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The Modern Church: How do we compare to Biblical truth?
Hi everyone,
I wanted to start this discussion out of love and concern. I am greatly troubled by the things I see happening all around me. I am particularly troubled by the efficacy of the church in a sea of growing turmoil. I believe that we are living in the last days, but I admit that I could be wrong. It's just that the signs of fulfilled prophecy are all around us. I believe that the church has fallen asleep and is not doing a very effective job reaching the lost for Christ. Do you agree? Why or why not?
Let me give an example. We are all kings and priests (Rev. 5:10). It seems to me, however, that when the Christian gives authority over to a single individual, a pastor, the church often falls into a deep sleep. Isn't the Biblical role of bishop or overseer simply that, one who watches over the flock? I don't believe that overseers are meant to be lords over the church, as they sometimes are, nor should they be scapegoats for dealing with difficult matters that love and a little accountability could otherwise resolve. In today's church, however, it seems that the overseer has become a full-fledged shepherd. I know that Jesus told Peter to tend His sheep, but isn't that still different from what many pastors are expected to be and do today? I fear that the result is that we've become more like sheep; many of us are content, it seems, to simply graze.
What about the church as a whole? Why is it that we don't come together to share with each other as the early church did in Acts 4:32-35? How close are we to what Jesus preached during his three year ministry? When we see a brother sinning, do we actually follow the teachings of Christ in Matthew 18:15-17? Do we speak to our brother or sister out of love or do we expect the pastor or a deacon or someone else to handle it? I don't mean condemning folks or speaking out of turn to people we barely know. What happened to the love that filled the early church? I didn't grow up in church, but I was loved into the faith by a group of earnest believers. I don't think that is as common as it should be.
And I seem to recall God telling men not to build steps before an altar (Exodus 20:26), yet this appears to be something common in many churches around the world. Even if there isn't a literal altar, evangelical churches hold an altar call, during which the repentant sinner is urged to go to the front of the church where, almost invariably, there are steps leading up to the pulpit. Is this not a violation of God's decree? Even if it isn't a literal altar, it seems that there is a suggestion of one--perhaps only spiritually.
Your brother in Christ,
Edward
I wanted to start this discussion out of love and concern. I am greatly troubled by the things I see happening all around me. I am particularly troubled by the efficacy of the church in a sea of growing turmoil. I believe that we are living in the last days, but I admit that I could be wrong. It's just that the signs of fulfilled prophecy are all around us. I believe that the church has fallen asleep and is not doing a very effective job reaching the lost for Christ. Do you agree? Why or why not?
Let me give an example. We are all kings and priests (Rev. 5:10). It seems to me, however, that when the Christian gives authority over to a single individual, a pastor, the church often falls into a deep sleep. Isn't the Biblical role of bishop or overseer simply that, one who watches over the flock? I don't believe that overseers are meant to be lords over the church, as they sometimes are, nor should they be scapegoats for dealing with difficult matters that love and a little accountability could otherwise resolve. In today's church, however, it seems that the overseer has become a full-fledged shepherd. I know that Jesus told Peter to tend His sheep, but isn't that still different from what many pastors are expected to be and do today? I fear that the result is that we've become more like sheep; many of us are content, it seems, to simply graze.
What about the church as a whole? Why is it that we don't come together to share with each other as the early church did in Acts 4:32-35? How close are we to what Jesus preached during his three year ministry? When we see a brother sinning, do we actually follow the teachings of Christ in Matthew 18:15-17? Do we speak to our brother or sister out of love or do we expect the pastor or a deacon or someone else to handle it? I don't mean condemning folks or speaking out of turn to people we barely know. What happened to the love that filled the early church? I didn't grow up in church, but I was loved into the faith by a group of earnest believers. I don't think that is as common as it should be.
And I seem to recall God telling men not to build steps before an altar (Exodus 20:26), yet this appears to be something common in many churches around the world. Even if there isn't a literal altar, evangelical churches hold an altar call, during which the repentant sinner is urged to go to the front of the church where, almost invariably, there are steps leading up to the pulpit. Is this not a violation of God's decree? Even if it isn't a literal altar, it seems that there is a suggestion of one--perhaps only spiritually.
Your brother in Christ,
Edward
Views: 399
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on
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Believe you me Edward I can tell you some stories of what happens when a church goes bad. The thing is that if we have a bad church expearence like some of the thing that you shared we tend to believe all churches are the same. There are wonderful churches throughout the world that are doing wonderful thing and are healthy. A church is an extention of our own family, a group of families doing life together. Every church has problems and disfuntions and we are most likely a little disfuntional ourselves. When you are dealing with church it gets messy just like families. All I can do is consentrate on being a positive influence and doing our best with the help of the Holy Spirit, endevering to keep the unity in the bonds of peace.
This song is called MY JESUS and is a call for those churches who have gone astray
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Permalink Reply by Edward on
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Thanks, Bob. That's an awesome video. I really appreciate your comments, too. I'm just interested in hearing what others think. I agree that it is up to each of us to be the church we wish to see in the world.
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This is a good group to help us all to really come to grips with what the church is supose to be all about anyway,
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Thanks for responding, Bob. I think you make a good point. I find that quite often there is only so much one can do, and so much seems to be about keeping the peace. I just wonder if we aren't often too focused on ourselves as a body of believers to be focused on being the servants of Christ in a fallen world. I appreciate your involvement here.
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Permalink Reply by Erik Benjamin O Corcorain on
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Edward Hey there Erik Corcoran here, i found your article to be very true. I attend a very large church called Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. There are thousands and thousand of people every sunday that fill up those pews every week. The real question though is, "what are those people who are getting fed with the word doing during the week"? Are they applying what they have learned on Sunday in their everyday lives... I think the answer is pretty straight forward, No for the most part people sin and sin and sin and in a sense come to confession on a Sunday. Then they repeat the cycle year after year after year until they eventually wither away. I think it is agregious, I think Jesus would be and is appaled that so many people could be so duped by Satan into this slothful type lifestyle. I personally am attending a secular college where I am bombarded every day with lies from secular teachers, of course I have to listen in order to get good grades, but one can observe how "easy" it is to get desinsitized. So in order to grow, in order to be a light, to be different we have to be communing with the Lord in secret, we have to then take what we've learned and apply it practically in our lives. Whether that means you dont put yourself in a vulnerable position with the ladies, or you dont hang around when the fellas talk about perverse things. Its a moment by moment decision, nobody falls into sin, they walk with one foot in front of the other... down down down... I am very glad you brought this subject to light and would love to discuss ways to correct this fallen system with you further... God bless you!
Erik Benjamin Corcoran
"Irishman for Christ"
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Hello brother "Irishman for Christ",
My life was greatly impacted by your church. It was hearing a testimony of someone who knew Pastor Chuck that opened my blind eyes to the reality of Christ.
Also, I knew a man who was a regular member there. He had the audacious humility to to personally shine people's shoes when they came to his company. The strange thing is that he was the son of the president of that company. His servant attitude greatly revealed how seriously he took the words of Christ. I asked him why he did that, and he said simply "People in the business world would not accept me washing their feet, so I shine their shoes. In this way I reveal the nature of Christ. Some people ask me, and it gives me a chance to tell them of the great love of God, revealed in Jesus. In this way, I live out the commands to serve and be a servant to all."
I learned from this man that he came to such strong conviction by attending your church every week and learned to be a follower of Christ.
What the pastor is called to do is teach the word and serve the flock. The flock is called to follow Christ, not a pastor. The pastor is only a servant. We are each accountable to Jesus personally.
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Hello Scribe,
I find your words, as usual, refreshing. Thank you for joining the discussion. I'm glad that you've met some wonderful Christians who are attempting to live out the words of Christ in their lives. Unfortunately, I think this is the exception and not the rule. Of course, this shouldn't be a surprise because we know from Christ's own words that the way is narrow. It is better to be sheep than goats, but I don't think many modern Christians truly understand the difference between the two. "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord...," but "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." You have written a good job description for a pastor, and I think you are correct about whom it is we are called to follow. I'm glad this discussion is beginning to dig a little deeper into the subject. I hope others will follow your example.
I think that churches, like individuals, exist on a spectrum. Some churches are very close to scriptural truth while others are very far from it. Sadly, I think there must, by nature, be more that are farther from it. Maybe this is because we are simply fallen in a fallen world and God's truth exists all the way over on the extreme end of that spectrum. Then again, maybe that is an incorrect view. Perhaps, like the mother hen, Jesus gathers us beneath His wings and serves as the umbrella that covers us all--I'm just not sure then what to do with His words concerning the sheep and goats. Remember, the goats will declare that they lived to serve Him, but He will cast them out with the proclamation that He never even knew them. Who, then, are these goats that are so shocked and amazed when Jesus indicts them for not feeding, clothing, or caring for Him? We would all do well to remember that the next time we see a hungry man or a filthy stranger. It is easy to care for the needs of the widow and orphan, but Jesus wants us to visit Him in prison and to invite Him in as the stranger. He did not shun the filthy, weak, convicted, or poor, yet I see Christians doing this very thing every single day. On some of these matters, I convict myself as much as anyone. I'm simply asking, what happened? When did we stop listening to the fundamental teachings of Christ? When did we stop reaching out with love to the lost, forsaken, and dying of the world? How many of us are willing to visit men in prison or dying AIDS victims? How many of us are extending a hand to the lame or leprous? Jesus would have and did. He would today. I don't see this happening in the town where I live, but maybe it's because I don't attend every church here. I don't know.
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Bro, it could also be that those who are doing the good works you speak of are not advertising it. I have been to a lot of churches, many denominations, many styles. I have seen the good, bad and ugly of each. I have rarely been to any churches that did not have some outreach of some kind to somebody somewhere.
I once went to a little country church filled with stale and starchy folks who loved God in a very nonexpressive way. But, they paid for a man to travel to a foreign country and set up an orphanage that ministered to hundreds. That little orphanage impacted many people in that country and that man became an instrument of change.
That little church was dry and boring, but when I needed help, those people gave it to me without hesitation.
Today I go to a great church that has enthusiasm, joy and is involved in supporting dozens of different types of outreaches, either directly or indirectly. They support orphanages on 3 continents, they have missions to people in several countries, speaking a variety of languages. They have ministries to homeless and unfortunate people in my own town.
But, darn it, they bug me sometimes. There are things I think should be done, which aren't done the way I would like. So, I pray for those things, and when I can I do them myself. And, I encourage others to adopt what I see as important.
I guess what I am trying to say is that no church will fulfill all of the great commission. And, yes you are right, there are many who are not living the truth. But, the answer to that is not to condemn.
The answer is to live the love of Christ. See the weaker brother as someone needing your prayer. See the person who is hearing, but never perceiving, as someone to reach out to.
I have a friend who has been the most lack-luster, unexcited christian for many years. He isn't doing much to grow in his faith and he isn't living out many things to love others. I keep hoping he will get some fire in his heart and find something to get passionate about. He barely has any faith, and he's depressed all the time. So, I try to remember him in my prayers.
Because I was just like him a few years ago.
- Scribe D
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Scribe, you have said some really insightful things here. I'm so glad you responded. I like your attitude about seeing others the way you mention and praying for them. I like that a lot. I don't mean to sound judgmental; I just wish I could wake people up sometimes and set their hearts on fire.
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I think you make some good points, too. I've seen exactly what you're talking about in several churches I've attended. And I know what it's like to walk that lonely walk in the secular world. But, and this is a mighty big butt, I didn't intend this to become a church bashing post. I see that so far the postings seem to be polarizing to either defending the church or attacking it. I'm actually looking for more of a discussion on how close we are to Biblical truth and the teachings of Christ, which nobody has spent much time addressing. Of course, I've only had a few responses, so maybe I should reserve such statements and give this topic more time to ferment. Thank you, Erik, for joining the discussion. I think it's important that we first look to ourselves if there is a problem in the body of Christ. I'm only holding up a mirror to what we are and asking everyone to take a long, deep look.
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Erik, I'm not sure why my earlier response to your post seems to be appearing so far down the list. I just want to be sure to say "thank you" for coming here and joining in the discussion. It can be very frustrating in college where it seems that so many stand against Biblical truth. I agree, too, that many today seemed to have been duped into a lifestyle that does not glorify God as much as it glorifies ourselves. It's a very sad fact that many today don't understand or don't want to understand what scripture actually teaches. There seems to be this idea out there that if my parents and their parents and their parents before them did it, then it must be God's will for our lives. There also seems to be a dysfunctional view of church ownership in some communities, which is to say that somehow some individuals are sadly mistaken in their understanding of what the building represents, who "owns" it, and what exactly that should mean. On the one hand, it is simply a building that exists for the worship of God and the use of all believers for the common purpose of serving God's will, but it doesn't belong, really, to any of us. I've seen a great number of individuals, in small towns especially, that take on the role of church owner--"this is our church" because our families built it, therefore we decide who belongs here, how the building is used, and so on. This is why I really like the song "If We Are the Body;" I think that it directly addresses much of what I've seen occuring. Jesus really did pay much too high a price for us to pick and choose who should come.
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I was studying Acts 2: 42-47 and I noticed some things that were descriptive of what a church is suppose to look like. This church grew really fast (3000 in one day were added to 120).
In the description of the infancy of the church the thing that stuck out to me the most were; They had a teachable spirit, they were like a big family who did life together.
They had a fear and awe of the Lord in the church because of the presence of the Lord was very near to them. Miracles and signs reinforced this attitude of awe and fear of the lord. They shared their possessions and resources to make sure every one had their needs met like any family would do. They met in the temple all the time, and again reference is made that they had meals together in their homes. I like this next description;
They had glad and humble hearts, they were praising God and as the unsaved saw what was happening to their neighbors, relatives and friends, people were coming to the Lord every day. They had no big crusades; they just live a life close to God and to one another and the Holy Spirit drew them in.
I am not advocating communal living, but it is important that we learn to do life together as Christians, not only going to church, but eating together, playing together, sharing together.
This Jerusalem church would soon face tremendous persecution and would need to learn new ways to maintain their new found life in Christ, but the basic elements of worship, fellowship, having a humble heart, studying the word, living with an awe and fear of the Lord, and taking care of one another.
How does the Moderm Church measure up to the early Church?
It all started with the few who are gathered together seeking the Lord in one place. You will notice that each one was touched in the upper room.
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