All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
TO SPRINKLE OR IMMERSE ?
A problem I come across, particularly in Infant Sprinkling, is that most people use the term "The Baptism of babies." when in fact we should be saying: "Sprinkling a Baby"
Some may argue: "What difference does it make?
Well as we all know, how wrong terminology can create confusion.
The only church I know of, that baptizes (immerses) babies, are the Greek Churches.
They do this to follow a distinct command:
<b><i>"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, <b>baptizing</b> them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19</i></b>
Who knows better than the Greek when he reads "<i><b>Baptizo</b></i>". There is no doubt in their minds what they have to do. They immerse their babies.
Whether immersing babies as well as adults is correct? That is another discussion - We will leave that for another day.
It is a pity that the Translators of the New Testament when translating the term <b>"Baptizo"</b>did not use the correct term "Immerse" as written in the Greek.
I believe, that by the time manuscripts were gathered in order to have them all in one book in order to translate them from the Koine Greek into English; People had already started Sprinkling their babies.
The reason why, was that families became concerned as to what happened to their babies that had died and had not been Baptised (Immersed)? The practice was then born, and Babies were possibly at first immersed and then for convenience or to ease a mother's fears of her baby drowning, they started to Sprinkle.
This all took place before these manuscripts were translated into English.
The Translators did not want to get into heavy theological arguments over the correct terminology regarding the term "Baptizo", so rather than correctly translate the word to "Immerse" they "Anglicized" the word to "Baptism"
Hence today we have millions of people, Christians and Non Christians Going against God's Word
Sprinkling their babies, which God never instructed them to do.
This change has broken down the true ramifications of Immersion and gone against the Commandment God gave us and that is to Immerse Believers as a sign of Being buried with Christ and raising up out of the watery grave to a new life.. Other than this Baptism (Immersion) has no hidden "extras" that God will bestow on people. It simply shows obedience to God's instruction which was given to all who believed.
Amongst all Baptists and many other denominations, this is known and called "Believers Baptism" because it requires Believers to understand and accept what they are doing and what they have personally committed themselves to. Babies are unable to make this commitment and parents can't do it for them.
In Addittion:
Should one wish to take a baby to the Church font and Sprinkle the child, or get into a discussion on the subject, they hjave every right to do so. But unless the right terms are used on the subject; namely baptize or Sprinkle, the observer or reader becomes confused. Simply because both parties are giving different arguments on Baptism,and both continually use the same word: "Baptism". Little wonder there is so much confusion on this subject.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Good point and reminder Ama.
Love you sis.
LT - Praise God beloved. Well said.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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How right you are Amanda.
We must also remember that God in dealing with mankind, will give them every chance to accept Christ as Saviour, only before they die and go into etenity......... My concern and fear is, that as they stand before God at the Judgment throne, they will look at me and say: "But Ron, you knew about this..... and you never said a word!"
"Go into the world and Preach the Gospel to every Creature" mark 16:15
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Hi Amanda, Don't blame me, I never set the rules regarding salvation.
Naturally, should one incorrectly believe doctrines similar to the Tribulation period, or when is the time the rapture will take place or Armageddon, it will not affect your salvation. These are not Salvation verses.
But If I consider the verse you mentioned... Romans 10:9... It is not merely confessing with my mouth the Lord Jesus (Many do that every day but that does not mean they are saved) One has to continue reading through to verse 10 which says: "With the heart, man believes unto righteousness" It is not the mind Amand, but the heart.. I have listened to many folk speak of loving Christ,, but after awhile as they speak, one can easily discern that their Heart is not in it.
We are told in 1st Tim 3:16 that "ALL scripture has been given to us by God"
No where can I find a passage which says that there are other ways to attain Salvation
No where in Scripture can I find a verse that says: "Don't worry, if you get it all wrong, I'll forgive you any way"
But in Luke 12:48 I do find scripture that says: "But he that knew not and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
It seems to me that while this person has missed out through lack of knowledge, his punishment will be less than those who knew. The important thing to keep in mind is that he will still be punished. Please understand that while Christ died for the entire world, it is achieved only by those who accept and believe it with all their heart.. Otherwise Hey! I'll just do my thing and then beg stupidy or I just did not know or I never realized the implications
Is it possible that a man can know God without having the scriptures? Please read Romans chapter 1verses 19-24. In verse 23 you will read of the millions of educated people today who fit into this verse.
We can rest assured that God has everything in control and when we fully understand everything, we will admit that not one of us could have done it better.
May I close by saying that the Scriptures cannot be studied by taking a verse here and another verse there and make up a doctrine and believe this is the way it must be.
Amanda Keep searching the scriptures and come back with as many questions you like or even criticize the answers you get. and as long as you are looking constantly to God for the truth it will come.
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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Eric,
I do not believe that the lack of understanding the method in which God commanded his children to be 'baptized' into the Lord Jesus- would be greater than grace (meaning that God's grace is exactly the forgiveness of our ignorance).
I agree. If doing Christianity 'right' is what God required for salvation how many of us would indeed be saved?
Sharon. -
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Eric,
There is only one way to enter the "Kingdom of God", from my point of view. Belief and trust of the Lord Jesus Christ. Accepting Him as your Savior. Period.
Circumcision was a command of God for the Jew. It didn't gain entry to Heaven.
Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is in your midst." And so it was, through Him and Him alone. There is no other way.
The thief on the cross went to Paradise with Jesus. Or followed Him, I should say. There was no time for baptism for him.
Baptism is a ritual that we go through to show the world (and ourselves) that we are dying to sin and living for Christ.
God's grace does indeed gain us forgiveness of sin and helps us to keep from committing the same sins over and over. His grace is our unmerited favor with Him. He is our Father, He forgives us when we err.
The story of the prodigal son tells me that if I stray God will welcome me back because I am truly His child. (among other things)
Each person is saved by his own confession. Parentage has nothing to do with it. Yes, I do believe the Holy Spirit works on the hearts of the children but no child is saved because the parent is.
And for your last remark, once again, baptism does NOT save you, regardless of what kind you participate in.
Last but not least, let me say that study of the Bible will give you a completed picture, not bits and pieces of what the truth is. It is necessary to get a good understanding of what God has put in his book and I feel that somehow you aren't connecting God's Word into this picture.
What you have said fits but there is so much more to know about Baptism, circumcision, etc and you need to study to connect the dots.
Blessings as you study that you might have the Word revealed to you.
Rita -
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Permalink Reply by eric cox on
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Sister Rita,
i agree with you 100%. baptism does NOT save you. And that the children are not 'saved' because their parents are. And because of this, i am just asking: what is the importance of baptism (and the mode of how it is accomplished)? It seems that some 'church denominations' hold themselves at a HIGHER status with obedience to God because their baptism was done 'the correct way,' therefore fulfilling the commandment of Jesus in his great commision.
the only point that i am trying to get across here is not that i do not think baptism is unimportant, because i believe it is (for it is all apart of the wedding ceremony)- my point is there are many who are using this 'act of obedience' to find favor with God. (i.e. Luke 18:9-14).
also, any claim 'baptism is an outward sign of an inward confession' and this is the only reason i compare it to circumsision. i know that there is no comparing the two. but when those who claim this 'outward sign' as their confession of entering into God's Kingdom i really have no other comparison.
Jesus, taught how to pray, how to live, good vs. evil, rich vs. poor...but never once did he teach on the importance of baptism and on how to do this correctly. my question: if this is the 'imortant essential and dividing doctrine' of Scripture, Why then was Christ himself so silent on the issue. And if He knew how confusing it would be- why would he not be more clear and teach on this 'act of obedience?'
These are my questions, that i am searching for to bring illumination to me? So Rita, i am searching... but i can not get anyone to answer my questions. So how can i recieve answers if everyone avoids my questions? i am searching for the true understanding and the connecting of the dots :)
In Love and Mercy,
eric -
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Eric,
Somewhere in the Bible it tells us that if we feel something is a sin in our hearts, for us it is sin.
Could it be that the method of baptism is in this category?
We have the laws written on our heart. So, if we believe that any method of baptism is ok for us then it will be okay, but if we believe that anything less than immersion is wrong, then for us it becomes wrong.
God knows our hearts, every corner of them. If sin abides anywhere in it, God knows it's there.
God wants us to be honest with ourselves. I think that we need to follow our hearts and what we have there.
The one thing that God wants us to know is Salvation comes through Christ alone.
I think that baptism is an outward evidence of an inward confession. It gives others an opportunity to see your commitment to Christ, and also lets you "see" it too. -
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Sister Rita,
this i agree with 100%. now we are speaking language of Scripture. the only 'question' i have had with this whole discussion on baptism, is that this understanding was never mentioned during Ron's authoritative stance on 'God's commandments'.
i just think we ought to include these understandings when we are making a statement of 'an oracle of God.' i appreciate your comments and 'heart felt replies.'
I myself have been 'baptized by immersion' at the age of 29 and like a child i really had no idea what it really was all about. But i believe it was God who drew me to the water by His Holy Spirit.
i just ask of all of us believers that we give each other the same respect of 'another's servant' as Paul would put it in Romans.
I believe that your heart is pure because Christ has purified it and has given you the understanding of loving one another the way He does.
It is very nice to speak with you on this matter, and would love to share other thoughts with you regarding Christ's Love for us.
I praise God for His gift of Baptism, that we may know once again His Love for us through the death of His Son and how we can take part in this 2000 years later through baptisms
with His Love and Mercy,
eric -
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Hi Eric,
Please forgive me for not coming back to you earlier.
My PC Broke down and my line into the internet also lost it's ability to communicate. Hence I was left high and dry not knowing what was going on in the world, but I thank Rita who I see has given you sound advice.
I also notice that you are really searching to get as much of God's truth as you can. Therefore God has given all of us a wonderful promise which I pass on to you.
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jer 29:13
I believe that this is what you are doing. You are searching the scriptures daily to see if these things we discuss are in fact the truth. This according to the Scriptures is very noble and I am sure, pleasing in God's sight
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Neither Circumcision or Baptism is required to be right with God in terms of Salvation.
God knows the heart of everyone of us and even in complete disobedience towards the act of Baptism, we will not lose out on Salvation. But Eric there is more than just Baptism. We will definitely lose certain rewards for disobedience to the word of God and let me be very clear here, we will lose rewards for disobedience to the word of God when we do not go out to others and witness, tell, preach to them about the relationship that God wants to have with them and the good news that Christ has paid for any sins they have committed. In other words: "Win souls for the Kingdom"
Imagine how we are going to feel when we stand before the throne next to a friend of ours, and the friend says: "But Ron, you knew all this, why did you not warn me or tell me?" Imagine how we will feel as God turns His gaze on us and in His eyes we see His Son on the cross dying in vain for our friend because we never said a word to Him about Salvation. This Eric - witnessing to people - is far, far more important than obeying God by being baptised by immersion.. So we see that Christianity is not a bed of Roses.
When we come to know the truth, we have to be obedient to everything God instructs us to do and attempt to be like Christ Himself. This is not easy. The easy part I found was simply to be obedient and be immersed (Buried with Christ in Baptism and being raised to a new life) The last part is the most difficult and can only best be accomplished by abiding in Christ continually.
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." Joh 15:4
That verse is well known Eric and I know that you must surely know it, because it has become apparent to both Rita and me that you are a man who loves God's word and attempts to be as obedient to it as much as you possible can.
Continue in the walk you have created for yourself before God and I assure you that the day will come, when you, Rita and I, will hear God say: "Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Mat 25:23
The Lord continue to bless both you and Rita who held the fort here.
Your brother and friend in Christ
Ron -
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Permalink Reply by Michael Vernon McEntire on
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Ron, you said a lot of good things above, things that will strengthen the Body of Christ. However, there is one paragraph that bothers me very much. Therein you imply that some people who otherwise would have been saved will nevertheless be eternally lost because some Christian who could have witnessed to them did not. To me, brother, that seems unbiblical and offensive to the sovereignty of God. Rather, I believe the Scriptures strongly indicate that God by some means or another will send a missionary to everyone who would be saved.
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Hi Michael,
I hear what you are saying and I believe many folk have agonized over this.
One has to be careful here, because it lends itself to further and more dificult questions.
For instance are you saying that God would not send anyone to someone who was not going to be saved? I don't believe you are. Because we know that "Whosoever will, shall be saved."
Another question would be: "So am I able to blame God if I am not saved?" Of course not!
I believe that by His foreknowlege God knows who will respond and those who will not respond to the Gospel message, but we certainly don't. Therefore it is imperative that we take every opportunity to possibly bring people to a Saving knowledge attained through Christ.
The point I was attempting to make is that if we fail in this, then I believe when those who are lost and saved are separated, we will be very aware of our failings in that friends to whom we never witnessed, will be amongst the lost. Obviously they would not have turned to Chist had I spoken to them. But I don't know that now. Hence I witness to all who listen and to those who don't wish to listen and possibly reject me outright, I can only go that far. He/She is then in the Hands of God and I will be innocent of their blood, with no fear of ever being accused of not telling or warning them. By the way..... Never preach below a high rise building!
Folk in the Old Testament believed that to proclaim a message, one had to be ordained, otherwise you spoke in your own strength.
"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" Isa 52:7
The reason that this verse from the Old Testament is placed in the New is to show the importance and necessity” of there being messengers of salvation. We the people of the street, not only Pastors etc; but together, we are the recognized messengers and yes, I agree that God will determine, that those whom He knows will be obedient to the gospel call, He will make sure that they Hear the gospel. My aim is to make sure that this is not brought about by my indifference to delivering the message. "Who will go? Here am I Lord, send me.
Excellent subject my brother.... Why not put it out to the group?
The Lord Bless you,
Ron. -
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This is the best response to our Christian brethren who may be scandalized by the Catholic Christian method of infant baptism:
We are implying: that you may love people, take care of the orphans, widows, those in need, those in prison, those who are sick, hurt, and loveless- but will burn in hell (or maybe squeeze into heaven but miss out on the 'greater rewards' {maybe the cars or mansions he will be handing out on 'awards night in Heaven'})- simply because we missed the 'correct' mode of baptism?
Amen! -
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