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Judgement of sin
Everyone is so quiet on AAG...... So let's see if we can get a discussion going.
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Isaiah 43:25.
If this promise stands. then as Christians why must we stand before God in Judgement, particularly when God says He won't remember them?
Ron
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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If i understand the judgement seat where Christians are judged, it will be to receive rewards that God will give us. We will then cast them to the feet of Christ as He and only He is worthy of rewards.
The Great White Throne Judgement is for those who will not be going to heaven to live with Christ. They will have no defense for the sins that the have committed during their lives, because Jesus Christ is the only defense and they rejected Him.
We will all be judged by Christ, but not at the same time.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Hi Rita,
Thank you for your reply, Can you please give me more on:
1. "Where Christians are Judged" Judged on what?
2 "It will be to receive rewards that God will give us." What will these rewards be?
3 "We will then cast them to the feet of Christ" Chapter and verse please..
Blessings and thank you Rita.
Your brother in Christ
Ron
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Ron,
Did I bite off more than I can chew? Maybe so.
In the New Testament, from Matt 10:40 on into Revelation, the Bible speaks of the rewards one will receive for certain attributes that one develops throughout his Christian walk.
In Revelation 3:11, Christ tell the Church at Philadelphia to hold fast to what they have so that no one may seize their crowns.
Revelation 11:18 speaks of the 24 elders sitting befor God will cast their crowns at His (their) feet in reverence to Him. I am assuming (and we all know what that means) that because these 24 cast their crowns before God, all with crowns will follow suit.
I reckon the judging of the Christian is a continual thing throughout his life. It would have to be because when the rapture comes, those included will have been judged as worthy or they won't go in the rapture.
In Christ's conversation with the 7 churches, Christ explains their good points and bad points and what their reward will be if they mend their ways.
In the short of it, all Christians are judged while they live. The worthwhile rewards will come when we reach heaven. As i think of it, the rewards that we will receive will all be worthwhile in heaven. However, from my way of thinking, the crowns are an accessory that we might not need when we get there.
I think the 24 elders realized that the crown should go to Jesus, the One Who made it possible for them to be seated before Him.
Gotta open my office so need to close. If you have more questions or if I didn't answer satisfactorily, let me know.
Blessings to you and yours,
Your Sister,
Rita
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Hi Rita,
No you have done admirably well.
I raised this question, mainly because Preachers, when trying to motivate Christians to walk closer to the Lord, often threaten them with Judgement/Hell fire and their present sins.
Born again Christians do not fall into that category. They have escaped the Judgment Throne of God and will be judged on their Christian walk here on earth. Not for Salvation but reward.
1st Cor 3 explains this quite clearly particularly verses 10 to 15.
Seems as though everyone here on AAG, are on vacation. (Perhaps Raptured????? "help!")
OK "Sus" don't over work, keep looking up with one eye on the Rapture Barometer, which is Israel and the Middle East.
Blessings
Ron.
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Permalink Reply by Gary on
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Ron, the author of this part of the book of Isaiah didn't likely have the eschatological view that I believe your alluding to in "stand before God in Judgement." There's little textual evidence that the author of Isaiah had a view of the end times that I'm guessing you think he might.
Also, we tend to interpret "judge" in a very negative way. Perhaps part of it is due to Medieval Western Christian theological developments as well as our experiences (and perhaps more important expectations) in a modern legal system.
In ancient days, such as the time the book of Isaiah would have been written, society was much rougher compared to our modern standards. Then to "judge" was more strongly associated then with being a protector of the weak than one who gives a negative, legalistic condemning sentence for a crime committed.
For instance, in the historically venerable Te Deum hymn, we pray that Christ come and be our judge in a postive way. This is in contrast to the Satan (literally meaning the Accuser).
In the historic creeds, Christ judges the living and the dead. And he is also, in many historic prayers, our "advocate and mediator." It's looked upon as a good thing. I personally read a modern translation of the Te Deum hymn as part of my daily devotions, and there is a key couple lines that go:
You sit at the right hand of God, in the glory of the Father.
We believe that you will come again to be our judge.
Come then, Lord, we pray, and help your servants,
whom you have redeemed with your precious blood.
We ask that Christ judge us because we (delightedly!!!) know what the judgements of the Lord to be like! :-)
Though eschatologically different, there is a theological commonality here with Isaiah. Look through some of the Isaiah references to "judgement."
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Isa 1:17.
The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. Isa 3:13.
For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isa 33:22
It was more in this context that the author(s) of the book of Isaiah saw the judgement of the Lord. And it is more in this context, that many Christians do as well.
This is how judgement relates to the view of the blotting out of transgression.
Sadly, I don't think many believe in the nature of the mercy of the Lord.
Lord have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Is it a plea? Or a joyous declaration of his character.
Some people pray the same prayers, but pray them quite differently.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Hi Gary,
Thank you for your input.....
Yes, you are absolutely right. When Christians, (Born Again Christians) read the passages you refer to in Isaiah, they accept them without fear of mortal judgment, but rather that God will Judge them in the light of what they have become.
We as true Christians think of God's present Judgment when we fall out of line, more as a form of correction rather than Judgment. Yet should we continiue in a particular sin, then God's correction (For we have already been judgedbecome harsher until we realise that we are walking a different road to the one God would have us walk.
Whether the terms:
"Lord have mercy
Christ have mercy.
Lord have mercy."
is a plea or a joyous declaration of God's character, will depend on a persons position in Christ.
If I am aware of the continual sins in my life, then the mercy I ask for is a plea to God to be lenient and have mercy on me who despite my salvation in Christ I am still a miserable sinner. In this state I as a Christian will be very aware of my sins, but fully realise that God is a God of Mercy and will forgive me.
A non Christian may give very little thought to the words and simply be expressing vain repetitions.
Similar to your last quotation. For a true Christian, Paul's words are a shout of victory, but to an unbeiever they may be
meaningless or instil fear. Once again... It all depends on whether one has personally accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour (Born Again) or not.
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Personally, I don't read the text as if "it all depends" on any single one thing. I could prooftext a couple dozen "it all depends upon this" notions.
I don't think it's so easy to put into a nice, little, under-my-control, neat box.
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I believe you could.
In fact one can read anything into practically most statements made.
But keep in mind, most Biblical statements are reinforced with other verses.
Should one wish to make a verse mean something different to what it clearly states, then yes
go ahead, but soon another verse will turn up in total contradiction.
The Bible when read in conjunction with verses dealing with the same subject, there can (unless certain verses are ignored or twisted) only be a single conclusion.
This might well raise the question, why then are there so many different denominations?
Many reasons can be given for this. Six come to mind.... 1. Certain verses are ignored. 2. Too much emphasis or importance is placed on a single verse to the detriment of others. 3. Church dogma which ignores standard foundations laid for correct interpretation. 4. Historical churches. Churches which lean heavily on their historical past, indifferent to anything the Bible may say in opposition to their beliefs.
5. Sectarian... Rewrite the Bible to suit their theology. 6. Cultural.. This is a particular problem in Africa, where African traditions and Biblical standards are blended together eventually forming a form of Christian Witchcraft.
What is the main ingredient required to obtain a good balance in one's theology?
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
Therefore we have the Words of Christ, with the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, should we choose to manipulate them, rather than take them at face value, it will be to our detriment.
Ron.
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Here's an example of one I ignore:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+21%3A18-21&...
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Hi Gary,
I open up with a question...... Do you believe in Hell?
This law, severe as it may seem, must have acted as a powerful preventive of crime.
If such a law were in force now, and duly executed, how many deaths of disobedient and profligate children would there be in all corners of the land today?
Note the opening sentence of the verse starts with "IF" "i>i>If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother."
Which means that this punishment may have never ever been carried out.
I don't think that any son would have been willing to tempt his elders right up to that point.
Why not? Well simply to my mind, the son KNEW that his parents would definitely have had him punished. Remember too the Israelites had witnessed the God whom they worshipped and seen him in action when it came to dealing with sin. Therefore they knew without any doubt that God's injunction (a direct order) must be carried out. Or face punishment themselves for disobedience.
I would imagine the punishment would be their disobedience which would have allowed the sons to become what God in fact was wanting to avoid. Hence this Law!
As a Christian I believe in Hell, I do not question God's word on this. Many people despite the threat of going to Hell are prepared to take their chances because they are not sure whether Hell exist or not. If they could witness someone being thrown into hell, they would undoubtedly fall into line, just as the sons of the Israelites who were totally aware of their parents loyalty and obedience and what would happen if they did disobey their parents.
Keep in mind 2Peter 2:9-14
" The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children."
This is what God did not want the Sons of Israel or future generations to become.
God has given us a free will. "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" Joshua addressing his people.. Joshua 24:15
Ron
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I probably believe in Hell about as much as the author of the book of Joshua.
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