DOES ONE GOD MAKE A TRINITY?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rev. Dr. Michael Dickson on January 30, 2010 at 3:45pm

Howdy Douglas!

I read your post here with great interest. You said quote "I have been analyzing the concept of the trinity for some time."EOQ

Well, That is very good. Studying the Trinity is a very powerful study.

You said quote "I went back to the roots of christianity."EOQ

Again, That is very good but, You did not go back far enough. You need to go back to to roots of Judaism.

You said quote "It seems that this concept was created over time."EOQ

Actually, The Concept of the Trinity has always been from of old, from everlasting. See Micah 5:2, Hebrews 13:8, John 10:30, and Malachi 3:6.

You said quote "It was molded over a few hundred years and as time went on it seemed that we were giving in to the world instead of presenting truth.EOQ

Actually, The Concept of the Trinity has never gone through a molding over a few hundred years. God is timeless and so is the Concept of the Trinity. Before time began, God is. After time began, God is and He showed Himself to several people in the Old Testament to prove who He was, is, and shall always be. Fascinating isn't.

Here is an exercise for you...The Word of the Lord came unto me saying. Study this statement and learn it very well. There is a very powerful truth here. When You do your homework, You will be greatly Blessed by God with knowledge and wisdom you have never had.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

Permalink Reply by Douglas A Pavone on January 31, 2010 at 4:58pm

The concept of the oneness of God has been since the creation. The concept of polytheism has as well.The presentation of the trinity has been a platform that Lucifer has used to interject ploytheism into the church. God is one not three. God has shown himself as the father in creation the son in redemption and the spirit in his church but his oneness is his spirit this is the God that is within all. For he is the lord he changes not. Jesus Christ was the first born of all creation. He was the word that God created and through his word all things were created. His birth was foretold in malachi as well as in the psalms and most quoted in Isiah. Jesus Christ the word taken flesh the same yesterday and today and forever.Jesus and the father are one, one in spirit one in conscousness one in mind.This is the oneness of God within the concept of the father son and holy spirit. The spirit being manefested in three ways not three people.This is the concept you call the trinity that has been since the beginning of time not three persons but one spirit in three roles not seperate but one.

Permalink Reply by Rev. Dr. Michael Dickson on January 31, 2010 at 8:57pm

Howdy Douglas!

You said quote "The concept of the oneness of God has been since the creation.EOQ

I have a question for you. Why did Moses write Elohiym in Genesis 1:1? At this time, Did Moses know something that you are struggling with? The Bible says that God appeared to Moses and 70 other men with Moses and ate with them on Mount Sinai. And, Elohiym means plural, i.e. more than one. Just remember John 1:1 The Word, John 14:1 The Father, and John 14:26 The Holy Spirit.

You said quote "The concept of polytheism has as well."EOQ

The Israelites in the Old Testament practiced Monotheism. You really need to do a deep Bible Study in Judaism. And, Within the teaching of Monotheism, They knew there were Three because many saw with their own eyes.

You do realize what many Christians today do with eye witness accounts? Here are the very powerful answers...

1) They ignore them.
2) They choose not to believe the eye witness accounts in the Bible and teach contrary to these eye witness accounts.

You said quote "The presentation of the trinity has been a platform that Lucifer has used to interject ploytheism into the church."EOQ

The Reason why Lucifer does what he does in the Christian Church is because many Christians do not study Judaism. They stop at the roots of Christianity and go no further. And, Satan loves it.

You said quote "God is one not three. God has shown himself as the father in creation the son in redemption and the spirit in his church but his oneness is his spirit this is the God that is within all.EOQ

Once again, Why do you repeat yourself? The Bible is very clear. Elohiym means plural. I cannot change that and neither can you. If you truly do not understand the term Elohiym, I can understand that.

But, Do not write anything contrary to the Holy Word of God without checking out all of the information first. This is how false teaching creeps into the Christian Church. Because, Christians do not do their homework. They just simply parrot things they hear or read without checking out all information.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

There is a very powerful reason why God says...And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob has sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Exodus 3:15. You do see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as three persons? Get the picture here?

Allow me a moment to show you what I am talking about. You said quote "God is one not three".EOQ

Well, The Bible says in 1 John 5:7 There are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, The Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are One.

The Bible does not say...I say again...The Bible does not say...There is One that bears record in Heaven, The One God, and this One God is One. The Bible never says this. Not one time from Genesis to Revelation.

Now, Let us take a look at Genesis 18:1-2. The Bible says...

1. And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2. And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

The LORD appeared unto Abraham in the plains of Mamre as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day. And, Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and lo, The LORD stood by him. The LORD appeared to Abraham in 3 persons clothed in flesh. Then, Abraham ran to meet them, that is the LORD in 3 persons, from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground.

One very important point to make here. In the presence of The LORD, Abraham had enough sense not to bow down before The LORD in the presence of 2 angels. Why? The Lord would have had to kill him.

Instead, Abraham had enough sense and Love for the LORD to recognize Elohiym who came to visit him and bowed down to all three clothed in flesh. Why? Because, This Visitation to Abraham was not the first. This is why Abraham ran to meet the three men, i.e. The LORD, clothed in flesh. The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

You said quote "God is one not three"EOQ Have you thought about telling that to Abraham? The reason I ask is because the Bible is very clear. Because, Abraham saw Three. Not One! Genesis 18:1-2 proves that 1 John 5:7 is correct and Bible. The most wonderful point for me is...You cannot change this.

And, Abraham is not the only human being on this planet that The Word of the Lord appeared to in the Old Testament. The Lord appeared to Adam in the Garden of Eden. The Lord appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai. The Lord appeared to Isaiah. The Lord appeared Jeremiah. And, Every person that the Lord appeared to in the Old Testament, Each person saw three. Not one.

You said quote "He was the word that God created and through his word all things were created."EOQ

Jesus Christ has always existed with His Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ has never been created. That argument is a favorite of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They teach that Jesus Christ is not eternal but was created by God. This teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses is false.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

Permalink Reply by Praise2RevealurFaith on November 30, 2010 at 5:18pm

Thank you, I am so glad to see that someone undertands th true concept of "Trinity". Your statement could not have been explained better.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on January 31, 2010 at 10:43pm

Douglas,

We have discussed the Trinity here at AAG on multiple blogs, forum discussions and groups. I have no problem discussing it here at all, but I do encourage you to check out our most recent discussion of it:

http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/trinity-1

Again I do not mind discussing it here and I am glad to have you among us, but most of my responses I will cut and paste from my previous discussions of the subject. I pray you don't find that disrespectful, it is just that time is short and there are so many good discussions all around this community.

I see Rev. Dickson is doing a great job discussing the issue as well.

Your electricity, lamp and light example, along with the water in three forms references have been used before thousands of times, because they are good ways to get our point across about the deity, but we all know they fall very short in describing Our transcendent God.

I DO BELIEVE GOD IS THREE PERSONS. GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
JESUS WAS NOT CREATED AS YOU SEEMED TO BELIEVE. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG. You BELIEVE THAT Jesus was created? I used capitals for emphasis only and not to denote a higher tone friend, so please do not think I am yelling ok.

God is not a cloud, not even close. You may want to say, i will use a cloud to get an idea across, but God is Spirit and He is three persons.

Yes, the word trinity is not in the bible. Godhead and Deity are. The concept and proof of the deity of God are in the Word.

I will wait for you to answer the questions I posted here to move forward in view that Michael already dealt with the issues you brought up.



dv

Permalink Reply by Tia Darling Martin on June 26, 2010 at 2:52pm

I don't think that if you worship the Father Son or Spirit separately that you are a polytheist, they are one in the same, I don't understand if you do admit to believing the Father, Son and Spirit are one, then what are you objecting to? Also I want to take this term vessel, for Jesus very lightly. He was a vessel in the same way we are to be vessels for Gods work, but this does not mean He is not the light. He claims for Himself to be the Way the Truth AND the Light, so He is a (human) man chosen to be a vessel, as we are also to be, as well as completely Divine; God Himself. The separate names Father Son and Spirit should not offend you because they are not a fiction created by a mistaken Christian, God gives Himself the separate status, not to confuse us but that we might understand, in our human level something vast and indescribable. You seem to do well in understanding it yourself, as much as any natural creature CAN understand the Divine.

C.S. Lewis makes an admiral attempt by describing our human level as something like two-dimensional, and the Spiritual as three-dimensional.

"The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one "being," and any two persons are two separate "beings"-- just as, in two dimensions (say on flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still do find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while still remaining one Being, just as a cube is a combination of six squares while remaining one cube." ~from The Three-Personal God

My understanding was always that I can be a mother a sister and a daughter and still be me, but Jesus' claims requires something deeper and incomprehensible to our world. This book really gave me what I was looking for.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 7, 2010 at 8:14pm

I was reading these posts and learned and impressed. I wondered as I read the initial post how someone could read the Bible and then come to the conclusion the author did. What in in the world is the cloud business? That sounds like mysticism or something. I was very grateful for Dickson's post. I pray that Douglass comes to know the God of the Bible. This is very sad.

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 9, 2011 at 7:13pm

Very disappointing:

Phil 2:5-7

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature  God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature  of a servant,
being made in human likeness. NIV

 

Phil 2:5-7

5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

6 Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.  NLT

In order to deny that Jesus is the eternal God, one has to completely deny Scripture. Kneeling, you are completely denying who Jesus is. This is very disappointing.

Permalink Reply by Karen Leon on February 14, 2011 at 6:56am

I believe Jesus knew fully before He was conceived in Mary's womb who He was and what was coming.  While an infant, He may not have been aware.  We do not really have enough in Scripture to tell us more.  

Roger, do you have a Scriptural basis for your statement that the Holy Spirit did not use one of Mary's eggs?  If He didn't, then how is Jesus fully human?  I always thought the idea of Him being born--coming as an infant was so that we would know He was fully human and not just God in human form that we could see.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 9, 2011 at 7:14pm

I am wondering if a person like Douglas should be allowed on this site. However, I guess if someone is capable of being led astray, somehow that is just going to happen. What a shame!

Permalink Reply by Douglas A Pavone on October 25, 2010 at 10:40am

Reverend Dickson:

I appoligize for not responding to your post for so much time. All things come to good for those who love God and are called according to his purpose. The concept of the trinity has been around for longer than two thousand years. It was around with the Egytians in their trinity of Osirus,Isis and Horus. It was also with the Babylonian trinity Nimrod,Simeramus and Tammuz,and finally with the Hindu trinity Brama,Vishnu and Sheva.This triune concept was nothing new but what was new was true monotheism which was established in Judaism.

The term you hold onto is the word Elohim. This word is in fact a plural of the word El, or Eloha.The plural term seems to come before the singular in its use but nonetheless it does not say trinity no matter your desire for it to do so. It usage says God is omnipresent and his majesty is in his plurality, your rush to embrace the trinity has blinded you to this. This interpretation correctly presented follows the monotheism and one God concept taught throughout the five books of Moses .It has been embraced by jewish scholors for thousands of years and more and more non Jewish theologeans as the trinitarian grip loosens.

The term Elohim has been used throughout Genesis the use of words that denote singularity have as well. The word Eloha and El have been used in certain areas of the bible, also but predominantly the plural of Gods majesty Elohim.The use of he and I and him are singular terms meaning one and only one.When God refers to himself he uses the word I and when he is talking to his Angels he uses the word us and our.God uses the word us in Genesus 1 26 . Here he is talking to Angels his supreme ministers of his word,not to the other persons as you see it in the trinity.Here he is giving them orders on what they shall do and how they will serve him. This is later explained and directy connected to Genesis 3 22-24 when he ordered these two mighty angels(cherubims) to guard the entrance to the garden of eden. In Genesis 18 1-2 our God appeared to Abraham. Not as you strain to prove trinitarian connection with his three persons in the trinity, but himself with two angels of the type mentioned above. In the king James version it says in the heading for chapter 18 and Abraham entertains angels, not the meeting of Abraham and the trinity.To conclusively prove he was talking to angels and a singular Lord we go to Gensis 18 22. Here it says the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom:but Abraham stood yet before the Lord. So God ,our singular God stood before abraham. His two angels went foreward, his Angels not the other two persons in the trinity.Chapter 19 verse 1 of Genesis puts the final connecting verse that invalidates the flawed trinitarian interpretation. And there came two Angels to Sodom at even:and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them: and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. He bowed to them just as Abraham bowed to God when he was with these same two Angels as a sign of respect .God speaking to angels and directing them to do his bidding is also shown with king Uzziah in Isaiah 6 verses 1-8 here Isaiah takes the role that our God had for his angels, again angels not members of the trinity.This analogy of yours is upon first glance compelling but in the light of the chapter and of the bible as a whole it is found wanting.

You use the scripture 1 John 5:7 as a validation of the trinity and its direct reference in the word of God.This is a scriptural text that has been found to be added and has been refuted by theologeons for hundreds if not thousands of years.Its interesting that you could have used any scripture to validate your beliefs and you chose one that has been proven to be a counterfeit.This brings a poor light to your whole argument and your understanding of the scriptures as a whole.

The last point is you quote that everytime God has appeared to Mosus to Adam and to Isaiah and Jeremiah each and every time each person saw three and not one. You again have shown yourself wanting in your comprehension of the scripture and do more harm to your case than help. Mosus saw God first as the bush that did not burn.He saw him as the cloud by day and the fire by night. Isiah saw God in heaven surrounded by his seraphim.Adam did not see God but heard the sound of his footsteps in the garden.In Jeremiah God does in fact communicate with Jeremiah but he is not seen at all in either one person or in three as you state.

You also state that our God is the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Are you serious that you believe that this means that each one of the trinity is a God for each of the three men listed? I see these three men as three persons but this has no relation to the trinity or to our God being three persons.

Jesus Christ as the man the fleshly being was in fact created or did you forget? He was in fact created in an immaculate way with Mary being the mother and our God in his true form a spirit being being his father.He existed as the word a part of God the part he used to create the universe the word eternally.This word which was in fact God part of God and one with God and was God.His physical body was irrefutably created ,but his spirit was always the father and thus God.,


Sir you throw out scripture with an arrogance and i know most people dont even check to see its validity since you put yourself up as a Reverend and a doctor.The bible says i will use the weak things of the world to bring down the mighty and the foolish to bring down those who are wise. And those who are cast down and despised these i will choose.

My intention was not to be antagonistic but to point out the fact that God exalts the humble and humbles those who exalt themselves.In the first commandment God says have no other Gods besides me. I believe this with all my heart. I also live with the true defenition of monotheism and i have been seeking to prove that since our heavenly father sent me to Jesus.

When he did I wept and i said Jesus i am not worthy the love of God washed over me and i felt love beyond any experience i had before. This changed my life. But i still worship God the father alone as he said in the first commandment. I do call on the name of Jesus as well and i know Gods spirit dwells within me as old things have passed away. I have been blessed to come from homelessness from addiction from incarseration to being back with my wife and child blessed beyond my ability to comprehend. I love God and i love my lord and savior but to me scripturally proven there is one God and father and one lord Jesus Christ.There is no trinity because the trinity is three persons and three spirits .This is not momotheism it is cleverly consealed polytheism

This is eternal life to know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

May God richly bless you

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 29, 2010 at 7:26pm

Amen,KneelingB4Jesus.
I really like that Rev'5:6 reference.Can you imagine yourself in the place of John and actually witness this and see it with his eyes?
Here are some examples to add to this:

Matthew 17:5 " While he yet spake,behold,a bright cloud overshadowed them:and behold a voice out of the cloud,which said,This is beloved Son,in whom I am well pleased;hear ye him."

This is while Jesus was present with Peter,James and John,and reveals Father God speaking of Jesus,His Son and our Lord and Saviour,clearly demonstrating two of the three persons (of the Godhead) together.
Just as an add.This cloud was not an overshadowing cloud (it was bright),but the Shechinah cloud of God's presence which surrounded and spread over them (1 Kings 8:10,11, Ezekiel 1:4).

Matthew 3:16,17 " And Jesus,when he was baptized,went up straightway out of the water:and,lo,the heavens were opened unto him,and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove,and lighting upon him:
And lo a voive from heaven,saying,This is my beloved Son,in whom I am well pleased."

Here we have at the baptism of Jesus,the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit! The three Persons of the Godhead together. Three distinct persons in the one divine essence of the Godhead.

Sojourner.

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