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Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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I have been on both sides of the fence on this secondary issue and my final conviction is that we cannot lose our salvation.
I tell you how I concluded eternal security is a fact. When I see verses teaching that God will keep us, without stading, if you want to be kept, if you abide in him, if this or that.... no He simply states through so many ways: I SAVED YOU AND I WILL KEEP YOU. Having that knowledge then I in counter verses that appear to say that I can lose my salvation, not directly, but they sound like they are teaching that. That would create a bonafide contradiction, not an apparent contradiction, but contradiction and I have learned that any apparent contradiction is only lack of knowledge in my part, so using the verses that speak directly on God's ability to finish what He started in us regardless of what we want, for we belong to him and God has the right in our lives to do good, and keeping us in his ways is GOOOOODDDDDD!!!! I am force by the word of God to reconcile those verses accordingly; otherwise God would be lying about how he can keep us.
Let me explain it like this in light of Matthew 24:13 and Col 1:23, both verses mentioned enduring to the end:
Matthew 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
The ones who persevere are the same ones who are saved---not the ones whose love grows cold (v.12). This does not suggest that our perseverance secures our salvation. Scripture everywhere teaches precisely the opposite. God, as part of His saving work, secures our perseverance. True believers are “are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation” (1 Pet.1:5).
The guarantee of our perseverance is built into the New Convenent promise. God says: “I WILL PUT My FEAR IN THEIR HEARTS SO THAT THEY WILL NOT DEPART FROM ME” (Jer. 32:40). Those who do fall away from Christ give conclusive proof that they were never truly believers to begin with.
To say that God secures our perseverance is not to say that we are passive it the process, however. He keeps us “through faith” (1 Peter 1:5) ---our faith. Scripture sometimes calls us to hold fast to our faith (Heb. 10:23, Rev. 3:11) or warns us against falling away (Heb. 10:26-29). Such admonitions do not negate the many promises that true believers will persevere (John 10:28-29, Rom. 8:38-39; 1 Cor. 1:8-9; Phi. 1:6) Rather, the warnings and pleas are among the means God uses to secure our perseverance in the faith, Notice that the warnings and the promises often appear side by side. For example, when Jude urges believers, “keep yourselves in the love of God” (Jude 21-24), he immediately points them to God, “who is able to keep you from stumbling. I used the McArthur Study bible to helped me with some notes here.
So this is how I reconcile this apparent contradiction. If scripture teaches God will keep us and then it tells us that we can lose our salvation then we have a discrepancy.
And the bilbe does not contradict it self!! -
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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David,
The way you build your argument is so simplistic, that I must have missed something.
Are you saying that when Adam & Eve sinned because they had FREE will to obey God's will or not is because they NEVER believed in Him in the first place?
That's what you seem to be saying when you state "Those who do fall away from Christ give conclusive proof that they were never truly believers to begin with.
If so, you are in error. -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Yael,
I am getting the impression that you are no longer asking questions but attempting to stir up trouble. Your obvious attitude on this post completely gives you away. Either that or you are totally ignorant of Scripture which you appear not to be.
The sarcasm of the above statements appear to me that you are attempting to put down David. If you are a Jew seeking answers, this is not the way to get them. I am thinking you have an alternate purpose. If not, and you really are a seeker of Jesus, I suggest you tone it down a little and get serious about your questions. This response is way off. If you knew Scripture as well as you think you would understand that Adam and Eve did not have the sin nature that you and I have. Therefore, any comparison to them is invalid.
I read one of David's response to you and he spent the time to lay our for your the plan of salvation. I think you have enough answers. He also told you that this discussion was not for you since you are a confessed unbeliever. If you are truly a seeker of Jesus, you should be discussing how to come to Him. This is not a discussion for you in my opinion. I pray that all your questions about Him will be answered and you do come to Him.
Roy -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Yael-
You have been given so much help, love and attention friend, because we love people, that is what we do, we are Christians, but I am not gonna get in an argument with you. You are not part of my family in Christ. I discuss all things pertaining to God and Godliness with God's people and friends who are truly seeking to understand and not simply trying to get me going.
You are not in control of my emotions and you do not upset me Yael. God and my own free will/my strongest inclinations are in control of my person. My strongest inclination at this point is to tell you that you have been love here and you are welcome to asked away friend, but questions that seek to embrace an honest pursuit of truth.
You seemed to be an intelligent man, Tell me friend, would you ask me what the experience of being marry is about and like, if I have never been married? Of course not, that would be illogical.
So you are trying to understand Christianity when you are not born again. That my friend is illogical. We can spend day and night explaining things to you and you will never truly understand the Spiritual truth we may labor to explain.
I mean you can understand the historical validity of the church, of Christ. You can recognize the abundance of evidence our faith has through manuscript evidence, archeological finding, prophecies fulfilled in Christ and statistical evidence, but your heart would still not understand the beauty of being in Christ.
Repent of your sins before a holy and merciful God and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children. Repent and believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior. Repent of your sins and your eyes will be open and then you will see clearly.
For now my friend I have to go spend time with my lovely family and I do pray that my Lord, the great I AM may effectually work in your heart.
Blessings to you and your home. -
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Our free will is limited by the fall, before we are save and always limited by Gods Perfect will.
Before one is save, we can not choose to follow God (Prevenient grace, before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man) before the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. Hence our free will is driven to the sinful nature only. So is that fullness of free will, of course not... I was free to sin but not to choose God without Him working in my heart first. Not one has sought after God, Paul states in Romans and if someone out there thinks they chose God, well they better spend time studying these deep truths. We were borne in sin and totally depraved. God is the initiator and finisher of our faith.
After we are born again - our free will goes out the window. We now belong to God. We no longer belong to ourselves our do you ignore that we have been redeemed, bought with the precious blood of the Lamb. Not silver or Gold. If you by a car in cash, does it belong to itself, the dealership or someone else???? No way it belongs to you. He is the potter and we the clay- is the clay apt to tell the potter what he wants to be formed into?
Jonah wanted to do his own thing but God said, you are going to preach my word in Nineveh whether you like it or not. Does God violate the will of man? not at the time that the Spirit is filling us with conviction onto repentance. But once we are his - He is God.
No one can snatch us of the fathers hand - Oh! but we can jump out of his hand or walk away from his hand we say.... No way, the No one, includes you as well. You mean to tell me you are stronger than God and you are able to walk away from His will?? His will is that Jesus not loose even one that He has given to Him. Do we know of any place in the bible were Gods will fails? -
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John 5:24 We will never come into judgment (we will go to the Judgment seat of Christ 2Chor. 5:9), we passed from death to life, most assuredly our Lord says.
John 6:37-40 The will of the father is that Jesus not loose even one that the Father has given him. Will Jesus fail the father. No way - we are not stronger in any level to God.
John 10:27-30 His sheep know his voice and follow Him. Even if that sheep was wondering for a long time, years, my dog tripped me out. After I finished a 4 year sentence in Prison and came back home, he still recognized me, and that is my dog. God will not leave us nor forsake us, even when we choose to walk away from righteous living. He will correct us if we are His. If we are His we will recognize His voice 4 or 40 years later.
Rom. 5:9-10"...We should be saved by His life." not by good works, which of course are evidence of being a true believer, but is His perfect life and sacrifice that takes us to heaven. We are in his hands and He will allow us to walk away as far as He permits. He is sovereign. All is in his control.
WE CAN NOT HAVE AN UNMOVABLE OBJECT AND A SOVEREING BEING AT THE SAME TIME AND SPACE. WE EITHE HAVE COMPLETE FREE WILL AND ARE UNMOVABLE EVEN BY GOD OR GOD IS GOD - SOVEREING.
Romans 8:1 No condemnation ... the best and oldest manuscripts do not include: "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." It is found on v.4, perhaps indicating an inadvertent copyist insertion. No condemnation for us who are in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah.... So brothers is night out this weekend for us men, let us go to the bar and get drunk - MAY IT NEVER BE!!!! THIS KNOWLADGE IS NOT TO MAKE YOU WANT TO SIN, BUT TO MAKE YOU FALL IN YOUR FACE OUT OF GRADITUDE THAT GOD LOVES YOU SOOOOOO MUCHHHHHHH TO KEEP YOU DISPITE YOURSELF. HE IS IN CONTROL....
Romans 8:31-39 What can separate us from God??????????????????? -
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Believers who endure give evidence of the genuineness of their faith
(John 8.31).
If we deny Him, he also will deny us speaks of a final, permanent denial, such as that of an apostate, not the temporary failures of a son of God. Those that deny the Lord give evidence that they never truly belong to him (John 8:31 – If you are truly my disciple…) and give evidence that they never truly belonged to Him (1 John 2:19) and face the fearful reality of one day being denied by Him. 1Tim. 1:19 the false teachers ignored their consciences and the truth, and as a result, suffered shipwreck of the Christian faith. This does not imply loss of salvation of a true believer but likely indicates the serious loss that comes to Apostates. They had been in the church and heard the gospel but rejected it in favor of the false doctrine defined in vv. 3-7. Apostasy is the turning away from the gospel, having once known it,. Heb.2:3-4; 3:12-15; 6:1-8; 10:26-31.
Faithless- the lack of saving faith, not to weak or struggling faith. Unbelievers will ultimately deny Christ because their faith was not genuine (James 2:14-26) He remains faithful-As faithful as Jesus is to save those who believe in Him, He is equally faithful to judge those who do not. -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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The key question is when does spiritual change (salvation) take place? When do we become a new creation spiritually and are sealed, marked and indwelt by the Holy Spirit? At the time we surrender to Jesus as Savior. This is not a future event, but a done deal in the hear and now. The body awaits being changed.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Michelle,
I truely, honestly, think your assertion is right. BUt who am I to argue with people who have been reading the scriptures for much longer than I have.
What is 8 months compared to sometimes a whole life of Bible study? But one thing I must tell you. Sometimes, the longer a person choses to believe in a certain thing, the harder it is for them to admit that they might be wrong.
So, if you feel that the way it to perservere in the teachings of Christ. Live what you believe. God will not let you remain in error if He sees that you sincerely seek the truth. He himself will tell you.
THere is no need to submitt to any-one's opinions. Because that is what they are!
Good luck! -
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Yael,
How long have you believed that Jesus, the Bible and the church are in error? Could you be wrong and it be difficult for you to admit it? How do I know you believe this way? You admit you are not a Christian.
Are you truly seeking Him or seeking to cause discord? If you are truly seeking Him you will be embraced. If you are seeking to cause discord you will find your way out of AAG pretty quick.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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1John 5: For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith. 5 And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
This is what I see more than our perseverance, our preservation. We overcome by believing in Jesus and not our performance.
How do we explain Hebrews 6:4 for it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come- 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.If we say these verses are saying that true Christians that fall away are impossible to bring back to repentance then we have to rewrite much of the bible that tells us how God’s Mercy is renewed daily. ENLIGHTEN – intellectual understanding, they have receive biblical instruction. Understanding the Gospel does not mean a person is saved or regenerated. See John 1:9 where it is obvious that Jesus enlightens everyone born in the world. TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT – This can only be a Christian we say, but all men experience the general goodness of God, but that does not mean that they are all saved. Tasting Jesus or the Holy Spirit (the gift), the Gospel does not guarantee salvation. Many people experience a tasted (as many do today as well) the miracles of Jesus, they are around the church or church folks, but do not go beyond a taste, like the seeds that felt on the rocks or by the side way, or among the thorns etc… only one seed felt on good ground. PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT = the concept of partaking is used in 3:1, 3:14 and 12:8 of a relationship that only believers have , but the context must be the final determining factor her. This context 4-6 seems to exclude true believers. People can partake of the works (miracles) of the Holy Spirit and not accept Christ. The convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit can be rejected which makes them partakers in such way. The impossibility of THOSE THAT FALL AWAY to be RENEWED TO REPANTANCE is because they have rejected Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. With full revelation they rejected the truth such as the Pharisees did in their time.
If we want to make these verses to mean that we can lose our salvation then we have to admit that once lost, one could never get it back, for it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance. -
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Hebrews 10 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. 30 For we know the one who said, “I will take revenge. I will pay them back.” He also said, “The Lord will judge his own people.” 31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. 33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. 34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever. 35 So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you! 36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. 37 “For in just a little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. 38 And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.” 39 But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.
These verses deal with the sin of Apostasy. Apostates are people who get close to the things pertaining to God and salvation, but intentionally fall away, they understand the Gospel, but rebel and walk away. Not all the Hebrews would respond to the gentle invitation of vv.19-25. The writer excludes himself and genuine believers from those who turn back (v.39). Sin willfully – the sin is rejecting Christ deliberately. Knowledge – the Greek term denotes specific knowledge, not general spiritual knoladge(6:4, 1Tim. 2:4). Judas is a good example of a disciple who had no lack of knowledge, but lack faith and became the arch-apostate. No longer – the apostate is beyond salvation -
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