How Well Do You Know Paul?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 14, 2010 at 4:39am

I am going to kick off this discussion. It may be that you have not given much thought to the question. First, let me tell you what I believe about this man. I believe that Jesus came preaching a new way to God. He proclaimed that the old way wasn't God's final method of becoming His child. Virtually all we have received of Christ's direct teachings come to us through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I believe God's Word is perfect and complete but I don't believe those guys got the full message of Christ to us. I have read many respondents quoting Christ as a reason that we should continue obeying at least part of the Law. I believe that is why Jesus came to Paul after His ascension into heaven. Jesus wanted all His followers to understand completely His Gospel message. He used Paul to give to us His complete message. The other disciples were clearly confused about which parts of the law Christ's followers should continue to follow. Eventually, even the disciples accepted this message from Paul - the message they had clearly not gotten from Jesus. I do believe as they thought back to the words of Jesus they got it and changed their opinions. What do you think?

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 14, 2010 at 5:18am

Here are my first random thoughts about your question:

1. He was the perfect candidate for the job. He was extremely familiar with the Jewish teachings; he was taught at the feet of Gamaliel and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers.

"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. Acts 22:3

Acts 5:34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time.

This was needed because the one that would be assigned the task that Paul was assigned had to be able, by the revelation of God, to recognize the fulfillment of the Law in Christ and the establishment of the new covenant.

Acts 23:6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

2. He received straight revelation from Christ on the road to Damascus.

Acts 9
The Damascus Road: Saul Converted
1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

3. What he declared through the inspiration did not contradict the others, but enhanced it and clarified it.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 14, 2010 at 7:26am

David,

It appears to me in the New Testament that there was some real disagreement between Paul and the disciples. It does appear to me that they submitted to Paul's authority and accepted his revelations as straight from Jesus. However, the great reformer Martin Luther made a statement that James contradicted Paul's teachings by teaching that justification was by works. However, he did include James in his translation.

What appears very obvious from the whole of the New Testament is that those who sat directly under the teachings of Jesus especially on the teachings of the law became dependent on Paul to really understand the doctrine that salvation would be granted through faith rather that through obedience to the law. Why didn't the disciples get it even after sitting directly under the teachings of Christ? Was it Christ's plan all along to not reveal everything about salvation through faith until after His ascension. He did indicate to the disciples that they had much more to learn from the Spirit after He (Jesus) would be gone from them.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 14, 2010 at 2:52pm

Roy,

Martin Luther’s teaching on salvation by faith alone and his initial rejection of the book of James it well documented, as you know it is true that Luther felt that James differed with Paul’s teaching on salvation by grace through faith. As a result he held suspect, the book of James, but later realized that James did not contradict Paul’s teaching, but simply put emphases on the need for faith to be active.

Luther’s famous statement, "We are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone" was birth by the apparent contradiction he was force to reconcile. Some say that Luther played semantics with that statement, stating that if faith is "never alone" then we are not saved by "faith alone." But I believe they have misunderstood Luther's teaching. Luther understood that In the order of salvation we are justified by faith alone, but a person is not shown to be just by the mere profession of faith or by having a faith that remains alone. A person demonstrates they are justified by what they do. I do not want to go in to a tangent and take the topic in another direction, but you are tempting me hahaha


>>Why didn't the disciples get it even after sitting directly under the teachings of Christ?

There are a few reasons for that. I will venture into a couple. Jesus was fulfilling the law, so they saw Him follow the law. He did do and expressed to them things that let them know that things were about to change, but He fulfilled the law perfectly.

The disciples were confronting fierce opposition by Jew converts to abide in the law.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on July 14, 2010 at 5:26am

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is [fn] inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for [fn] training in righteousness;

2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Hi Roy,

This is an excellent question!

Why do I believe Paul? :) I believe Paul because he was chosen by Jesus for the purpose of bringing the message of the gospel to the gentiles... I'm a gentile! ;-)

His testimony is drastic... For the sake of those who don't know, he was the one who was killing believers. Paul (his name was Saul before his conversation) was the one who was out to shut down the message of Jesus...the good news--The Gospel!

Act 8:1 Saul was one of the official witnesses at the killing of Stephen. A great wave of persecution began that day, sweeping over the church in Jerusalem, and all the believers except the apostles fled into Judea and Samaria.

Act 8:2 (Some godly men came and buried Stephen with loud weeping.)

Act 8:3 Saul was going everywhere to devastate the church. He went from house to house, dragging out both men and women to throw them into jail.

This is the account of his conversion experience:
Act 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?"

Act 9:5 "Who are you, sir?" Saul asked. And the voice replied, "I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting!

Act 9:6 Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you are to do."

Act 9:7 The men with Saul stood speechless with surprise, for they heard the sound of someone's voice, but they saw no one!

Act 9:8 As Saul picked himself up off the ground, he found that he was blind.

Act 9:9 So his companions led him by the hand to Damascus. He remained there blind for three days. And all that time he went without food and water.

Act 9:11 And the Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying,

Act 9:12 I have shown him a vision of a man named Ananias coming in and laying his hands on him so that he can see again."

Act 9:13 "But Lord," exclaimed Ananias, "I've heard about the terrible things this man has done to the believers in Jerusalem!

Act 9:14 And we hear that he is authorized by the leading priests to arrest every believer in Damascus."

Act 9:15 But the Lord said, "Go and do what I say. For Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel.

Act 9:16 And I will show him how much he must suffer for me."

Paul never wavered in his work for the Lord, but his determination was strengthened when he did suffer:
Here is a link to the book of philippians: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Phl&c=1&t=NLT

Gal 3:23 Until faith in Christ was shown to us as the way of becoming right with God, we were guarded by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until we could put our faith in the coming Savior.

Gal 3:24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. So now, through faith in Christ, we are made right with God.

Gal 3:25 But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

Gal 3:26 So you are all children [fn] of God through faith in Christ Jesus.


His message of freedom confirms what Jesus taught while He was on earth.

Mat 5:17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them.

Mat 5:18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved.

Mat 5:19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.


One example Luke 14:1-6
Luk 14:1 One Sabbath day Jesus was in the home of a leader of the Pharisees. The people were watching him closely,

Luk 14:2 because there was a man there whose arms and legs were swollen. [fn]

Luk 14:3 Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in religious law, "Well, is it permitted in the law to heal people on the Sabbath day, or not?"

Luk 14:4 When they refused to answer, Jesus touched the sick man and healed him and sent him away.

Luk 14:5 Then he turned to them and asked, "Which of you doesn't work on the Sabbath? If your son [fn] or your cow falls into a pit, don't you proceed at once to get him out?"

Luk 14:6 Again they had no answer.

Jesus never backed down from the Pharisees, even though they continually attempted to trap him into breaking their laws.

Romans 10:4 (NIV)
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

So now....as believers we need to learn 'what are God's commandments'? Not what are the commandments for the jews in the OT? But--What does God command of us?


Mar 12:28 One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the discussion. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

Mar 12:29 Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord.

Mar 12:30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.' [fn]

Mar 12:31 The second is equally important: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' [fn] No other commandment is greater than these."

Mar 12:32 The teacher of religious law replied, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth by saying that there is only one God and no other.

Mar 12:33 And I know it is important to love him with all my heart and all my understanding and all my strength, and to love my neighbors as myself. This is more important than to offer all of the burnt offerings and sacrifices required in the law."

Mar 12:34 Realizing this man's understanding, Jesus said to him, "You are not far from the Kingdom of God." And after that, no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Jesus came to shut down the religion of the Pharisees, and show us a better way....the way of Love..true Love! Jesus came to show us that love is a choice, not a feeling. Love is an action word..and lived out God's way, we will obey God's Law (noted above).

This does not mean we can continue to sin...If we are loving the Lord with all our 'heart, soul, mind and strength', and loving our neighbour as ourselves, we won't be doing things like adultery, murder, slander, evil motives, malicous intents, using bad words, sexual immorality.....etc...

It doesn't stop here...we are to be continually learning and growing. This topic can spill over into so many other areas, but I'll leave it here for now.

So yes.. I believe Paul,

Blessings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 14, 2010 at 6:54am

Carla,

Let's take a look at this comment: Mat 5:19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Which commandments was Jesus speaking about? For example: Dt 14:8 The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses. NIV

Today, we Gentiles teach as Paul did that it doesn't matter whether or not one eats pork. Were the dietary laws not included in God's Law. How do we justify teaching people that it is no longer necessary to observe this law? Does this mean that I am least in the Kingdom since I do not observe this commandment?

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Permalink Reply by Carla on July 14, 2010 at 7:37am

This in Deuteronomy 14:8 is part of the Old Covenant..It was given to Israel so that they would be distinct from the surrounding nations.

The new covenant was first acknowledged by the prophet Jeremiah:
Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Jer 31:32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The New covenant is fulfilled with Jesus's sacrifice:
Luk 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Hbr 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things [fn] to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect [fn] tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

Hbr 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, [fn] having obtained eternal redemption.

Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the [fn] cleansing of the flesh,

Hbr 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through [fn] the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse [fn] your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hbr 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Jesus gave Peter a vision...declaring all meat to be clean:
Act 10:10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;

Act 10:11 and he [!] saw the [fn] sky opened up, and an [fn] object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,

Act 10:12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and [fn] crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the [fn] air.

Act 10:13 A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, [fn] kill and eat!"

Act 10:14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything [fn] unholy and unclean."

Act 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider [fn] unholy."

Act 10:16 This happened three times, and immediately the [fn] object was taken up into the [fn] sky.

Rom 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

Rom 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

Rom 14:3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the [fn] servant of another? To his own [fn] master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One person [fn] regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Jesus teaches us that the food we eat does not defile us (make us unclean)...The thing that makes us unclean is selfish motives which come from our heart:

Mar 7:18 And He [!] said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,

Mar 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and [fn] is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Mar 7:20 And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.

Mar 7:21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, [fn] fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,

Mar 7:22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, [fn] envy, slander, [fn] pride and foolishness.

Mar 7:23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

so.....what is the smallest commandment...
Well.. in order to get an answer to this we must look at what Jesus was talking about: Here are the preceding verses:

Mat 5:1 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the [fn] mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.

Mat 5:2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

Mat 5:3 " [fn] Blessed are the [fn] poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the [fn] gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

Mat 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Mat 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Mat 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Mat 5:10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Mat 5:12 "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how [fn] can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a [fn] hill cannot be hidden;

Mat 5:15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a [fn] basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Mat 5:16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Mat 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [fn] the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

and then He says:

Mat 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [fn] others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [fn] keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


two of my favourite quotes by Oswald Chambers:
"The sermon on the Mount is not now our new list of 'rules and regulations'....it is a statement of the life we will live when the Holy Spirit is getting His way with us."

"The characteristic of a disciple is not the list of 'good things' he does, but that he is in good motive, because he has been made good by the supernatural Grace of God."

Matthew 5:20--Jesus speaking:
Mat 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

As long is anyone is focused on the law, they will be blind to Jesus, because HE has fulfilled the law...our works now come out of our love for God.

2Cr 3:10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.


2Cr 3:11 For if that which fades away was [fn] with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


2Cr 3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,


2Cr 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.


2Cr 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil [fn] remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.


2Cr 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;


2Cr 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.


2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


2Cr 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


2Cr 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled [fn] to those who are perishing,


2Cr 4:4 in whose case the god of this [fn] world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving [fn] so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


2Cr 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants [fn] for Jesus' sake.

Blessings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 14, 2010 at 8:24am

Carla,

Am I understanding you correctly that the reference here to the commandments was not referring to the OT Law but a new set of commandments that He was giving?

Mat 5:19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Your reference to the Sermon on the Mount and in particular what is known as the beatitudes, indicates to me that you think Jesus was talking about something else other than the commandments Moses gave to the Israelites.

You quote at length a masterpiece of Paul about how the reading of the law still to this day leaves a veil over their face.

Roy

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Permalink Reply by Carla on July 14, 2010 at 8:44am

Hi Roy,

For the purpose of easy reading, your comments are bolded: :)

Am I understanding you correctly that the reference here to the commandments was not referring to the OT Law but a new set of commandments that He was giving?

In our 'flesh' could never attain what is being outlined here by Jesus.. We can only begin to live this out by the power of the Holy Spirit living in us...

Jesus Christ is the Supreme Authority of the human heart... This is more then a new set of commandments, although it is that also... but if we try to live them out, we would only become discouraged as we are set up to fail if we try to attain it on our own. This can only be attained by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and our obedience and surrender as we respond to His leading.

proverbs 3:5,5 says this:
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 Seek his will in all you do, and he will direct your paths.

Your reference to the Sermon on the Mount and in particular what is known as the beatitudes, indicates to me that you think Jesus was talking about something else other than the commandments Moses gave to the Israelites.

Mat 5:20 "But I warn you--unless you obey God better than the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees do, you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven at all!


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.' [fn]


Mat 5:22 But I say, if you are angry with someone, [fn] you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, [fn] you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, [fn] you are in danger of the fires of hell.


Mat 5:23 "So if you are standing before the altar in the Temple, offering a sacrifice to God, and you suddenly remember that someone has something against you,


Mat 5:24 leave your sacrifice there beside the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God.


Mat 5:25 Come to terms quickly with your enemy before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail.


Mat 5:26 I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Do not commit adultery.' [fn]


Mat 5:28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Mat 5:29 So if your eye--even if it is your good eye [fn]--causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.


Mat 5:30 And if your hand--even if it is your stronger hand [fn]--causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.


Mat 5:31 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, `A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce.' [fn]


Mat 5:32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


Mat 5:33 "Again, you have heard that the law of Moses says, `Do not break your vows; you must carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.' [fn]


Mat 5:34 But I say, don't make any vows! If you say, `By heaven!' it is a sacred vow because heaven is God's throne.


Mat 5:35 And if you say, `By the earth!' it is a sacred vow because the earth is his footstool. And don't swear, `By Jerusalem!' for Jerusalem is the city of the great King.


Mat 5:36 Don't even swear, `By my head!' for you can't turn one hair white or black.


Mat 5:37 Just say a simple, `Yes, I will,' or `No, I won't.' Your word is enough. To strengthen your promise with a vow shows that something is wrong. [fn]


Mat 5:38 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, `If an eye is injured, injure the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.' [fn]


Mat 5:39 But I say, don't resist an evil person! If you are slapped on the right cheek, turn the other, too.


Mat 5:40 If you are ordered to court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too.


Mat 5:41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, [fn] carry it two miles.


Mat 5:42 Give to those who ask, and don't turn away from those who want to borrow.


Mat 5:43 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Love your neighbor' [fn] and hate your enemy.


Mat 5:44 But I say, love your enemies! [fn] Pray for those who persecute you!


Mat 5:45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too.


Mat 5:46 If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much.


Mat 5:47 If you are kind only to your friends, [fn] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that.

Mat 5:48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

You quote at length a masterpiece of Paul about how the reading of the law still to this day leaves a veil over their face. Yes...that's right!

Blessings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 14, 2010 at 2:15pm

Carla, I agree with you. It appears the ideals that Jesus taught were different than following a list of rules or commandments. Those things that Jesus taught do not sound even close to Old Testament Law. What He was teaching is what God intended for us all along. He confused those who taught the Law because at times He seemed in their eyes to be breaking the Law of Moses.

What I would like to focus on is something Jesus said before He left the disciples. Note:

Jn 16:12-15 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. NIV

Jesus is speaking of a day when He will have left them and the Holy Spirit would have come. Jesus had said to the Jews that believed, "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Even after His resurrection we see that the Jews were still not free. Jesus is letting us know that He had not given the entire message to the disciples. Jesus told them they still had much to learn but at this time they were not ready for it. The Greek word there would indicate to us they still had an abundance of information coming. He had only begun to scratch the surface with them. Jesus intended for them to know the truth and through that truth they would be free. He was already free even though He did keep the Law. The disciples and the rest had a long way to go before they would find freedom.

This is why I like Paul so much. I believe through Paul we are getting that information necessary to experience the freedom Jesus promised to those who learned. We get some revelation through Peter (who was used in other ways) and some through the loved disciple John but the truths that really set us free came through Paul. I believe Paul is Jesus speaking to us. He was His vessel to give us that which was needed for freedom. Jesus did not come to make us Jewish converts, He came to make us children of God and as such take on His nature.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on July 14, 2010 at 2:52pm

Amen Roy.. Beautifully said. I hope everyone reads your comment!

Blessings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by John Lemmon on July 14, 2010 at 11:37pm

Hi Roy,

Let me add a couple other things to this discussion if I may.

Paul said in Col 1:24-26;
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
25 of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,
26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints.

He seems to indicate here that he is fullfilling the ministry that Christ began with the disciples & bringing it to completion. He certainly had the background & training to do this given his past life in Judaism & through the leading of the Holy Spirit could open up the mystery hidden for ages.

As for the other disciples, I believe they had this knowledge as well, for we see that Paul visited the apostles and elders in Jerusalem some seventeen years after his conversion. At that time he laid the gospel he was teaching the Gentiles before them and wrote in Gal 2:7-9:

"...when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised
8 (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles),
9 and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised"

So it was evident the apostles & elders understood the gospel which they received first-hand from Christ. Indeed it was Paul who was unsure of his teaching and wanted to check with those who were in Christ before him & had learned at the feet of Christ.

It was evident also as you point out that Christ had more to teach the disciples but they were not ready for it. I believe this was the job of the indwelling Holy Spirit who is our personal teacher (John 14:26) and he taught them what they needed to know. To use an analogy, I think Jesus gave them the theory but the Holy Spirit led them through the practice of the teachings of the New Covenant...but this last bit is just my opinion.

Just on the point about "the truth will make you free" we see this scripture used a lot on Christian websites, but free from what? Christ continued on to answer that point in John 8 saying,

32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33 They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, 'You will be made free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin.
35 The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever.
36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

So the freedom that the truth would offer is freedom from sin. Anyone who commits sin is in slavery to sin, and what is sin? Sin is the breaking of the law as John said in 1 John 3:4. So to be truly set free from sin one needs to be set free from the law as well because, "...where there is no law there is no transgression." (Rom 4:15)

What Paul has done is to define how this works, what are the mechanisms & to describe the functioning of the new covenant. In fact the best book of all that shows this is the book he wrote to the Romans. In it he laid out the progression from a sinner in the world through to the completion of the journey of a Christian who is walking in love. He begins with the issues of sin & how it separates us from God. He then covers the issues of the law & moves into why we must be righteous by faith. And through righteousness by faith he shows the power of the blood of Christ & how we are freed from sin & the law through taking on His death in baptism. He then moves into walking in the Spirit & the means by which we conquer the passions of our flesh through the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Fianally he shows us about living in Christ and eventually how we must learn to walk in love with one another.

Romans is truly a brilliant roadmap for understanding the progression through the new covenant from one who is lost in sin to maturity in Christ.

All the best,

Your brother in Christ,
John

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