All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Do we Possess three entities namely a "Body" "Soul" and "Spirit"?
I need to hear from members on AAG, what they understand by the terms "Body" "Soul" and "Spirit" Let's look forward to a lively discussion as to your impression and beliefs on the subject.
"Do men and women possess three entities, namely a "Body" that possesses a "Soul" and a "Spirit"?
The Lord Bless all on AAG
Ron.
Views: 988
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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Praise God!
I just knew if we stayed on this subject long enough, we would get the answer we were looking for,
Because if you will go back and read all of the responses on this subject; I think you will find that we do posses all three entities, “Spirit” “Soul” and “Body” (flesh or carnal mindedness.)
Because I believe that all three has been demonstrated here in this thread.
By their fruit ye shall know them.
Joe
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Tim,
Let's look at two scriptures here.
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
and
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Tim, If Enoch pleased God, why would God 'take him' to have him cease to exist. Don't you see...he PLEASED God.... God didn't kill him, God translated Enoch to be with Him.
You are mistakenly assuming that translated and ascended are the same thing. They are not!
Here are the two definitions.
Translated-(metatithemi) Strong's Hebrew & Greek dictionaries
means to transfer, that is literally transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:-carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
Ascended-(anabaino)Strong's Hebrew & Greek dictionaries
means to go up (literally or figuratively)
arise, ascend (up) climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).
Regarding Ezekial 18:4, 20. The context is the Justice of a Righteous God. Each one of us is accountable to God by our own merit. We cannot blame others for our sins. Ezekial gave this new policy because the people had misconstrued the old one. I'm confused as to why you would single out those two verses.
I also haven't heard from you regarding my earlier post.
Carla
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Hi Tim,
You said this:
"I didn't climb up, Granddaddy. I was translated." You can see that it's the end result that is important, not how they get there.
In this young man's case the end result that is the same.. The end result is 'up'... :)
In Enoch's case this means 'heaven'...scripture tells us he was 'translated'...which you just defined as the same 'end result' as 'ascended.' ..'up'....
Heb 11:5.. ".......that he should not see death"
It's important Tim to look at what the bible 'does say' not what it 'doesn't say'.
You also wrote this in one of your earlier replies:
Keep in mind that the Bible says that "God took him", not that he took his soul. How exactly are you differentiating between 'God took him , but not his soul'? Did Enoch's soul stay on earth if it was not taken when he was taken? The bible does not say that his soul died...if you assume it does that you are making an assumption with no evidence to support it.
Regarding Ezekial 18:20-32....
verse 21--But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
verse 22--All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
verse 23--"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord God, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Tim, when the Lord is saying they will live..does He mean forever on earth in a physical state of being...or could it be Spiritually in Heaven? What do you think this means?"rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Physical death is to be dead in the physical sense.
Spiritual death is to be separated from God eternally.
Look forward to hearing from you...
Carla
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Permalink Reply by geoff on
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Tim,
Thank you for your response! I've been following this thread for quite awhile, and have read through several times, and honestly I've been having a hard time following certain points on both sides of the discussion.
We must respectfully agree to disagree, regarding Mark 12. I cannot reconcile "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" with the idea that they're not actually living. His words would seem misleading to me, if He were referring to a future resurrection.
Regarding the story of the rich man and Lazarus, I tend to agree it's a parable. I don't think one can be dogmatic about it, one way or the other, because the text doesn't say. On the other hand, in the (presumable) parable, Jesus said that the spirit is alive and aware, today, pre-resurrection. Granted, that is not the primary meaning of the parable, but I cannot believe that Jesus would incorporate a false doctrine into the core of His instruction. Would it not be giving weight to a lie? Can you, for example, imagine Him teaching about money using a parable of reincarnation?
Thank you for your patience!
Geoff
PS: It is not my intent to try to persuade you, nor to discount your belief, but rather to simply present my understanding for consideration, both by you and by others.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Hi Rod,
I wonder what the record is?
Never the less, I also believe that the Bible was written in a manner which revealed the truth,
but makes you work for it, in order to keep the Bible alive.
Imagine if all the doctrines were "cut and died" ???? I guess it would have been a dead book ages ago.
Hence the wisdom of God in all He creates and does.
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6
"Slaap lekker ou Broer" Sleep well my brother.
Ron.
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Hi Ron and Rod.. and anyone else who cares.. :)
The record for the most comments in a forum discussion is this very topic.. with 203 entries (now 204 including mine) entries..
In second place is the 'Trinity' forum with 180 entries..
In Third place is 'Can we Lose our Salvation' with 139 entries.
I sure love watching this place grow :)
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Hi Carla,
Thank you for the information.
There were some replies that were not on the subject, but it also shows that
there were many AAG members on line, reading and taking note.
To sum up, I believe that the result was the same as the different translations of the Word of God.
Apart from a number of questionable Translations or versions, (less than the fingers on your one hand) all the other Translations agree with the majority here and to take it a step further, it is the same 2 or 3 questionable translations that say: "Jesus was a God", instead of "The" God.
There is no indefinite article in the Greek, therefore Jesus could never be "a" God.
Because the majority is so huge against the minor few, it is this fact by which cults are judged.
But it is not only these facts which were dealt with here, but at least 18 other discrepancies that show up the cults for what they are.
One in particular are the JW's who say that Jesus returned in 1914, that 144,000 will be saved, that Jesus was a God, That souls of men and women die with them. One can go on, but I believe common sense and logic always prevails. Should we count the numbers of those on both sides, then if the cults are right, God is going to be pretty lonely in heaven!
Naturally the few, the very few, will say, "What has been said above is not a yardstick by which to measure salvation." My reply would be, that if billions are wrong, surely God would have corrected the issue in the very beginning, rather than watch while billions upon billions are rejected against the few that will be saved?
Ron.
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Dear Tim,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I believe that you have given it much thought, but my concern is that you are simply trying to defend your viewpoint, rather than seeking the scriptures for the answers as to what God says.
In an earlier post...I believe it was page 3, you said this to me after I asked you where our Spirits go when they die (keep in mind I believe we are Eternal, and that our Spirits do not die.)
I asked you this because you had answered this to me in the previous post:
"So then when the spirit goes out, the body and soul (the self) are dead".
then when I asked you where our spirits go when they die you responded this:
"The Bible clarifies this at Ps 146:4: "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Many translations use the word "spirit" in place of breath. So keeping this verse in harmony with what we've seen in Genesis we see that when a man dies and his spirit or spark of life goes out, he's dead and returns to the dust of the ground and he stops thinking. If you let the air out of a balloon the breath it took to blow it up goes forth, but doesn't go on to do something else. It just returns to the rest of the air. If you turn off an electric lightbulb, the light goes out but doesn't maintain some kind of identity ready to inhabit another bulb."
I'm asking you now...how is a Spirit different, from going out to dying by your reasoning?
Then in your response above...you said this:
This explanation has nothing to do with the risen Christ. Just to clarify, I’ve never said that our Spirits die. All I’ve ever said is that scripturally speaking “spirit” has many meanings. There are about 6 difference uses of the word in the Bible. It can mean a persons demeanor, like when the Pharoah had a dream his spirit was troubled. (Gen 41:8) Numbers 5:14 speaks of a “spirit of jealousy.” But it can also mean breath or the spark of life. Ps 104:29 says that God “…takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.” This is the same word ruach, that was used at Gen 2:7 when breath was breathed into Adam. Eccl 12:7 uses that same word and here the KJV says, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
I think possibly this has been a misunderstanding on my part, and lack of communication on both parts.
If you are saying that our Spirits leave our physical bodies when our physical bodies die here, and they return to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7) then we are in agreement. Scripture teaches that we are Eternal beings.
But you seem to be saying something different than that....that our Spirits just 'go out'... That is not what scripture teaches.
we are Eternal beings:
Daniel 12:2 (NIV)
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
I'm anticipating that you will answer this verse teaches 'soul sleep' but it does not.
Prior to Christ rising and defeating death, when God's children died they went into what is called Abrahams's bosom. This is a whole other forum discussion topic as it is very huge in itself.
However, as a brief outline... Both the righteous and the unrighteous went to a place called Sheol or Hades in the OT when they died. The OT sacrifical system covered the sins of the OT saints, but it did not remove their sins (Heb 10:4). Only the death of the Messiah could remove sins. The sacrificial system was sufficient to keep believers out of hell, it could not get them into Heaven. So all who died went into Sheol or Hades. This place contained two compartments, Hell for the unrighteous (Luke 16:23-25, 28). Abrahams Bosom (verse 22) for the righteous. It was a place of comfort (verse 25) but it was not heaven. Elsewhere, the righteous portion of Sheol, or Hades, is called Paradise (Luke 23:43).
The two sides could see eachother and communicate with eachother, they were separated by an enormous gulf (verse 26)..impossible to cross over.
When Jesus died, He not only paid the price of all future sins, but the sins of the OT saints were removed.
Eph 4:8-10
Eph 4:8 Therefore [fn] it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what [fn] does it mean except that He also [fn] had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
This following scripture tells us when the OT saints rose again...they are presently with the Lord, which is very exciting for us, because we know that when we die here, we will also be present with the Lord.
In Matthew 27:50-53
Mat 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
Mat 27:51 And behold, the [fn] veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the [fn] saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
The bodies that were raised, were the OT saints....
Now when we die, we are present with the Lord immediately upon death.
In verse 51 the temple veil was torn, and the Old Covenant was 'no more'... The old has gone the New has come. Verse 52 talks about those OT saints who were in Abraham's Bosom and have now risen to be with the Lord.
Anyhow.... My brain needs a break.. I will respond after hearing from you.
~Carla
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Hi Tim,
The reason I say that you are only defending your viewpoint without seeking scriptures is because you are continually taking the scriptures out of context to attempt to prove your point of view.
You are defining your beliefs by what you already believe to be true, and then searching for scriptures to support your viewpoint, rather than looking at what the scriptures actually say, and supporting that what they do say by the foundational truths.
Regarding your question here:
If the sacrifices at the temple kept the ancient Jews out of hell, what happened to the countless number of people not born in the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Please rephrase this question so I can get a better 'feel' for what you are asking. It seems that there should be more to this question.
A Quick answer is this...If the person was righteous in God's eyes they were in Abrahams Bosom (The Righteous side) upon death....If the person was unrighteous in God's eyes, then they were in the Unrighteous side of Sheol or Hades. The countless number of people that you ask about were under the Old Covenant...Just as the countless number of people alive today are under the New Covenant. There are many non-believers in the world today...they still have to answer to God whether they believe in Him or not....the same as the OT people were accountable.
~Carla
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Tim,
You believe that you can ONLY believe what you can explain, and if you can't explain it, then the scriptures must not be saying it, so you throw it out or twist it to change it to try to fit your theology. You can't do that!
For example.. The bible tells us there is One God, The bible also teaches that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Trinity--3 persons One God).
If you truly hope as you say you do: these are your words:
What we would hope, however, is that if we've been convinced that something is true, but then discover that our beliefs aren't supported by scripture, then we should be ready and eager to adjust our thinking.
...then you will rethink your position and reread the truths that have been expressed here by many bible believing brothers and sisters in Christ here in this forum. -
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Hi Tim,
This answers your question:
Which scripture says that their are different sides of Sheol or Hades?
Unrighteous who died in OT
Psalm 9:17 The wicked will [fn] return to [fn] Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.
Psa 31:17 Let me not be put to shame, O LORD, for I call upon You; Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in [fn] Sheol.
Psa 49:14 As sheep they are appointed for [fn] Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for [fn] Sheol to consume [fn] So that they have no habitation.
Isa 5:14 Therefore Sheol has enlarged its [fn] throat and opened its mouth without measure; And [fn] Jerusalem's splendor, her multitude, her din of revelry and the jubilant within her, descend into it.
Righteous who died in OT
Gen 37:35 Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him. (Jacob when he found out about his son Joseph)
Job 14:13 "Oh that You would hide me in [fn] Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! (Job through his suffering)
Psa 6:5 For there is no [fn] mention of You in death; In [fn] Sheol who will give You thanks? (David)
Psa 16:10 For You will not abandon my soul to [fn] Sheol; Nor will You [fn] allow Your [fn] Holy One to [fn] undergo decay.(David)
Psa 88:3-7 For my soul has [fn] had enough troubles, And my life has drawn near to [fn] Sheol. (psalmist who was close to death but never gave up prayer, and never lost hope in God)
Isaiah 38:10 I said, "In the middle of my [fn] life I am to enter the gates of Sheol; I am to be deprived of the rest of my years." ( Hezekiah, responded in prayer when he was sick)
These scriptures show how the righteous and the unrighteous were very certain of the reality of Sheol or Hades...and they BOTH knew they were headed there.
Carla -
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Permalink Reply by Stacey Osana Arquines on
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hahahhh I love you Carla thanks for the stats
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