowledge, but simplicity of faith in the one who paid it all for us. Yet, the journey to grow and learn more is exciting and a joureny I never want to cease taking.
Lord Bless,
LT
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hahaha Good one :)
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Tenderheart,
Today someone commented to me that they believed Jesus was the Father's first creation and that they had a very special relationship. I teach in a Christian school - one of the verses that I require my students to learn is:
1 Peter 3:15-17
15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. NIV
We are required by Scripture to be prepared to give an answer for the hope that we have. Maybe at one time an answer like, "That is what I learned as a child and it is what I believe today," would have worked but not anymore. Today, the Christian faith is being challenged by cultists, scoffers, atheists, etc. like never before especially here in America. Christians in America are very naive when it comes to the Scriptures. As a result we are losing some 80% of our young people when they get out on their own. It is important that Christians know why they believe what they believe. There are some doctrines that are obviously less critical and maybe the interpretation concerning the millennium is one of those but there are some very critical doctrines that the church needs to face. I think the second coming of Christ is one of the very important doctrines of the church. Notice another verse from Peter:
2 Peter 3:3-5
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming ' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." NIV
We Christians do have a problem. The Scripture told many years ago that Jesus was coming soon. Paul appears to have believed even that Jesus was coming during his lifetime. What is your answer for this? Are you prepared to give an answer? I think much of the church is not and yet the scoffers are taking over in our schools, government, etc. Understanding Scripture is very critical at this time yet we are becoming less and less educated in His Word.
I can't think of a better forum than this for Christians to be forced to defend their positions. As they do so they will find some that are solid and some of their positions that weren't so solid. I agree that some want to just argue their point and I hope we can get past that. I know for certain that my understanding of this subject is becoming much sharper as we continue to discuss.
Please don't allow my answer to be offensive. However, I am very concerned about the level of knowledge among believers.
I'm not sure what country you are from but here in America our President has announced that there are many paths that lead to God. Believers need to be ready to reply to the onslaught against our faith. At one time this was a Christian nation. Now, it would be difficult to say that it was. We need to know what we believe.
In Him,
Roy
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Tenderheart,
I agree that it is important that we must learn to walk in love. I am in complete agreement. I was responding to your statement:
But is it better to ask: What if both answers are right?
Obviously, differing answers cannot both correctly answer a question. It could be that both are off and the true answer is something else but there is an answer to our questions and searching Scripture for answers is a very important exercise. "Study to show yourself approved."
Having different opinions does not constitute hate. The hate comes from a different source but sometimes comes out through simple disagreements. Please forgive me if I have offended you with my answer. If I did not and you were simply attempting to make a point, let me say I completely agree with you.
My point was that our discussing doctrine is very important and I believe this forum is an excellent place to do so in addition to the other great services being encouraged by this site.
God bless you.
In His love,
Roy
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Tenderheart welcome to the forum.
It is so great that we have so many participants sharing their angle about the topics here. Often many of us are aware of the many aspects of our walk that we should take into consideration when dealing with a particular issue, but only share one or two thoughts about it since sharing all our thoughts would make our posts too long and we also know that others will want to share their perspective.
You brought up some good points and so did Roy. One of the things I have learned here and is a good constant reminder for us all is that communicating through this means is not always easy and successfully done as much as one tries, because of the diversity of human make up. Unless we are excellent writers who can convey the right tone within our wirtings, one must depend on our family in Christ to give us the benefit of the doubt and beyond that to be aware that this is Christian community and the majority of us have no intentions on being offensive, but simply have a zeal for edifying one another. We must read the posts of others assuming they have shared their thought with a clean heart.
Roy certainly does not need me to stick up for him, he is loved and respected in this community, but I know he does not wish to offend anyone here. I know he desires only to bless as many as possible. Through these exchanges we divulge our hearts to each other and hopefully that will make a difference on our future ones. I am sure brother Roy would discern each individual situation and act according to the guidance of our Lord when dealing with atheists or agnostics. What you and he shared is not in contradiction, but incorporating the two is wise.
I was so happy he responded to you because I was going to write almost word for word what he shared with you. Doctrine is essential and we are called to know the truth and teach the truth. Its work, but it can be joyful work. I was so happy he beat me to the punch and as I read his response I was learning how to state the same things the way he approached you. He does it in such a loving manner that I do not see where you see the condemnation you speak of. I am much more direct with my approach. Not because I want to be mean or think I am the final authority, but because of lack of time and a zeal for doctrinal purity. I do try to above all else be loving through all my post, but I have found out I am not always successful in achieving it.
I have taken the time to share here because we appreciate and love our family in Christ who we see at times gets hurt or offended in the normal process of discussing issues and hope this is of help to you.
You are so right that Christ is the corner stone on which we built. He is our foundation, praise God, but sis we know some build that foundation on the sand and others on the Rock of ages, so here we endeavor to come to the unity in the knowledge of Christ. No easy task among so many, but we enjoy the exchanges.
You are a blessing and hope to see you be one of the regulars here.
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Tenderheart,
You are not offending me by any of your replies. I accept them, read them and learn by them. I know you are struggling with the concept of some needing to know how this thing works. I think with you you are content to know that it does work.
Let me share with you something that you are already undoubtedly familiar with. Two people get in a car to go somewhere - perhaps a husband and a wife. Both are happy as they purr down the road in their beautiful car. One begins to explain to the other how the car actually works. The other is more interested in the fact that the vehicle is actually going down the road and is going to get them where they are going. The one says, "but it is important to understand how this things works." The other is not interested but is thrilled in the ride and in the wonders of that new "Buick."
I can't explain it very well but I can tell you that it is in some to know just what makes that vehicle work. One will spend hours studying the system while the other thinks all that is a waste of time. I really believe God needs both in His Kingdom. I really do believe there is a place for those who want to know what makes this vehicle go down the road while those who are enjoying the ride are equally as important.
Please forgive me if I have oversimplified as I do not want to add any additional offense. It is really a good thing to try to understand God's wonderful Word. It does not take away from Bible reading, it adds to it. Some, like Pastor Dave, will spend hours and hours in the Word seeking to understand it better. That is a calling and should be honored. However, greater understanding should never become a reason to be divided, puffed up or in any way a feeling of superiority. If God reveals something to that person, he should be humbled and not lifted up. The Apostle Paul was one of those persons who demanded that we get it right. While many were saying to not be so determined with the system, he wouldn't bend.
God bless you.
Roy -
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Amanda -
I truly enjoyed reading your responses. I will be brief here and say that your posts have blessed me. I so wish more of us would abide in the word, so the Spirit of truth can be the one leading us to the truth that sets us free.
I will also say that some of us have a God given passion to do both. Never neglecting our source of Freedom, the word, we endeavor to study All issues pertaining to God and Godliness with the hope to bless the scholars and the guy in skid road. Not neglecting evangelizing as a way of life. Praying without ceasing and worshiping our Lord with all we do.
The Lord has brought you to a good place beloved. We have hundredths of discussion. Numerous ones on prayer and fasting, evangelizing etc...
Be blessed and a blessing. :) Your friend and bro.
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. -
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