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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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This is what Ginny stated on page two:
Reply by Ginnybee on June 10, 2010 at 7:47pm
I was referring to a top minister, or leader of a church, such as pastor, reverend, priest, etc., the title depending of course on denomination. Does that help?
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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David,
So, what exactly are the positions in the Church? What would a low ranking position be? a high ranking position? a mid-line position?
This is getting confusing.
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Sharon -
I think Brother John L. gave you a great response and i also see your response, so I will just highlight a portion of His message here.
THE GREATEST IN THE CHURCH SHALL BE THE SERVANT!
This is a beautiful truth. Ministers of the Gospel serve the people of God. The word ministers means servants. It is so much better to give than to receive.
Blessings sis and i pray your head-ache disappears.
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David,
Exactly.
"And whosoever will be first among you, let him be your slave."
So, if man is over the woman who is really the leader?
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Amen to that, Sister!
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Permalink Reply by John Lemmon on
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Hi David,
It seems I may not have read far enough into this thread before putting in my two cents worth if the matters expressed had already been covered.
Still I believe there is compelling evidence to suggest that women do belong in ministry and can or should hold positions of office in the church. Thus my previous post to which I would add the following.
The section you quote in Gal 3:23-28 speaks about the difference between a life in the faith in Christ and confinement under the law (see vs. 23). Now prior to the coming of faith, distinctions were made between Jew & Greek, slave & free, male & female and so on. But now in Christ these distinctions cease to exist for in Christ we are all one as the scripture clearly shows in vs 28. You have emphasised the distinction between Jew & Greek but seem to be playing down the importance of the other distinctions, including the male/female aspect, which have also been removed in Christ. (I may be reading this wrong so please accept my apologies if that is the case).
When we then look at the gifts from God to the church in Eph 4:11 saying, "...his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers..." then it is evident that women did and do indeed fulfill these ministries, for the gift comes from God to do this work and not from men. It was evident that women fulfilled many of these ministries in the bible as we saw women in prophecy (eg. the four daughters of Phillip the Evangelist Acts 21:8). We saw also the woman at the well with Jesus who left and evangelised in her home village and many believed because of her testimony (John 4:39-42). I have already mentioned that the most important teaching of the Christian faith (resurrection) was first entrusted to a woman (Mary Magdalene) to preach to the disciples after Jesus was raised, and the Jesus upbraided the disciples for their unbelief in this woman's words (Mark 16:9-14). We see also an interesting comment from Paul in his closing greetings to the Colossians where he sends a greeting to "...Nympha and the church in her house." (Col 4:15) What was Nympha's ministry as she was certainly the prominent member of the church & clearly in a position of leadership to be accorded such a greeting. If there was a man leading the group he would certainly have said something like, "...greetings to Charlie (or whatever) and the church in his care..."
So in all of this we see that women certainly ministered most of the gifts from God that He gave to the church. I would not then suggest that women could not be in positions of authority in the church when it is clear that God himself has used women prominently in the ministry to the church.
But as to positions of authority it is clear that elders and deacons are appointed not by God but by the church. (1 Tim 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9) It is also evident that even though in Timothy it says, "Let deacons be the husband of one wife..." (1 Tim 3:12), there were certainly women who were deacons as Paul addresses Phoebe (a sister) at Cen'chre-ae as such (Rom 16:1). I believe also that John addressed the woman to whom he wrote his second letter as, "The elder elect lady..." (2 John 1) as I discussed in my previous post.
About the only role I cannot see in scripture where a woman was appointed was in the role of an Apostle, which is not to say that there were none, I just can't see any and if you know of any...help me out. Perhaps that may be the one role God gave only to men...but I find it hard to believe that to be the case as I maintain that in Christ all are equal, God is totally impartial and He gives his gifts to those who are best equipped to use them whether male or female.
We know that God shows no partiality but has set us all free in Christ. We all have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God and we have all received the grace of God & the free gift of righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ and God makes no distinctions between any of mankind (Rom 3:22-23), unlike in pre-Christ times. So if God shows no distinctions in any other way, why do we make distinctions when it comes to ministry &/or the holding of office? What right do we have to make distinctions when God does not show partiality nor make distinctions amongst men (or women) in Christ?
In the final analysis some will accept that women can and should be in ministry and some people will not. I hoped here to present some scriptural evidence that women can be in ministry & in positions of office as there is evidence in the bible to strongly suggest there should be no distinction on the basis of gender.
There will be more to be said on this & the discussion will continue for many years. I put this matter into the hands of God & through prayer & study hope the Lord reveals to those who are not yet convinced either way. My purpose is not to argue but to show a perspective that may be new to some...but perhaps not all.
I wish you God's grace always.
Yours in Christ,
John Lemmon
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Hey John,
I visited your web page and enjoyed listening to the "Walking with Christ" message. It is great to have you here beloved.
">>but seem to be playing down the importance of the other distinctions, including the male/female aspect,"
Your observation did not offend me at all and thank you for proving into it. Jesus elevated the status of woman. Christianity does much to dispel any erroneous thoughts that men have supremacy over woman. That is what I see there.
>>"When we then look at the gifts from God to the church in Eph 4:11 saying,"
As I am sure you are aware, whenever we study a subject as the one at hand, we look upon the whole counsel of the word of God. Though it is true that Eph. 4 does not specify that the ministry gifts are only for males, other verses do.
We are all called to prophecy and evangelize. One thing is to do it as we have been commanded by God to do so and another all together to hold the ministry office by God's calling and enablement. So woman prophesying and evangelizing is completely ok. As far as woman holding the office of a prophet or an evangelist there are no biblical examples. We also have to keep in mind that the word prophecy has multiple meanings and we would have to look at context to determine how the verse is to be interpreted in each individual occurrence.
">>we saw also the woman at the well with Jesus who left and evangelized in her home village and many believed because of her testimony (John 4:39-42)."
I do not think this woman even knew she was evangelizing. She felt the Grace of God and with the passion of a new born babe (Christian) she went out to tell of the messiah. But I do not believe she held the office of an evangelist. We are all called to evangelize and even prophecy, which at times simply means to speak God's word.
>>I have already mentioned that the most important teaching of the Christian faith (resurrection) was first entrusted to a woman (Mary Magdalene) to preach to the disciples after Jesus was raised,
To say she went to preach to them is a far stretch from what scripture says.
Mark 16:9-10 (American Standard Version)
9 Now when he was risen early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. 10 She went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
>>"...Nympha and the church in her house." (Col 4:15) What was Nympha's ministry as she was certainly the prominent member of the church & clearly in a position of leadership to be accorded such a greeting.
Nothing there to lead me to believe that she was a pastor or teacher or any of the other ministry positions.
>>If there was a man leading the group he would certainly have said something like, "...greetings to Charlie (or whatever) and the church in his care..."
The absence of evidence is hardly ever evidence in its self.
>>But as to positions of authority it is clear that elders and deacons are appointed not by God but by the church. (1 Tim 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9) It is also evident that even though in Timothy it says, "Let deacons be the husband of one wife..." (1 Tim 3:12), there were certainly women who were deacons as Paul addresses Phoebe (a sister) at Cen'chre-ae as such (Rom 16:1).
The term "diakonos" is used of an office with special requirements that women cannot meet. "Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain," (1 Tim. 3:8). And, "Let deacons be husbands of only one wife [lit. one woman man'] and good managers of their children and their own households," (1 Tim. 3:12). See also Phil. 1:1.
There were deaconesses, so there can be female elders and pastors, some say?
First of all, the word "deacon" διάκονος (diakonos) and its cognates occur 31 times in the NT and is used in many different ways. Paul calls himself a minister (diakonos) of the gospel in Col. 1:23, 25. Paul went to Jerusalem to serve (diakonos) the saints, (Rom. 15:25). Mary spoke to the servants (diakonos) at the wedding in Cana (John 2:5). It is used of serving tables (Luke 17:8 and Acts 6:2). Jesus came not to be served, but to serve (diakonos), (Mark 10:45). The government is called a minister (diakonos) of God (Rom. 13:4). Tychicus is a minister (diakonos) of the Lord (Col. 4:7) as is Timotheus (1 Thess. 3:2).
Rom. 16:1 says, "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea." Many argue that since Pheobe is called a deacon, then it means women are eligible to hold the formal office of deacon. But this is not conclusive at all. Phoebe is simply called a servant (diakonon) which can be rendered differently in different Bibles: "minister" (Darby, YLT), "servant" (ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB, NIV, NKJV), "helper" (NCV), "deacon" (NLT, NRSV), and "deaconess" (RSV).
I am enjoying your comments bro and the spirit behind them
Be bless and a blessing.
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G'day! John,
I went back to read the Colossians 4:15 passage because it did not sound like Paul to be greeting woman without including their husband's in the salutation.
I found that some manuscripts have the masculine name (Nymphas) rather than the feminine form (Nympha).
Colossians 4:15 (American Standard Version)
15 Salute the brethren that are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church that is in their house.
Colossians 4:15 (King James Version)
15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
So i would not make or break a case with this one scripture.
Blessing beloved
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Hi David,
"Your observation did not offend me at all"
Glad to hear it as there was never, nor will there ever be any offence meant when I write in this or any other forum. I will write only what I have seen or the Lord has shown me, and I recognise that not everyone will have the same POV as myself. I think Paul put it best when he said, "Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind." (Rom 14:5) I know he was talking about other matters, but he was showing a principle that if someone/anyone is worshipping or doing something in honour of the Lord and gives thanks to Him, it is acceptable.
This subject we are discussing is a prickly one amongst Christians the world over. I have been looking at Christian sites & the old newsgroups now since the mid-1990's & this subject along with a few others is always a hot topic.
I have been praying about this matter in the last few days & had some interesting thoughts to the extent that the Lord is leading me in a different direction regarding this & other common topics where disputes & disagreements arise. I'd be interested in your opinions.
First, arguments between people over topics like this do not promote peace, joy and the love of the brethren. Rather they often lead to disharmony and confusion. When that occurs we need to remember that "God is not a God of confusion" (1 Cor 14:33) If confusion & disharmony arise as is often the case with hot topics like this, where is the confusion coming from? Not God...that's for sure! My thoughts were that when this occurs it moves people further away from the truth, & I'm sure you would agree that is the work of Satan.
Second, If greater minds than ours over the decades have not found a resolution to this issue from the scriptures (& that is where the truth can be found), then we need to ask whether it is important to know anyway? If the Lord has not made it clear, is it really relevant? And by relevant I mean, will knowing the answer to whether a woman can or cannot be in a position of leadership in the church lead anyone to salvation or not. If it was necessary to know the answer to this question the Lord would provide it clearly in the scripture.
Now I am not saying this as a cop-out, but as a means of putting this issue into proper perspective. For example, is it more important to know the answer to this issue than to be baptised, or receive the holy spirit, or to understand repentance or to have faith, or to recognise the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? When you take that kind of perspective, where knowing these other things are important to our salvation & walk with God, then the huge arguments across Christendom over women in ministry fade into insignificance. Taking my first point above, I believe that Satan has thrown this issue into the church for the express purpose of having Christians take their eyes off the "main game" which is to focus on Jesus Christ.
From my perspective I believe the Lord does provide for women in ministry & positions of authority & I have no reason to question myself over that matter. But in all truth, for me it is such a small matter that it really doesn't register in comparison to the important things of Christianity that will lead me to salvation. In the end when I stand before the judgement seat of God, it will not be on the basis of the answer to this issue that will see me accepted, but faith in Jesus Christ.
I hope I have not offended you in this or anyone else reading these comments...that is not my intention. But I also do not want to go on arguing a case about something that in the full scheme of things will not lead me or anyone else to salvation.
In the end if I am wrong, the Lord will convince me of that & if I am right I will give thanks that he saw fit to entrust me with a small morsel of knowledge, albeit an unimportant one.
My third point about this matter is that...what is it that drives the argument over women in ministry or authority anyway? When we come to Christ we do not come seeking places of power or authority, at least I am not. We come to find Christ because we recognise we need a saviour to set us free from our sins. If any woman or man for that matter is looking at Christianity as a means of authority over others, then they have got it all wrong. In Christ we are all brothers & sisters...equal. The Lord said that, "he who is the greatest among you shall be your servant." (Matt 23:11) So if the argument is about power and authority, then the focus is all wrong. To be great in the Lord is to serve & we do not need to have a position of authority to do that, whether man or woman.
Anyway, I thought it better responding in this way rather than dragging out an argument where I don't want one and which will not upbuild others. Those who may want to argue and have dissensions about this & other issues have missed the point of Christianity, and the value that can be gained from this community we are sharing in now. There is no value in it as it will not lead to greater blessings but only more dispute.
Again I hope this does not offend in any way & if I have caused concern with my words, please forgive me.
Your brother in Christ,
John Lemmon
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Beloved,
I think John means to say that this is an issue which Satan uses (as he does many others) to bring about unnecessary divisions among us.
That however does not mean God does not want us to talk about such issues or endeavor to align ourselves to the truth about the issue.
Christianity is going through some real hard times because of statements as the one below:
I believe that Satan has thrown this issue into the church for the express purpose of having Christians take their eyes off the "main game" which is to focus on Jesus Christ.
To focus on Jesus Christ is to focus on all his teachings so we can obey His commandments and be pleasing to Him.
Where do we get such attitude or thoughts from? I tell you from where; from a world that SCREAMS tolerance is the way of the walk, from a world bombarded with nonsense philosophies as relativism.
Satan did not write the bible. God wrote it. Satan has not thrown this issue into the church. God has through His holy word. It is our task to abide in scripture, to seek out the truth. This topic is not one that is beyond comprehension and we should all learn how to talk about these issues without becoming rude or offensive.
To say this topic has been thrown out by Satan to take our focus off of Jesus is _______ ok I will be nice, it’s insane. God put the topic in the word so we would do according to His will.
Where do statements like that one come from? It comes from people who care more about not upsetting anyone then about doctrine, theology, truth or to learn how to exercise self control when discussing such issues.
Am I saying Brother John does not care about doctrine or theology? I am not, for I do not know him that well to make such a statement. It is obvious to me that he loves God. I just don’t like that statement much hahaha as is probably very obvious. We now live in a Christian world where doctrine does not matter much. Is all about not upsetting each other. I am not into upsetting people, but I do love to edify and edifying is correcting erroneous believes at times.
Blessings.
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Hannah,
Divisions are not always from Satan. Thank God for the Reformers. Who divided from the Roman Catholic Church. Some paid with their lives. God calls us to divide from the world and from those who teach another Gospel. Have you noticed that in the gospels when great crows where following Jesus he would turn to them and say something so radical that most of them would turn away? The Truth is not always easy to swallow at times and it causes many to turn away or divide. No one desires divisions, but they are a reality we live with due to human pride.
This topic should not divide us. I am extremely interested on pounding a few things upon my family.
Let’s learn to discuss this issue and all others in love and let's not run from the truth when confronted with it, be willing to change our erroneous views. LT did not warn me personally. He spoke to the group in general.
I think John is right about keeping our eyes on Jesus as well, but i think his statement that makes Satan the author of the topic is completely wrong.
Blessings
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