Calvanism. How do I tell if a Christian church is teaching Calvanism? and should I not attend it? What is the biggest problem with Calvanism?

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on January 17, 2008 at 9:43pm

Calvanism and Arminianism are not so far apart as many would like to believe. The two men were friends and both were passionate for Christ. Many people who attend Arminian churches are semi-Calvanists. Many who attend Calvanist churches also hold to some Arminian thoughts.

The problem, in my opinion, is not with what they affirm, but what they deny. I look at the issue as looking at the Bible with one eye closed. The Calvanist has his left eye closed and the Arminian has his right eye closed.

I like to look at the Bible with both eyes open. I read what it says, I learn to understand it and do it. Some things may seem like conflicts, but when I learn more, I find they are not.

Blessings,

Scribe

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Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on February 16, 2008 at 5:09am

I agree with you Scribe. that this issue between calvanism and arminianism doesn't have to separate us as Christians. In my 33 years of being a Christian I have been envolved with churches that held to both views. I am mostly calvanistic now, but not bullheaded about it. I do believe that That people can go overboard with each camp. I believe that the reformed church is to calvanistic and the Nazerines are to Arminianistic. We have to live our lives by conviction if we are to ever going to be useful to the Lord. I will argue my veiw because it is my conviction, but I will not allow my convictions to cause me to be unloving or unkind to any one. We need to be fully devoted followers of Christ, that is the main thing.

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Permalink Reply by Phabs on January 17, 2008 at 9:56pm

Hi Paige
I don't ussually post here, I get the devotions, so I'm not sure what the typical poster here believes.
in anycase, a lot of people have reservations about Calvinism, and it's understandable. I would not advise you to stay away, I would advise you as with everything else to submit it to the test of the holy scripture.

Calvinists basically hold to 5 major points, known by the acrostic TULIP
T- Total depravity, which basically means that man is depraved, dead and does not seek nor can he seek God

U- is for unconditional election, that is to say, God chooses not based on what one has done but by His sovereign purpose and will, a person being saved has everything to do with God and nothing to do with the person.

L- is for Limited Atonement, perhaps the most difficult to accept, it means that the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross is sufficient. As such, everyone for whom He made atonement will be saved. Now as Revelation tells us, not all will be saved, So Christ made sacrifice for those whom the Father has given Him, the elect.

I- Irrestible Grace- another hard one, is that God will extend His grace to His elect and He will save them, His grace is so abounding that it is indeed irresistible

P- Perseverance or Preservation of the Saints, those that God saves, He will preserve, no harm will befall them. Those who are saved now, will be saved. He will accomplish everything He starts

hope that helps! Again submit everything to the test of scripture
In Christ With Love

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Permalink Reply by Stew on January 17, 2008 at 10:00pm

Paige,

In general, it is awkward to say "I'm a Lutheran" or "I'm a Calvinist" since it places John Calvin and Martin Luther in a "higher position" that the baseline Christianity that we seek. Scribe provides a good reflection on keeping both eyes open.

For reference, here are the FIVE points of Calvinism:

Total depravity

The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.

Unconditional election

The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.


Limited atonement

The doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus' substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.

This is getting very specific… Since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect.

Irresistible grace

This doctrine asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

Perseverance of the saints

Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The word saints is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint). The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.

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Permalink Reply by Jasgang on January 18, 2008 at 4:56am

Paige
Bless your hungry heart. Jesus said, "Blessed is he/she that hungereth after righteousnes, for he/she shall be filled." I agree somewhat with Scribe D'Nucov in that we not only must agree with certain things but we also must stand against others. Too many today don't mind agreeing with something only to disagree with it by not standing against the counter to that. Do yourself a favor and just stay away from the "isms." I don't really care what Joseph Smith, James Arminian, John Calvin, or anyone else, for that matter, says. I go to my faithful KJV Bible and listen to what God says.
It is false doctrine that says that we serve a God that just produced lives for the sake of wasting them. God does not waste one thing. God did not create some lives for heaven and some for hell. Hell is reserve for the devil and his servants. To believe in predestination in that way is to believe that God created servants for the devil. God Predestined that every person become a child of God, but was gracious in that it is our choice to or not to. Predestination of that form just puts John 3:16 in the shredder, for there cannot be predestination of that type and also "whosoever will."
2 Corinthians 3, especially 17, gives us powerful insight as to what happened only Calvary's Cross in six hours one Friday. "Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY." It is liberal-minded to think and believe that we can't think for ourselves, make any decisions, choose our eternal destiny by, and in whom we will serve. The spilled blood of Christ on the cross, His death, burial, and, PRAISE GOD!, HIS RESURRECTION, THAT IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.
The "isms" create the confusion. God is not the author of confusion. Those who allow the devil to use them in this matter only further complicate things for those who are searching by the leading of the Holy Spirit of God for His purpose in their lives, will some day give an account for their actions. Meanwhile, go to the real doctrine, the Holy Bible, God's Word, and pray for discernment of His will and way for your life.
Paige it is really not as complicated as many "professing" theologians make it out to be. God has made it really simple. Just seek Him with all your heart and He will be found of you. Don't just know the Word, live and enjoy it! Thank you for your thirst for the truth! It is refreshing.
My own church site is www.living-faithchristianchurch.org. There you can email me and find many helpful aids for your journey through life.

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Permalink Reply by Paige Robertson on January 21, 2008 at 7:28am

Hello,
Wow! Thank you for the info. You sure have studied well. I agree with alot of what you say, but I was just interested in knowing more about what was Calvinism and what exactly they believe in and why. I have to read all these responses from such loving and helpful people over and over a few times to completely understand and compare the differences.
I cant belive how awesome it is to get all this info from you and others!!!i wasnt expecting such response! I think its a blessing that u all take such time to help me.
I want to enjoy my walk with God like I did when I came to the Lord. I think I was more happier then and a few years later in my walk until I started hearing all these other beliefs about what the bible says and what it doent say. I got concerned, yet confused. So I want the truth, and I dont want to be mislead, but I also want to get back to enjoying my personal relationship with Christ. A very personal one. I, being saved now from the pit of hell, should enjoy my freedom in Him. For "those who are free, are free indeed". Am I being clear? I hope. I guess Im thirsting for knowledge.
God Bless you and your ministry!! I will definately go to your site. Where is your church? I think there is one out here in Utah too. I think they had asked me to paint rooms in thier childrens ministry but I had to tell them I was backed up with work for a few months.
Paige

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Permalink Reply by Lynnie on February 11, 2008 at 11:43am

Good one Jasgang I like that..... all the isms are bad news and even to say I am of Paul or you are of Apollos. incorrect We are all one in Christ. He is the only way. Amen I mean Human secularism and Intelectualism and evolutionism blah blah blah ... I like good ole deny yourself and take your cross. God is no respecter of persons and if someone is concerned with that religion or some other way of teaching, lead that person in particular yourself with scripture. If they reject it that is all you can do then just follow after thier unbeliefism.

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Permalink Reply by Craig on October 8, 2009 at 1:47pm

The biggest problem with Calvinism is that they believe God chooses some people for heaven and the rest for hell. In other words, this makes God a respecter of persons. I have friends who believe in Calvinism and they say that witnessing to the "lost" is a waste of time. That if a person is predestined for eternal damnation, then preaching Christ to him/her will not make any difference. This is a very dangerous belief.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on May 4, 2010 at 6:49am

I'm not sure that John Calvin actually taught this. It is true that some will be lost no matter what we do. However, how can we know who those are? This brand of Calvinism is called hyper-Calvinism. I don't believe Calvin would have endorsed this kind of teaching.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on May 4, 2010 at 12:24pm

Roy you are correct. Neither John Calvin or Reformed Theology teach that:

The true Reformers/Calvinist adherents do not believe God chooses some for damnation. This is what Reformed Theology believes about that in the simplest way I can word it.

1 - Everyone is dead in their trespasses and sins. Not one chooses after God. We are all heading to hell if God did not work in our hearts conviction through the Holy Spirit.

2. - God calls and regenerates the heart of those He calls, so they can see for the first time ever. For the first time ever they have true free will. Now that they are consciously aware of God, they are not cohort or force to accept, rather freely through faith choose Christ. A person that has never been free suddenly through the working of the Holy Spirit can see their spiritual bankruptcy and freely through faith that is born in them, through regeneration, choose the savior. It is by grace that regeneration happens, through faith and that faith not of ourselves; it is a gift of God.

3 - God calls through His effectual call, a call that cannot be resisted, not because God bullies us into believing but because who would ever say no to a beautiful life, given the chance. If God was to give all of us Justice and none of us grace, then we would all go to hell.

4 - Is God obligated to give all Grace? Of course not!!! God is not obligated to give Grace and mercy to anyone, those are actions freely given by a righteous judge.

God chooses no one to go to hell. Some He gives grace to and others He gives justice. He has chosen no one to go to hell.

The issue and only issue I have with the Reformed theology up to now is not with their lack of scriptural evidence to back up all that I wrote above. All that I have written here is extremely easy to prove with the bible and the logic is flawless except for one thing that I can't get my finite mind around. If I could I would completely jump on the Reformed theology wagon concerning this issue, but...

I am afraid I have to take us back just a little more before giving you my but hahahaha

We were created in holiness, our parents and representatives (Adam and Eve) screwed up consequently introducing sin among all those that descended from them. God had created a beautiful creation. His creation was given intelligence, the ability to reason and the ability to choose. It chose sin and tainted the human race.

From that point on human's ability to choose was seriously damaged. Now they inherently did not chose after God since we are borne in sin. We still have the ability for moral judgments, but no way to seek after God, since that connection had been broken and we now were dead in our trespasses and sins.

Here is the "but," So if we have no choice but to sin and not seek after God how can we be guilty of not choosing God when we can't before regeneration, unless we are irresistibly called. Apart from God's grace through faith there is no way to be saved then.

We cannot choose what we cannot opt for due to a predisposition to sin.

The answer I get is the following :

Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

So our unrighteousness makes God's grace more beautiful. But unless people have a choice how can they be guilty of not making the right choice?

Because I cannot deny that there are those who are called and cannot resist such a calling, in which group I count myself in, because of my conversion experience, I come to believe that Irresistible grace is true for some, yet others are dealt with in the manner the Arminian theology teaches. Where you have the Holy Spirit (through conviction brought upon in a personal private way or by the way of the Gospel preached) softened the heart to where faith is birth and a choice for God can be made.

I know this is neither popular nor welcome on either camp, but since I never been crazy about belonging to any one camp, I have no problem expressing it. My desire is only to be biblically correct. I continue to seek out answers in both camps.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on May 4, 2010 at 3:47pm

David,

I am brand new to this website. I just noticed the dates on the discussions. I guess this discussion is long over. I was concerned with the response by the brother above and wanted to make sure there was no confusion with John Calvin's teachings and the extreme teachings that surface from time to time. I read through some of your comments and enjoyed them greatly. God bless you. I will get more used to this format. I guess I feel pretty silly responding to a comment made over a year ago. Thanks so much.
~ I am a brother who knows he had to be chosen or would have never made it.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on May 4, 2010 at 4:01pm

No worries friend.

To this blessed place of worship/fellowship. I suspect we are going to have a great time getting to know each other and discussing all things pertaining to God and Godliness.

FYI: Old discussions are resurrected all the time. You know us Christians believe in the resurrection hahahaha

Be blessed and a blessing

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