Losing Salvation?

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2010 at 12:12pm

It is written (Jn. 6:67): "Many of his disciples (everyone would think – they are saved – they are disciples) went back," i.e. apostatized, of whom Our Lord had said previously (Jn. 6:64-65): "There are some of you that believe not." Therefore apostasy pertains to unbelief in some passages, which would mean that they never had saving faith.

Only God has the privilege to know the heart of man and the true commitments of it, to us it appears that people are save because they are pious and confess to love God, but their hearts may be far from him and we who do not know this factors in any individual think they have lost salvation, when again they never had it.

The best argument i have incounter that we can lose our salvation is this one : The result of living in sin is the losing of the "living faith that saves". i think it is the condition of ones faith, more than the nature of ones sin, that determines their standing with the lord. But I believe that sin affects the nature of ones faith. so that is why i used that term (apostate) instead of the term "backslider".

Sin definitely affects the faith of a person and it’s impossible to please God without it Heb.11:6. Because faith is the life of the soul, according to Rom. 1:17: "The just man liveth by faith." Therefore, just as when the life of the body is taken away, man's every member and part loses its due disposition, so when the life of justice, which is by faith, is done away, disorder appears in all his members seems to be a logical conclusion. I follow your train of thought and I completely agree that is our faith and not works that gives us Salvation and we know that true saving faith is accompanied with works as our brother James reminds us.

We walk by Faith and not by sight...

John 6:64-65 And he said, “this is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my father. Saving faith is God's gift to us, as fallen creatures we are not capable of conjuring it up for the saving of our soul, it is the Holy Spirit who by the Father's command initiates the process of salvation within us. He gives us the faith to believe

The thing is that God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable as Romans 11:29 states it and in the inmidiate context it refers to Israel, but I think the Church can count on this saying as well. Of course the believe is that God will remain faithful, but we are the ones who fail him by walking away to willful sin and hence die.

Sin definitely affects the faith of a person but it was given to us and it will not be taken from us and we can not kill it – God is able to keep us and He does. Talk to any one who went back to the vomit or mud and they are quick to admit that God kept them, they should be eternally lost, but God kept them regardless of the years in the mud. God is the best father, but he does correct his kids, so don’t upset Him. AND THERE ARE ENOURMOUS CONSEQUENCES TO LIVING IN SIN AS CHRISTIANS,. CAN WE KILL FAITH THOUGH?

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2010 at 12:19pm

The most common saying used to support that salvation can be lost is the following:

We can walk away from God's Hand because we have free will.

We belong to a kingdom in which the king is not going to allow us to just wonder off forever to do our own thing. We belong to Him and He in his permissive will may allow us to do our own thing for as long as He permits it and He will weeb even what was ment to destroy us for His purposes. OH! My Lord is in control. Hallelujah and not men, who are just dust.

Our king loves us enough to keep us. His mercies are renew every morning. He is not like us - that is our struggle - we keep thinking there is no way you can go to the vomit and the mud for 20 years, 2 years or 40 years and then just one day say I am sorry and expect to be forgiven. Yes!!! God will forgive that person. He will not deny His own word. He is not like us, who is like our Lord? No one. We love Him so much because He is so beyond us.

If you abide in my word you are truly my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Jonh 8:31-32. Here we see that to be a true disciple, there must be perseverance in obedience to Scripture, which is the fruit or evidence of genuine faith. Real disciples are both learners and faithful followers. Those who believed superficially, emotionally or intellectually only but not with true repentance do not abide in Christ for the cares of the world taken back to the world and appear to others as they lost salvation, when they never abided in Christ

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2010 at 12:27pm

The knowladge that Jesus will sustained you WILL PLAY ALL KINDS OF TRICKS ON YOU...

It becomes a challenge in obediance and love to remain faithful to him when you know that all things, He will make them to work together for good. WHEN YOU KNOW THAT HE WIL LEAVE THE 99 FOR YOU, MAN YOU COULD EASILY SAY, I KNOW YOU WILL FORGIVE ME LATER LORD, BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TELLING YOU "I LOVE YOU AND I WILL CORRECT YOU SON," WELL, IF YOU ARE HIS, CAUSE HE DOES NOT CORRECT THOSE THAT ARE NOT HIS.

Above everything else we need to learn and fight againts, now you are challenge to Love God because He loves you so good and not because you fear loosing your salvation. That is not easy. THOSE THAT OVER COME WILL BE SAVE! RIGHT, WELL! WHO ARE THEY THAT OVER COME?

1JONH5:4-5 ...AND THIS IS THE VICTORY THAT HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD - OUR FAITH (NOT OUR ACTIONS WHICH ARE EVIDANCE OF TRUE REPENTACE AND THE H.S. IN OUR LIVES); V.5 WHO IS HE WHO OVERCOMES THE WORLD , BUT HE WHO BELIEVES THATJESUS IS THE SON OF GOD? AGAIN - NOT HE WHO KEEPS HIMSELF SAVED. WE CAN'T KEEP OURSELVES SAVE, SALVATION STARTS WITH GOD AND FINISHES WITH GOD. EVEN OUR GOOD WORKS ARE LIKE FILTHY RAGS. OUR FAITH IN HIM KEEPS US AND NOT WORKS, SO NONE SHOULD BOAST. WE ALL KNOW THAT WORKS ARE A CONSEQUENCE OF TRULY BEING SAVED.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2010 at 4:47pm

Jude 21 Keep your selves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Verses like this one continue to remind us that our salvation is not a passive one; we are to be active in the process of Sanctification. I believe this is saying that we are to be obedient and faithful by living out our salvation (Phil. 2:12), while God works out His will (Phil. 2:13). God wants us in a place where we can be shower with fellowship with Him, instead of being in a place of correction. These are the verses that are assumed to mean that we can actually lose our salvation IF we do not remain in Him.

Matthew 24:12-13 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. What can be more obvious than what is being said here? The one who endures to the end will be saved. This is what I understand by verses such as this one, in light of the rest of scripture – the ones who persevere are the same ones who are saved. Our perseverance does not secure our salvation for is not due to works, since true believers are kept by the power for God through faith for salvation. (1Pet.1:5) God says: I will put my fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from me (Jer. 32:40) those who fall away from Christ give conclusive proof that they were never truly believers to begin with. 1John 2:19 these people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us. The warnings and pleas in scripture are among the means God uses to secure our perseverance in the Faith. I see God telling us to persevere until the end in faith, not to lose faith in Him and his power to keep us and then when the word calls us to overcome the world, God tells us the following in 1John 5: For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith. 5 And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2010 at 5:01pm

Philippians 2 12 Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. 13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. NLT

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJ

This cannot refer to salvation by works (Rom.3:21-24; Eph2:8-9) or that we are to go around with fear of losing our salvation , but it does refer to the believers responsibility for an active pursuit in obedience in the process of sanctification. God can kill you if He wants, if you are rebellious, God’s correction can involve wooping us, just as our natural parents can kick woop us, God can and does correct His sons, so just as we fear our mom’s telling our earthly fathers of our disobedience we are to fear our Heavenly Father.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. – Although the believer is responsible to work (I am not saying that we are not and scripture admonishes us to work in many places), the Lord actually produces the good works and spiritual fruit in the lives believers. (John 15:5; 1 Cor.12:6).

To will and to do –God enables both the believers desires and actions. The Greek word for “will” indicates that He is not focusing on mere desires or whimsical emotions but on the studied intent to fulfill a planned purpose. God’s power makes His people willing to live godly.

good pleasure – God wants Christians to do what satisfies Him (Eph 1:5,9; 2Thess. 1:11.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2010 at 5:05pm

Are Christians separated from God when they sin? if so, in what sense?

Short and sweet - yes and no! hahaha what in the world am i talking about?

He will never leave us nor forsake us, but we loose the right relationship we can enjoy, the anointing, the Joy, the Peace. We loose the blessings that come with Christianity for the most part of course the blessing of having a father who is long suffering ant who will correct us remains, the fruit of the Spirit can not flow in sin.
Our father waits for us to remember how good it is to be under the shadow of the almighty. The prodigal son is a beautiful illustration of this. The consequences of sin are too many to enumerate here, but are horrible ones and God will correct us if we are legitimate sons of His as scripture teaches in Hebrews.

does sin separate unbelievers from God? in what sense?

Yes, Unbelievers are at enmity with God whether they realize it or not. The simple fact that they will not come to Him is a show of rebelliousness. Humanity is created by God but only through the repenting and accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior can we become children of God, hence sin separate us from the blessing of establishing eternal relationship with HIM.

. Are christians "sinners"? if yes, in what sense?

We can play ping-pong with this one boy. We are to think of our selves as God sees us. God never calls us sinners once we become his children, but we know that 1 John teaches that we all sin and anyone that says he does not sin, calls God a liar. We are not to be sinners or think of ourselves as such, but we know we sin.

The scriptural teaching is simple – As Christians we are not to walk in sin. We are not to fall into habitual sin. Sin should not be our way of life, for we are now New creations and we have been given All things pertaining to Godliness that we may walk in newness, yet we will sin. And we have a just Father who is faithful to forgive us when we truly have a contrite heart about our sin.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 3, 2010 at 5:18pm

Without going into all that has been discussed in previous debates on this topic I will add the following here.

There are two types of people. There are the “once born” and there are the “twice born.” Both are born in the natural way, but only the twice born are born of the Spirit. Can one who has been born of the Spirit become unborn? What change takes place according to the Bible? We are new creations (2 Cor. 5:17). We become children of God (1 John 3:1). Can God’s children be changed in such a way that they are not His children? Are we a part of the family and then disowned? Regarding faith. What does faith for salvation mean? It means to believe and trust. Can a person believe and trust, which is a work of God, and then somehow not believe anymore. If we believed and somehow stop believing, even for a moment, then according to the Bible we would be eternally lost and without hope (Heb. 6:4-6).

How then does God handle the rebellious child? Before going there, lets ponder another thought. As a parent would you disown your own child? I would never disown my child. I may not condone their actions or support a sinful lifestyle, but my children will always be my children. I will use proper discipline when necessary and tough love. This is what God does. He never disowns us, even if we would try to walk away we have been marked and sealed. We have been bought at a price. We are no longer are own, but His. He will discipline the wayward and rebellious as He sees fit. Hebrews 12 speaks directly to this:

HEB 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

HEB 12:6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

HEB 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

HEB 12:12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 3, 2010 at 5:25pm

What is repentance? Most give a partial definition by stating one must turn from sin and turn to God. That is true, but incomplete. This action is enable by the very meaning of the Greek word for repentance, which is "A change of mind." To truly repent there is a change in our way of thinking. We agree with God that sin is sin, God is God and that we need a Savior (Jn. 16:8-11 gives a partial picture of this followed by Romans 8). This knowledge is enabled by the work of the Holy Spirit. One cannot know these things to be true and then unknow them. For a person to walk away from God proves one of two things. They are either in rebellion or were never saved to begin with.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 3, 2010 at 5:30pm

Regarding whether a person could do whatever one wants after salvation if they could not lose their salvation does not take into account Romans 8 and Hebrew 12. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11 that due to their disobedience some had fallen asleep. There are consequences for bad behavior, just not the loss of salvation.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 3, 2010 at 5:40pm

EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are saved by grace and maintained by grace. It is God's work from beginning to end.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 3, 2010 at 5:48pm

I have one more comment to add at this point regarding the concept that one can live anyway they want after they are saved. I know my earthly dad loves me and would never disown me. I had guidelines to live by, rules of the house. Though I knew I would always be his child if dared break those rules and got caught there were always consequences. Disciplined handed out for my good because he loves me.

My heavenly Father is not going to let me do whatever I want without consequences. He will treat me as His child and discipline me for my good because He loves me. Do not discount the influence and interaction of God in the lives of the redeemed, even when we walk in rebellion.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2010 at 5:51pm

The relationship between God and believers is radically different than that of God and non-believers. Their is no denying that.

The believer living in open rebelliousness is himself separated from God as much as God allows Him to and for as long as he is allowed by God, But God will never leave him nor forsake him. He has been bought not by gold or silver, but by the blood of Christ and he is no longer his own.

I am in no way saying that our sanctification process is passive and all up to God, which seems to be the immediate conclusion of most when reading statements like the one I just wrote, but the subject is much deeper than that. It is not all easy and nicely boxed and places all responsibility on God and none on man.

God is faithful even when we are not.

When we are in sin do we share the things that are "in Jesus", (like "the life is in the Son" (1 john 5:11-12))?

The believer is secured not on works but God's work for Him. So he may not have life more abundantly, but God will finish what He started. God does not need Our permission to do that. He never says anywhere - I will finish if you let me and nothing can separate you from my love accept your own walking away from me. All are inferences made to scriptures.

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