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Judgement of sin
Everyone is so quiet on AAG...... So let's see if we can get a discussion going.
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Isaiah 43:25.
If this promise stands. then as Christians why must we stand before God in Judgement, particularly when God says He won't remember them?
Ron
Views: 72
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gary on
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I did read it. (And elected to not go into a free will or other discussion.)
FWIW, the Bible itself (specifically John 1) refers to Jesus as the Word, and not to any text as the Logos.
If you want to rephrase your question, you can, but we'll likely simply get to that I don't believe the Bible to be [____] in the ways that you do.
That said, I do read it prayerfully and do so daily.
To me a "high view of Scripture" means that I daily receive it into my prayer life. I don't do this with any other book.
It's founded more in practical, daily worship than in abstract, disembodied philosophy. -
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Gary would you please explain what you mean by the term "The High View of Scripture" ?
Also I notice that you place a lot of emphasis on the "Historic creeds" and the "Te Deum hymn"
Would you be speaking from a Roman Catholic point of view?
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The phrase "high view of Scripture" customarily means something akin to sola scriptura--reformed theology with primary, or even near exclusive, emphasis on revelation through Holy Scripture in contrast to revelation through, most historically notably in contrast, Holy Tradition/the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
I wouldn't be speaking from a Roman Catholic point of view. I'm not Roman Catholic.
That said, right now, I probably read about 20% Eastern Orthodox authors, 20% Roman Catholic authors, 15% Anglican authors, 15% Evangelical authors, 15% liberal mainline Protestant authors, and 15% what perhaps could be called emergent church authors. I've become interested in what different voices have to say and am not bothered by those with different interpretations.
As far as church attendance, in the last year, I've attended services of Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, Anglican, Methodist, Non-denominational Charismatic-leaning Evangelical, Baptist, Assembly of God, Messianic Jewish, and Latter Day Saints. The LDS are Restorationist and I don't believe the Messianic Jewish congregation believes in the doctrine of the Trinity either. But that said, I'm not sure the Non-denominational pastor either has an orthodox Christology for instance.
There are elements I like about each of the traditions (though sometimes I struggle finding that in the modernistic/literalistic/often uptight LDS).
The Te Deum Hymn is used by the Roman, Lutheran, and Anglican churches. Many Protestants will be familiar with the somewhat similar Holy, Holy Holy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJBxK0IQ6XE - Oops the Mormons do a bit of spin on the lyrics there but perhaps you know the tune.)
The historic Creeds are generally used by the Eastern, Roman, Lutheran, and Anglican churches. Many of the original reformers and their confessions of faith supported the historic Creeds. In the recent century or two though, many Protestant-in-origins churches seem to have drifted away from the Creeds as well as much general awareness of Christianity over the centuries and across geographies.
I'm not sure I have a single point of view from which to speak, but the neither does the Church it seems.
As far as emphasis on the Creeds and a specific very ancient hymn (4th century in origins?), I was just contemplating the role of how we worship and how the words and lyrics of our worship cause us to conceive judgment (as well as a number of other topics).
Perhaps more contemporary would be Carrie Underwood singing How Great Thou Art.
When Christ shall come,
With shouts of acclamation,
And take me home,
What joy shall fill my heart!
Then I shall bow
In humble adoration
And there proclaim,
"My God, how great Thou art!"
A lyrical anticipation of the judgment...
I think most of the Church would join along in singing with her.
Take a moment and listen to Carrie and soak it in if you can.
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OK Gary,
Thank you for being open with me, I appreciate that.
I see you as one searching to get as close to God, as this present walk will allow.
Yes because the creeds do not carry the stamp of being God Inspired, but merely the work of men, they have to some extent fallen away. I find that most of these creeds are very enlightening and in many cases bring a better understanding to many passages of Scripture.
Is it not sad, that those who deny Christianity use statements that immediately show that they are simply repeating what they have heard from other atheists and have never bothered to search the Scriptures themselves.
I also honestly believe, as I move around the churches, that we are in the Laodecian age and what
with the way the world is presently going, particularly Israel, we are now on the brink of the end times. Israel I believe is the Barometer to watch.
Listened to Carrie.... Beautiful voice with good emphasis. There are many beautiful Christian songs on YouTube which I have also downloaded... Of late I have been downloading old favourites from the 30's,40's and 50's (Not hymns) simply "Oldies" The Andrew Sisters, Al Jolson, Arthur Tracy etc.
Never the less I am heading way past my bed time - Thank you for your thoughts.
Ron
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Thanks.
Though perhaps not as good as Carrie Underwood, here's a devout seminarian's rendition of a relatively recent arrangement of the Te Deum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOeHg67deM
Also, btw, many Christians (if not most Christians globally percentage-wise--at least based upon denominationally what they are "supposed to believe") find the Creeds as authoritative as Scripture. Historically it's the same church fathers who generally picked both Creed and Canon and the timeline is more so of the selection of the Creeds informing the Canon than the other way around. The idea that the Canons are non-authoritive is realtively "new" theology and didn't really appear until the 16th century.
Also, don't, too quickly, insult in general the atheist's understanding of Scripture. In addition to having spent time in a number of corners of the Church, I also well know many non-theists. Most of them have a broader and deeper understanding of what the texts of the Bible say beyond the average professing "believer" who more so knows that he believes than what he believes, nevermind why he believes.
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Fortunately, Martin Luther with the likes of Zwingli and Calvin came along, failing which we
would also be focussed on Mariology.
I see that the R.C's are pushing forward the doctrine of Mary being Co-Redemptrix with Christ. Given time I guess they will remove the term "Co" and place her as Saviour of the world.
I agree that there are many who are able to quote scripture and even have a good understanding of scripture, but the "hardness" of their hearts refuse the Holy Spirit entry.
I think that within them is a sin of pride, "We know it all, but are not simpletons who believe and trust as you do" Their pride makes it extremely difficult to for them to allow the Holy Spirit entrance. All of which proves the accuracy of the scriptures, namely the need for and their rejection of the Holy spirit.
Regarding professing Christians.... In every Christian garden you will find "wheat and tares".
Imagine the terrible shock experienced at the Rapture, when finding themselves excluded..
Listened to, the Te Deum and not wanting to take away from his sincerity, I could not help but think the man needs a haircut or at least a comb. I was also reminded of the Hippie generation who also wanted to believe but many of them fell away. They were sincere but their choice of life style soon closed them down as they grew up.. I wondered while watching him and trying not to judge, if he did not fall into the same type generation?
Sadly there are many who attend church regularly and claim the title of Christian. Made a point of visiting one only yesterday morning, who pointed to himself as being a good man worthy of salvation. When I pointed out that not once did he mention Christ for the reason of his salvation, he became more confused and could not grasp my reasoning. I will be going back. He also confuses Christianity with Spiritism. "Ron, she spoke to my mother."
Have a good day
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Yep, Truth may not only be stranger than fiction, but is certainly more satisfying.
It is the system not the people I reject. I once found it difficult to repress my anger when a Lebanese Catholic woman proudly displayed a certificate she purchased in Rome. Should the last rites not be recited over her, the certificate Guaranteed her a place in heaven. "Ron look it even has the Pope's signature authorising my place in heaven." I would guess that when she showed the certificate to the local priest, "He just smiled Dad." What with the Pope's signature prominently displayed and openly sold, it would appear that the Pope did not object either.
I was once told by a Priest that it was a sin of assumption to consider yourself "Saved", this despite quoting him verses on assurance. I wonder if he had ever read the New Testament? Am I anti the Roman Catholic system....? You Bet!
Are there any Roman Catholics who are born again Christians? You Bet! But are disobedient to God's call. Eph 5:6-13; 2Cor 6:17
Strangely enough despite my dislike of the "system" I used to preach/teach Charismatic Catholics, in Johannesburg, where the Holy Spirit was allowed to take centre stage, where their formal and prepared prayers changed to prayers from the heart with real joy being discovered and openly expressed. Naturally, all without permission from the "father". The "gift of tongues" played no part in this, it was simply taking them deeper into the Holy Spirit's role and position in the Trinity.
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Good stories.
I think I could share that part of the anti-Catholic bias.
But I fear... if I did that kind of analysis to all the types of churches I've visited over the years, I'd develop anti-Orthodox bias, anti-Protestant bias, anti-Charismatic bias, etc. and not step foot in another Christian church again!
True stories from both pulpit and pew.
Btw, a few times you've made disparaging comments about prayers with fixed language. For me personally at least, they're not "vain repetitions" but I can understand how for many, if not most, they would be.
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I guess the answer then is to pick the best of the bunch where one feels fairly comfortable. Far better.... and to quote "A rolling stone, gathers....................."
I am sure that somewhere in a previous discussion, I said that I believe we (local churches) are in the Laodecian age. But then here at a coastal town (A fine place to retire) our membership are mainly retired folk with something like 2,500 years between us listening to sermons every week.
I for one came to the Lord 52 years ago at age 26. So I guess the Lord has seen fit to place us one side like worn out pencils.
I am a gentile, with my wife a Jewish Believer. When a Jew discovers Yeshua Ha'Mashich it is something to
wonder at. Most of her family have been in Israel on Kibbutz Yizrael for 46 years having left Johannesburg S. Africa on "Aliyah" Gene and I have been there several times. There is definitely something different about walking in Jerusalem, Nazareth, Bethlehem etc. Should you ever get the opportunity to go yourself, then rather wait for the "Feast of Tabernacles" You will be blessed right out of your socks. Imagine marching through the streets of Jerusalem with thousands of Christians singing Choruses. The first time we went, Christians marching and singing were a bit of a spectacle, but now even Orthodox Jews join in, Country flags and all..
Have a Blessed day,
Ron
Today, reciting the Lord's prayer invokes little, we may as well be saying: "Mary had a little lamb"
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Permalink Reply by Serenity on
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When we repent, turn to God, do our very best to not repeat the sin for which we repented, God blots out sin and we are covered under the new Covenant by Jesus' blood. If we do not repent -- that's another story.
However, I believe there is a judgment where Jesus will send the sheep one way and the goats the other -- those who are God's flock will be given rewards for their faithfulness.
2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
NIV
Matt 25:32-46
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
NIV
BUT -- I wonder how much this would have to do with the new covenant. In the Old Testament, people were still under the law and the priests had to continuously perform rites and sacrifices to God.
Today, we are under the New Covenant God made with man whereby Jesus, the one and only Son of God was sent from heaven to earth by the Father to be a blood sacrifice for the sins of man for all time. In the New Covenant, God would write his laws on man's hearts. There would therefore be a new level of obedience, a new knowledge of the Lord, and a new forgiveness for sin. And we have the Holy Spirit, which Old Testament folks did not have. In the New Covenant, everything rests in the sacrifical work of Jesus Christ.
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