Why Are churches and congregations still think that it doesn't matter which day you worship the lord on?? Is it because they are blinded by self-righteousness or just plain arrogance??
One of the Lord's Commandments is, Not forget the sabbath, and to Keep it Holy. So why will they obey some of the commandments, yet disobey others??
It is by who keeps the Sabbath, that God will know who his children really are.
I would like to know what others think about what I have written.
Sabbath can be the everyday of your life. As the Lord Comment "Not forget the sabbath,and to keep it Holy. You can't keep the Sabbath Day if your life is not Holy. God says "Be Holy for I AM Holy". Here the Lord is asking us to be Holy at all time, despite the day.
As long as we keep the Holiness of God in our life, everyday will be the day of our worship and praising Him and no foul will stand against us.
to scribe
to your first question,yes.
act 1:5 they had just spent 40 days with jesus being taught by him after his death and were to to wait in jerusalem until they recieved the holy spirit promised to them by GOD .that the holy spirit would guide them to all truths ,to led them ,lead the lost, empower them.to conform us to the image of christ. to show us our wickedness. see john 16:13 to be a witness of jesus. john 15:26 is the holy spirits job.
acts 2:1 their the were on pentacost
acts 20:6 passover, feast of unleaven bread
acts 2o:16 pentecost
acts 27:9 day of atonement ( a day of fasting)
1cort. 5:7-8 passover, day of unleaven bread
acts 18:18 shaved his head for purification vows
after the war of 70.a.d. the temple was burned to the ground all jews either killed or sold into slavery. the christians had all escaped to pella just before the war started, (some say they were told to flee the city by GOD).when dominitian became ruler he hated the jews or anything jewish. he had them put to death . trajan also did .... hadrian went so far as to outlaw jewish practices by threat of torture or death,because they refused to worship him, the christian & jews alike... many who claimed to be christian on the surface decided to change the day of assembly to the romans eyes... so they would not be killed they choice sunday.
to reply to your statement of people who keep the 7 day worship of GOD, that if i cry as you put it over my sins it is because of the shame that i feel for that sin that i have committed against my father that is the cause of my tears.....i look down on no one thats not my duty to do,nor do i feel superior to any.. the only self control i have is the leading of the holy spirit that GOD has in his mercy & grace given to be my teacher..... being human (flesh) i will at times stumble or fall but the holy spirit waste no time grabbing my heart & letting me know this is not GODS will or way.( like a father will grab a child to warn them of approaching danger) we just need to hear & obey that voice...the laws of GOD he has wri tten not on tablets of stone as O.T Israel , but on the tablets of our hearts fulfilling his promise of a new covenant with spiritual Israel & spiritual Judah. SEE JER. 31: 31-34 o.t. & HEBREWS 8:10.... his laws..
i put my faith in my Father in JESUS & the HOLY SPIRIT for they are all LOVE.GOD knows my needs & will always supply them / shelter/food/ water/ clothing/ i have no more need (physical bodily fleshly) then of those things ( will maybe a car to get them home in) i little humor there... but my love for is just as strong as yours..
could you show me where in the bible the day of the 7 day worship was changed. i can not find it in my bible anywhere..
Delores, in no way do I attempt to say that I have more love or more devotion for God than you or anyone else. God forbid; I do not ever put myself as the example of faith or Godliness.
Quite the opposite: if not for the Holy Spirit - I would be a complete scoundrel. As Paul said "I am the chief of sinners". This is why I love Jesus - because he first loved me. Not because love for God is in my heart, but rather because God has totally forgiven all of my hatred.
My comments and points about the New Covenant and the Amazing Grace that God has granted are NOT about me. Not at all. My point is that Christians continue to be deceived that we are under the Covenant of Moses. It is most clearly revealed by the Prophets, the LORD Jesus and the Apostles that we have been granted a NEW COVENANT (shouting intended, but with gracious humility).
Those Old Covenant people (Sabbatarians) are adamant that we must keep law and be under law. They say that we must be held to keeping specific provisions of the Old Covenant or risk being judged as the enemies of God. Yet, those same people think that they can modify and excerpt parts of the Covenant of Moses, while demanding other people keep some portions as per their own interpretation. (ie. you must keep the weekly Sabbath, but not the ceremonial Sabbaths; you must keep tithing law of sacrificing goods and money to God, but not the law of passover sacrifices of lambs).
Such a concept is accursed! Nowhere does God say that you can pick and choose which parts of Torah to keep and which to forsake! Rather, God is very clear - to do such a thing is accursed! You either keep the whole law, or you don't! Period! So, we know this: the Apostles did not keep the whole law of Moses. In fact, they gave new commandments to the new gentile believers.
Consider these warnings from the Torah:
"...If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth...However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you..." (Deuteronomy 28:1, 15)
"...Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, 'This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.."
"...Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven..." (Matthew 5:19)
So, we would have a problem, since the Apostles did not keep the whole law after the Resurrection; Unless the Law has been fulfilled. And so I tell you that unless Christ has fulfilled the Law, then the Apostles were deceivers. Did the Prophets and Apostles tell us that the Messiah/Christ would/did fulfill the Law? YES. They were emphatic that he fulfilled ALL of the Messianic requirements, that he was the one about whom the prophets spoke. (the one and only).
Jeremiah said Messiah would bring a "New Covenant". Paul, Peter, John and James all agreed that Jesus was the Messiah and that he brought a "New Covenant". Therefore it is imperitive for us to LEARN the New Covenant.
The Covenant, the Law and the Temple were the threefold chord of the Old Covenant. Jesus fulfilled them and replaced them with his own:
1. Christ has ratified the Covenant in his own blood.
2. His own body has become the temple - and we are also the temple as the Holy Spirit now indwells the believer.
3. His Apostles clearly revealed that Jesus brought us a new law, one that is written on the heart. (see Jeremiah 31:31 and Romans 8)
It is the Sabbatarians who are failing to keep the whole law; it is the Sabbatarians who are teaching men to break the law, by saying we need to keep weekly Sabbaths, but not the 7 Ceremonial Sabbaths; by saying we must keep the law of the tithe, but not the other sacrifices. For me, Christ is the fulfillment of the law and I am now bound by the new law, the New Covenant - that is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Before someone would argue the point of which parts we are compelled to keep of the Old Covenant, they should carefully review whether they understand that covenant at all - since it is a unity. (you cannot pick and choose pieces of it). Furthermore, before someone decides to teach anything about the Law, they should learn what the New Covenant is, what it's requirements are and what is at risk for failing to keep it. (See the book of Hebrews).
In answer to your final question: "...show me where in the bible the day of the 7 day worship was changed..." Please review all that I have written on this specific forum topic. I have covered it extensively. If you start with my first reply, you will see that I have demonstrated that the Church (Christ's Holy Church) was "born" on the first day of the week, in fulfillment of the Sabbath of Firstfruits (Pentecost). That was God's stamp of approval (His divine directive) on this specific change - and that the Apostles kept the first day of the week as a memorial of the "New Creation" of the Resurrection of Christ.
Along with what Scribe has said I will add a couple of things. Those who worship on the first day of the week do not have to prove from Scripture or history that there was a transference of the Sabbath Law to the first day. The responsibility lays at the feet of the Sabbitarian who claims to be a Christian to prove that the Sabbath Law is valid in the New Covenant for Christians to keep. I said before, and will repeat, we do not observe the Sabbath on Sunday, we do not observe it at all as a Law that we are bound to.
The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are two separate covenants. You will find in the N.C. many of the principles taught in the O.C. with out the requirement of Law or punishment for failure to adhere to the previous rules. One of the greatest errors that we battle within the church is an attempt to meld the O.C. an the N.C. together, and I must admit it has been a struggle for me as I continue to wade through some of the old preconceptions.
What Scripture can we see that clearly teaches a separation between the two covenants and a release from the Sabbath Law for Christians?
1. Jesus came to fulfill the law (Mat. 5:17). This verse standing alone leaves us with much confusion and both sides with the ability to debate what is meant by "fulfill." God's Word is wonderfully put together and few verses need ever stand alone, but are supported in context by other Scripture. There is another verse that is often overlooked that when partnered with Matthew 5:17 brings things into focus.
2. Romans 10:4 states, "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" (NIV). The context of Romans 10:4 is that Christ is the conclusion of the Law. He did not do away with it, for it stands but in Him is the culmination of the Law for all who believe in Him and are thereby freed from the power and requirements of the Law. This is clearly seen through the remainder of Romans 10.
3. Jesus, when asked about the Law and which is the greatest pointed us to love, not actions or required acts in Matthew 22:37-40. Paul gives another wonderful truth regarding the lack of the O.C.'s power over us and our requirement to keep the letter of the Law. Galatians 6:2 states, "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ" (NIV).
4. The author of the Book of Hebrews takes this another step when he describes the "N.C." and the "will" in chaptrers 9 and 10.
5. Hebrews 10:1 is often quoted and then prefaced by many saying that it is speaking of future events and thus the Law is still valid. This cannot be so when we put 10:1 into context with the next verses in chapter 10. Verse one points to the inability of the regular sacrifices to cleanse people once for all. Whereas in verse 10 we see that Christ is the sacrifice that does cleanse once for all and that cleansing began at Calvary and is still cleansing all who call upon the name of the Lord.
6. Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman in John 4 clearly tells us that the old system was about to be replaced. Pay close attention to what Jesus said about Jerusalem in verse 21. Many of the feasts/celebrations and requirements focused on Jeruslaem. The simple fact that Jesus removes Jerusalem as the center piece for worship and expands true worship to being those who worship in spirit and truth. Note in verse 23 that Jesus now states, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks" (NIV).
7. Large portions of Romans and of Galatians clearly teach us to not be enslaved by the Law, but live free in Christ by His grace.
8. Lastly, I return to Polycrates. In the letter that he sent to Vistor he states that John. the others and he kept the passover according to the gospels. Notice he did not say according to the Law. If we do a scan of the passover in the N.T. and see how it was treated we find an interesting truth. Jesus, still under law before the crucifixion, obeyed the Sabbath that He may fulfill the law. This is expected all the way up to the cross. This adherance is not the "according to the gospels" for adherance to the O.C. does not reveal the principle for the N.C.. Thus, where do we find the principle for us who follow the N.C. in the gospels? We find it clearly in two places. In the gospels we find Jesus teaching us at the Last Supper the memorial regarding Him as He offered the bread (His body) and the cup (His blood of the New Covenant which was about to be shed for mankind). The gospels teach us communion/Lord's Supper. Paul reaffirms this in 1 Corinthians as He tell us that this is the what the Lord gave him that he passes on to them. What event is referenced here? The Last Supper.
9. For those who argue celebrating Easter we need only understand the meaningo f communion. We proclaim His death, resurrection and our expectation of His soon return. All three aspects are critical to sound doctrine and true faith.
Scipture and history reveal a first day of the week worship from early on, but that is not the most important part. The key is whether adherance to the Sabbath is valid and it is clear if one will honestly (in my opinion) look at the Word that it is not a part of the New Covenant. Sunday was chosen for a good reason, but that is secondary in regards to one attempting to defend the necessity of keeping the Sabbath.
"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." Exodus 20:8-11
I've noticed that the Lord said nothing about a specific day, at least not in this passage. We were just to work six days, and on the seventh, rest, as He did when He created all things. What exactly "day" means according to the creation account is up to you, I suppose. I'm not about to get into an old earth, young earth discussion. Did the Lord establish the seven day week, or did we? It's interesting that seven days doesn't divide equally either into a solar year or lunar month, according to what I've found. It seems to me that the Sabbath can fall on any day of the week, not just any specific day. For example, if we begin working on a Monday and work for six days, the Sabbath will fall on Sunday. If we begin working on Friday, the Sabbath will fall on Thursday.
Thomas, in all respect, I have to disagree with this comment by yourself: "...What exactly "day" means according to the creation account is up to you, I suppose..."
God was very specific about the "day" of worship and rest under the Old Covenant (OC). He does not leave this open to private interpretation. He was also specific that the OC was given to Israel and that it would last until the coming of Messiah/Christ. Under Christ, we have been granted a New Covenant (NC).
To answer your question "any thoughts on this?": We have discussed this topic exhaustively since July, on this thread. What we are discussing at this point is whether we are still under the OC in any form, or not. What is pertinent is whether Christ has truly fulfilled the Law, or not. Sabbatarians are trying to convince people of two things:
1. we must continue to keep Sabbath and that we are still under Law.
2. that they can pick and choose which laws to keep, and which to discard.
Both premises are dangerously false.
If you have interest in those two premises in any way, you may want to review the detailed refutations that both LT and I have given, among others. We have taken great pains to give scriptural evidence, logical scriptural analyses and historical reference points that show that neither of those two premises can be true - that Christ truly has given us a New Covenant.
i will try to reply to you. jesus rising on the sunday had nothing( My thinking only) with the sabbath being replaced by sunday. before his death he told the apostles that ...... for as Jonah was 3 days & 3 nights in the belly of the great fish,so will the son of man be 3 days & 3 nights in the heart of the earth.. MATT.12:40. LUKE 11:30 MK.27:63..... also in o.t. JONAH 1:17 .
as the sabbath was the day before sunday he had to keep the sabbath day of rest, THE LAW... that he couldn"t break. as soon as the sabbath was ended at daybreak on the first day SUNDAY he rose... MATT28:1 MK.16:2 LUKE 24:11 & JOHN 20:1.
yes i agree he fullfilled all the law & all the prophets that were spoken of him having to do with his birth, his sufferings, death on the cross & his ressurrection as stated in MATT 5 :17. he also fullfilled the old ceremonial sacrifical laws and became our sacrifical lamb< high priest
as far as having to keep the whole law there lays my faith in my father, savior & the holy spirit. its not a burden and you just read the bible and listen to the holy spirit inside you and you start to see if you take the time to seek, read, pray, have faith ,then you will find the narrow road is not so hard after all. even when you stumble or fall you have a helper to lift you back up.( my own opinion)
GODS LAWS were given for our benefit to help guide us to a good moral, spiritual, physical and mental life.because he love us so. read the torah for yourself . your only cursed if you disobeyed. look at the world today ...rampartly over-weight, sickness , diseasies ,unhappy ,crime out of control....
the o.t. is the shadow of good things to come but not all is fullfilled yet in the n.t.
passover lamb , sunday rising of jesus was to fullfill the wavy sheaf offering which he was. this all explained in LEV 23.
( Jesus) (Jesus)
the wavy of the sheaf on the sunday after the sabbath of unleaven bread.. remember count 7 sundays +1 day to pentecost.
Jesus was the first fruits of new grain offering to be wavy before GOD , to be accepted by GOD as the first fruits of the harvest.jesus was called the first fruits in the n.t. first from the dead.... the first born .he had to rise & go to his father in heaven.... ascended to heaven before he was counted as accepted... then as in the o.t. that is followed by another harvest later.. on pentecost (we as believers in christ will be that gathing at the last day..). pentecost i agree was our salvation day.. i hope i have covered all you ask and explain the wave sheaf to where it is under standable
Delores, regarding your quote: "...read the torah for yourself . your only cursed if you disobeyed..."
It should be obvious to you, if you have read my comments on this thread, that I have done so. I sat under the teaching of more than one Messianic Jew for several years. I own and have studied a Chumash, I have read the Talmud. Though I do not claim to have mastery of it by any means, I do study Hebrew and have taken time to read the entire Torah and the Tenacht many times. I am familiar with both the Septuagint versions and the Hebraic versions of the Old Testament. I continue to study the OT on an on-going basis.
In fact, when I was a younger Christian I knew your arguments and fought for them vigorously. I do not claim to be an expert, nor to be an authority. However, scripture is the authority and I have seen where scripture clearly demonstrates the old covenant to be "obsolete" (God's term, not mine). Like you, I had a hard time coming to the conclusion that my position was ill informed - I had a hard time concluding that keeping the Law was my own fleshly attempt to improve on Christ's final and completed work.
You have hinted at the notion that I believe we should not keep the law. God forbid. What I have said is that we are not under the law. We now live to a higher standard. We live by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which has set us free from the law of sin and death (Moses).
I really do wish that you would take time to read the entirety of the New Covenant, in context, understanding the Hebrew context of scripture and discover what the Apostles are leading us to understand. It really is much more radical and much more powerful than you can understand by harping on about keeping the Sabbath.
As I have said exhaustively, the weekly Sabbath is only one small part. You cannot rip that out of the fuller context of Sabbaths in the Covenant. (Please don't make me detail the ceremonial, agricultural and socialogical Sabbaths).
I want to challenge your statement: "...the o.t. is the shadow of good things to come but not all is fullfilled yet in the n.t...." This statement comes from a false premise, a misunderstanding, which is that the NT writings are a fulfillment of OT (whether partial or complete). Far from it - Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. Christ alone. Not the writings, not the church, not an institution. Christ Jesus, Period. The substance of the full measure of who the Savior is - Jesus Christ.
Until you come to see Christ as the fulfillment of the Law, indeed the fulfillment of all scripture, you have missed the bigger picture and the main point. He is the substance of all scripture. This is what John was telling us in his Gospel, chapter 1. He is the Word of God, incarnate.
Like the Scribes and Pharisees, I believe you are seeing the facts and missing the point. ["You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me..." - John 5:39]
It is the Apostles themselves who told us that Jesus has fulfilled the Law, it is the point of the greater part of the entire NT. Missing this point is to miss everything. Take time to research how many times the word "fulfilled" is used throughout the NT. Take time to count how many prophesies are detailed, showing that Jesus has fulfilled them. Take time to read each of the times that Jesus quotes the OT. You will find that Jesus usually quotes a passage at the beginning of a major theme in the OT, usually at the beginning of that chapter.
This is Jesus' way of showing us that we are to read that passage and see what he is saying. The Pharisees understood this, and were deeply convicted by the implications, which is why they hated Jesus. He was likening them to the people whom God says he will judge.
What I hope you will discover is that Jesus is far more than you understand him to be at this point. His fulfillment is far greater than you have grasped. To diminish this, is to dimish the state of peril before God, for those who are without Christ. It is also to diminish the state of amazing blessing for those who are found to be "in Christ".
Consider this scripture: "...I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” - Luke 7:28 Why would Jesus say that? How could he say John is the greatest and yet there are others who are greater? About whom is he speaking? I tell you that Jesus is speaking about those who are born of the Spirit.
John was fully a man of the Old Covenant. He kept the Law, he honored God. And Jesus tells us that he is the greatest of all of humanity - the greatest of all the prophets. And yet those who are THE LEAST in the Kingdom, are greater than John - the greatest of all prophets.
How can that be? It can be because those whom The Son has set free are free indeed. (ref John 8:36) It is because we follow a risen Savior who has delivered us from death to life. It is because we are no longer slaves of sin, but we have received the adoption of sonship.
Yes, it is profitable to learn the OT, but we must not be captured under it. We are not under law, if we are in Christ. We have received "greater promises".
scribe sorry its taken so long to respond to you. been under the weather.
i know jesus is our lord & savior. with out him we would remain condenmed. i know he was sent for that purpose, as written but never 1 time did he preach on annulling his fathers laws. his mission was to fullfill the prophecies, to preach the way to heaven thru him only, teaching us his love & GODS love as he went for 3 yrs.he taught on the laws like on divorce. if you get a divorce unless your partner dies you are not to remarry at all . if you do its adultery in GODS eyes ,in jesus eyes. in paul teachings, see ROMANS 7:1-6 MATT5:31-32 . matt. 19;9 repeats this . .... the commandment was taught by paul in EPH.6:1-3... to honor your father & mother.
LUKE 24:44 these are the words which i spoke to you while i was still with you, that all things must be fullfilled which were written in the law of moses & the prophets & the psalms ..... (CONCERNING ME).. not concerning him annulling his fathers laws......show me one prophescy that states he would do this.... it talks of his birth, his rejection by israel ,his trail .sufferings ,death & burial.. i have not found any where anything about him annulling the laws. they are part of GODS love for us. holy & good. the ceremionial laws only were destroyed when the temple curtain was torn down the middle,a curtain reported to be 40 ft. tall & 4 in. thick.
i would never dimish jesus or GOD.
and yes jesus did say in LUKE 7:28 that john was the least because all those before john as will as john himself had not the privledge of the holy spirit given to the christians ..... even john was unsure if jesus was the savior or not...
jesus dead for my sins to be forgiven me & with all he has done for me, a sinner by nature , i want to know him and that is thru loving him & ( to me) doing what pleases him & GOD.
liberty from the law does not mean its gone.................freedom from the law does not mean the law is gone.....................
under grace does not mean the law is gone................UNDER GRACE (undeserved merit ) means GOD grants that sin is not so dead in us that it is utterly EXTINCT, for it is still there within us waiting... waiting ...waiting.. to emerge creep in on us , BUT GOD has promised US victory to those who contend because we have the grace of GOD , given to us which works so that sin does not dominate over our lives, the same sin does no longer have the same power to hold us prisoners. we are FREE FROM BONDAGE. we still have that sin nature in us until we die.
the holy bible is all about the love of a GOD who dearly loves his children ,who are his by faith forgives us when we repent .....GOD is LOVE and to show my faith & love to him i learn all that he hates & all that pleases him...... there is no law upon doing good ..... only evil in GODS eyes & he will judge me, not man ..
ask yourself , what day was Christ's resurrection on. Also, what feast day was it , and what is the 8th day all about in God's timetable. God isnt mixed up about day and months. If you keep the law legalistically then you have missed the intent of Grace and its reality. The origional sabbath was the day God rested. Now ask yourself what did God create on the 7th day
and You'll discover He created Rest. He also stated that those who fail to believe will never enter into His Rest. Rest and Salvation are synonymous. No salvation , no rest, no sabbath. Hope that isnt too deep, think about it. By the way, the Law is just baby food. Jesus took us from prohibition of acts to the intent of the heart, so its no longer did you commit the act but did you harbor it in your heart. We are held to a higher standard. The jews continued to keep the sacrifical sabbath after the final Sacifice was given{The Lamb of God] So God destroyed the temple and put an end to the practice. It was not the reality but only a picture of the Reality. I celebrate the First day, because it s the day my Lord rose from the dead and was seen of men. It was the Jewish feast day of First Fruit, of while our Lord is the first fruit of those born from the dead. I celebrate our Lord Jesus,who kept the law, and the One who kept the law , keeps me. Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Be careful not to allow tradition or false piety to interfere with your personal Christ. He sees your heart. Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? I know it seems like an obligation to keep the commandments, but they were the school master to teach us. Well in Christ I dont have to just know about Him vicariously. I can know HIm personally. I would ask sabbath keepers why they keep one day above another. No part of my daily communication with Jesus is done out of obligation, its all a celebration of His glorious defeat and victory over death and the grave, so that my future is sure. Dont just talk about God, talk to God. He will give you peace about what day to celebrate HIs Life. A photo of your spouce is not your spouce , only a facsimile.Your spouse is not a photo. Your spouce is warm and caring and lovingly tangible. Christ is the same way. God gave us pictures of the reality before Christ came. But they were not the Reality. Celebrate the Reality. WE love Your Lord God, teach us to love you more. God bless you.