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Do we Possess three entities namely a "Body" "Soul" and "Spirit"?
I need to hear from members on AAG, what they understand by the terms "Body" "Soul" and "Spirit" Let's look forward to a lively discussion as to your impression and beliefs on the subject.
"Do men and women possess three entities, namely a "Body" that possesses a "Soul" and a "Spirit"?
The Lord Bless all on AAG
Ron.
Views: 988
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Thanks for your testimony, Linda. And there is the reason you are with us still...to bring comfort when one has doubts, to show the light to others when it appears to be dimming for them. May God continue to bless you with answers to your questions and give you the peace that passes all understanding. May your "thorn" be a minor irritation as you speak to others about our Father and Our Lord.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Thank you for sharing this Linda. It is an awesome reminder that our faith is a live. A living faith strengthens our relationship with our Lord. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. You heard His word and your faith has increased.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Hi Guys, Before I put fingers to buttons (Pen to paper) let me apologise to you all. My computer decided to commit suicide.
I first tried the kiss of life, My wife always responds as do some elderly women in the church, but like men the P.C. refused to respond. C.P.R. was my last resort but no joy. But here I am at last, eight days later with apologies to all, namely:
Linda, David, Lt, Jared, Carla, Stacey, Tim, Rita and Rod. If I have missed anyone, please accept my apologies.
I will take a loooong read through all the replies and come back. Missed you guys lots.
Ron
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Dear Ron,
ha ha ha....
Glad to see you back, and your sense of humor is still intact after what must have been a frustrating ordeal!
Lot's 'o' love... Carla
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Hi Guys,
Yes! What a time for a PC breakdown and not join in with something I started. My question to the Lord over the last eight days, was: "Why Lord?"
Reading through all the material that has gone back and forth, I believe the Lord wanted me to come in at the end in order to use the words of the Lord Himself.
I have read and admired much of the writing that has gone before. I believe too as Linda says: "My brain is all fried up" what with all the verses and theological statements being made. Nothing wrong with that, in fact it was very instructive. But somtimes out of the mouths of Babes we learn the truth. (Simplicity)
Therefore I want to refrain from continued usage of chapters and verses, but rather to simply take the Words from the Lord Himself. Who better than to hear it from Jesus. So it is to Him I turn. His input to the Word that we have, must surely be final.
What is the common answer given by JW's and the S.D.A. when discussing life after death.? Their answer is that Luke 16 (Lazurus and the Rich Man) is simply a "fairy tale" or a parable, hence one cannot accept it as an answer to the doctrine of the soul after a person dies.
As I read through the parables told by Jesus in the New Testament, I come to the conclusion that every parable is one of daily occurrences. In fact, could well have been happening at the time Jesus told them.
The Story of the Greedy farmer.
The story of the dinner party.
The story of the lost sheep.
The story of the lost coin.
The story of the lost son.
The story of the crooked manager.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus.
The Story of the persistent widow.
The story of the Tax man and the Pharisee.
These were stories of real people and as I said could be happening at the same time Jesus related these stories.
Now, what is the most important question, that everyone would be prepared to give everything they own, in order to hear the truth. Obviously it would be: "What happens to me, when I die???????????"
Jesus knows how important it would be for us to know what happens. So to those who say it is a parable, a fairy tale, not really happening. Would Jesus after telling all these fact filled stories, tell a lie? I honestly believe that anyone who says that Jesus told a parable that really is'nt true, that it was in fact a Fairy tale and could never happen, or actually take place as Jesus told them..... is condemning themselves and grieving the Holy Spirit.
WHY WOULD JESUS WANT TO MISLEAD MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of people, by telling a cocked up story of Lazarua and the Rich man, that was not true and never ever happened? Why are all the other stories accepted as things that really happen, yet this one story that goes against the grain of "Soul Sleepers" has to be a lie.
It appears to me that there are people who would go to that length when facing the utmost clarity on a subject, rather than acknowledge they are wrong. "I can't be wrong, hence it is a fairy tale, Jesus never gave the true facts"....... Should they stop to think about it....... They are calling Jesus a liar. "A Teller of fictious tales."
I would add to this a warning, but I believe your conscience will tell you of the consequences.
I must acknowedge that Rita also picked this up. Well done lass.
Regarding the misplaced comma:
The translators of the Bible never made a mistake, that is hog wash. They placed the comma correctly. Had they placed it after the word "To day" then Jesus would not have answered the thief but would have asked the thief a question.
Place the comma after "today" rather than "thee" and see that Christ's answer to the thief becomes a question.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise?
You can express the incorrection any way you like it still remains a question.
Remember too that the translators were strict in their translating almost word for word and certainly not changing words around to make it easier to read. They knew that if they started changing words around, it would also change the meaning. So they left the sentence word for word and placed the comma where it really belonged; in order to show the compassion that Christ had for the thief, even though Jesus Himself was in terrible agony.
This is an old JW' and SDA ploy who say that the comma should be after the word To day and not where the translators placed it, namely after the word "Thee"
Once more, Let us rather hear it from the Lord's mouth Himself. It cant be better or more truthful than that. Unless of course Jesus told His listeners a bunch of fairy tales and stories that would totally mislead people to the point where today, He is made out to be a Teller of Fairy tales and lies. I prayerfully trust that those of you who believe this, because there is no other way of getting around this truth, will you please reconsider your thoughts when suggesting that Lazarus and the Rich man was simply a fairy tale and never really happened. Again and I say again. it makes Christ a liar in your study of God's Word. Please pray earnestly over this discussion.
The Lord Bless us all
Ron
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Hi Tim,
As I mentioned: The translators of the time were cautious not to change the wording and knew that the wording was best left as it was. It must have been obvious to them that to place the comma after "today" it became a nonsensical question to the thiefs request.
Note your own paraphrase, you changed two words around to make mean what you want it to be.
You changed the words from "Will you" to "You will" You purposely changed it to accomadate placing your comma after today and to avoid it being a question. Where as the translators refused to have a question put to the thief, because it would be a nonsensical answer from Christ, so rather than change the wording as you have done, they realised that God does not make mistakes in His placement of words, just as He does not give nonsensical answers, therefore they placed the comma exactly where it should be, thereby making sense of Christ's answer to the thief. Talk about every jot and tittle.
Your change of word placement in your paraphrase is weak in comparison to the unchanged word of Christ. The thief knew without any doubt where he would end up that day, and to make sure that we all know, the translators left the wording as is and brought out the magnificent promise to the thief rather than change the wording which God had placed there.
Ron
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Permalink Reply by Sam on
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Linda,
There is no question that the placement of the comma changes the meaning of the scripture, but it does not necessarily turn the statement into a question.
For example, the Latin vulgate reads: "And Jesus said to him, "Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise."
If the comma were moved to the place suggested by Tim it would read, "Amen I say to thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise."
Just an observation.
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No Sam,
You are confusing the issue when you change the wording around.
The Translators were well aware of this and rather placed the comma where it should be in order to make sense instead of a nonsensical question.
I don't believe that the Latin Vulgate is a version to be used as an authority. Just as the New World translation is also a poor reference point.
Of the 25 versions I have, right down to the Bishops Bible 1568 and the KJV-1611 including the Geneva Bible 1587, all have the comma firmly in front of the word "Thee".
But who better than a Greek who is able to read the Koine Greek, to ask him where the comma should be placed?
His reply will be the same: "To make sense a comma has to be placed after the word "Thee", But we the Greek people do not need a comma anywhere because if read incorrectly it will be a question and we would have a problem with that. But when read correctly by a Greek we have an answer and not a question."
And that Sam, is why those who translated from the Koine Greek had no problem with placing the comma where they have.
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Hi Everyone,
my two cents (for what it's worth) on Luke 23:42,43 from the Hebrew, Greek and English Interlinear bible. The precise English translation is this:
verse 42..And he said - to Jesus, Remember me, Lord, when you come in the kingdom of You.
verse 43..And said to him Jesus, Truly I say to you, Today with Me you will be in Paradise.
This is also the translation that fits the Character of our Lord as we look at the entirety of the Scriptures. Jesus is Forgiving and filled with Love and Compassion for us all....It would certainly not be true of His character to pose this as a question and torment the poor man.
I have this great big book sitting on my lap as I type,,,but I'll paste an online version here...let's see if it works: :) It's kinda hard to read my paste here. This link may be helpful: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk23.pdf
23:43 kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND
eipen
eipen
G2036
vi 2Aor Act 3 Sg
said
autw
autO
G846
pp Dat Sg m
to-him
o
ho
G3588
t_ Nom Sg m
THE
ihsous
iEsous
G2424
n_ Nom Sg m
JESUS
amhn
amEn
G281
Hebrew
AMEN
verily
legw
legO
G3004
vi Pres Act 1 Sg
I-AM-sayING
soi
soi
G4671
pp 2 Dat Sg
to-YOU
shmeron
sEmeron
G4594
Adv
toDAY
And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee, To day
shalt thou be with me in
paradise.
43
met
met
G3326
Prep
WITH
emou
emou
G1700
pp 1 Gen Sg
ME
esh
esE
G2071
vi Fut vxx 2 Sg
YOU-SHALL-BE
en
en
G1722
Prep
IN
tw
tO
G3588
t_ Dat Sg m
THE
paradeisw
paradeisO
G3857
n_ Dat Sg m
PARK
paradise
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Hi Tim,
As you well know, I was not able to particpate in all the discussions on this subject.
But I have gone over them all and find that the discussion you are raising with me have all been adequately answered by most of the group on AAG.
I find it senseless to go over them again. That Is why I chose to speak of Lazarus and the Rich man, plus the thief on the cross.
They are two simple events that the Bible speaks of and just as the thief on the cross was an event and not a fairy tale, as all the parables were day to day events, possibly happening even while Christ was relating them.
I also pointed out the importance of knowing what happens to a man or a woman who dies. Surely Christ would not tell fairy tales or lies about this when He spoke of Lazarus and Abraham?
Finally I also own some 25 translations of the Bible, Ancient and modern. At college I studied Greek for 3 years. My reply on the comma, will be the same to you as it was to Sam.
"Ask a Greek who undestands the Koine Greek, to read Luke's account of Christ's answer to the thief from the Koine Greek. He will tell you that a Greek would not need a comma anywhere in the sentence if read correctly. He would fully understand that when read as a single verse it could only mean one thing, failing which the thief's request would have received a nonsensical question in return, instead of the answer he had hoped for from Christ." Ask him could it be changed to make sense, again he would reply that the verse is complete on it's own and makes perfect sense. Why change it?
This logic is similar to:
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Those who reject the Virgin birth mantain that the Word Virgin could be translated to
be a "Young woman"
But similar to Luke 23:43. the whole verse must be read and stay in context.
In other words the verse says: "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give a sign"
Now what kind of sign would it be for a young woman to conceive and give bith? Young women give birth every day....
The verse could quite easily be read: "A young woman shall conceive and give birth."
But I believe that God in His wisdom knew of the arguments that would be raised against a Virgin giving birth, so He placed His stamp of authority on it by writing
"The Lord Himself shall give a sign" After that statement there can be no doubt.
So as in Isaiah and in Luke, God left an indelible stamp so that the true meaning could not be rubbed out. So too the Lucan dialogue concerning the thief has this quaint way of leaving it a question if not read correctly, or a comma not placed in the right place in order to eliminate the question and make it a statement.
I close on this subject, as I believe all that has to be said on both sides has been said and we have to carefully consider what we have said in order not to discredit the very word of God, and the Son of God Himself.
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