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Trinity
I want to know more about the existences of this trinity and some fact to proof it from the scripture. Thanks
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Hellofull,
I went back and reread every post by all participants here, paying special attentions to yours of course, since you are the only one here rejecting the biblical truth of the deity.
On your first post about the topic you asked: “But God's plural references to Himself indicated not a plural of quantity, but a plural of majesty. And even if we consider such way of thinking that it is a plural of quantity ... why limit it to two? It could be three or four or five.”
I suppose God could be a million in one if He wanted, but He reveals himself to be 3 in 1, so that is why we believe Him to be so. God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit have the same Attributes.
You then stated on the same first post – “agree that the pronoun "us" is plural. Please notice that neither the verse mention that the pronoun "us" here is limited to two nor it refers to the Christ and the Holy Spirit. And if we continue reading verse "27" it is even clearer that God alone made us.”
In order for us to get a right understanding of any biblical doctrine it is essential that we consider all the bible has to say about the topic and that we view those verses in context, while relying heavily on the teaching of the Holy Spirit. You asked us to take notice that on Gen. 1:26 - that neither the verse mention that the pronoun "us" here is limited to two nor it refers to the Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Yes Sir we know that – no argument there, however the word goes on to reveal the Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also God, we conclude that by the many attributes they share and other facts.
Sister Carla on her response made this statement to you:
There is much more on this topic....our finite minds cannot fully grasp the concept of the Trinity....but Scripture indicates it is so.
Hellofull we do not put logic, reason or our intellect a side when we are born again, actually for the first time we can truly reason with wisdom from above, but one thing we understand is that we are dealing with Spiritual matters and it’s the Spirit of God that must enlightenment us, without his assistance we are left to our logic, and we can look around and see how far human logic has taken us.
You say: We must not add our own interpretations to these verses.
Yes, Elohim is plural but not in number but majesty. Plural of majesty.
You are contradicting your self – you say WE MUST NOT ADD OUR OWN INTERPRETAITONS TO THESE VERSES AND INMIDATELY AFTER YOU ADD YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION TO IT BY SAYING THE PLURALITY HAS TO DO WITH MAJESTY AND NOT NUMBER HAHAHA -hahaha you are inconsistent and contradict yourself, YOU CRACK ME UP MAN. The lie you have believe can never overcome the truth. Where does the bible teach that Mr.
You say: Ignatius was the first to teach the Divinity of Christ. You can try check your own history books with that. But not the Apostles nor Christ himself.
Scripture clearly shows the Deity, but you won’t see it because you been indoctrinated different. You never answered my comments or questions that have to do with our spiritual dependence to understand such matters. Our convictions/doctrines are rooted in the word, through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Yours is rooted in indoctrination- the word and human logic.
I will ask again – has the Holy Spirit revealed what you have learned to be true to you?
Without a problem I can answered for you with a resounding – Nope. Your study and logic has – not God. Not God and if you were to say otherwise, you would be lying period. How presumptuous of me to make such statement – nope – is simply the truth and you know it. You have study doctrine no doubt about that, that may make you a good theologian of your church/denomination, but not someone who proclaims God’s truth.
You have stated a few times that Jesus did not exist before his incarnation. Man you need to start reading asking the Spirit to teach you. I KNOW I AM BEIG REDUMDANT WITH THIS ISSUE, but man– set aside what you been taught and what we tell you and go directly to God and ask Him to help you understand this very understandable truth.
Flesh and blood cannot reveal this to you. You are not seeking to learn, you are only seeking to teach what you believe to be true, because you have invested so much into it. In order for you to see the truth you have to be willing to learn. A teachable attitude is a must.
John 8:58 (New International Version)
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Whenever we show you a verse clearly showing the deity, you pull the mistranslation of the verse card. Like you did with Hebrews 1:8, I did not respond to you, because is obvious to me that you do not want to learn, you want to teach only. I could go on and on and on and on pointing out the many discrepancies of your logical conclusions, but for what – you don’t have a teachable spirit. You have been given plenty of truth and you just ignore it, without asking the Spirit of truth to show you if indeed what you are being presented is truth or lie.
Recently you stated: Wrong and unbiblical interpretation of adherents to Christ-is-God doctrine:
God is "I am",
Christ says "I am"
Therefore Christ is God
"Fallacy of Equivocation".
Wrong! none of those examples constitutes the Fallacy of Equivocation, which is perhaps the most simple and obvious of the fallacies of ambiguity. Here, a single term is used with two or more meanings in the same argument.
In other words a word being use in an argument subtlety acquires another meaning within the same argument. At one point the term is given one meaning, but within the same argument and very subtlety the word acquires another meaning. Nope Mr. we are not doing that. You have not understood what the fallacy describes. We are simply reading the text and the Spirit of our Lord is doing the rest.
God bless you friend.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Paula... I stand in agreement with your prayer for hellofull;
Thank you Heavenly Father for hearing our prayer. We praise you and thank you that you do not want anyone to perish, but to submit to You and Your truth, and receive eternal life. Thank you LORD for each one here. Father, because of your son, You have received each one of us, Thank you for holding on and never letting us be snatched from Your hand. Thank You that You have drawn us in, even to save us from dying us in our sin long before we knew You. Your power and who You are leaves us in Awe of Your Majesty! We lift up this child 'hellofull' and place him in your hands LORD because You can do all things. We ask LORD that You would soften his heart LORD and give him a teachable spirit, we ask in Jesus' name.. We Love You LORD! Amen!
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Yes Lord! Thank you that you have given us the Spirit of Truth to be taught in your ways Lord. Lord help Hellofull with this doctrine as you helped us.
Bless this man using the title Hellofull, you know him better than He knows himself. Help him see the truth my Lord and give Him the boldness to stand on it regardless of what he will be given up for doing so - in your name we pray.
We are your people, called by your name, praying under your will. Amen!
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Bro Hellefull,
You said: But nothing is written about God taking on human flesh. below is the prophesy of the coming of God in the Flesh - John the baptist and the messiah fulfill the prophecy -
Isaih 40:
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“ Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make straight in the desert[a]
A highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough places smooth;
5 The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
Below is the prophecy of His second coming - who is coming God the son.
10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand,
And His arm shall rule for Him;
Behold, His reward is with Him,
And His work before Him.
11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd;
He will gather the lambs with His arm,
And carry them in His bosom,
And gently lead those who are with young.
12 Who has measured the waters[c] in the hollow of His hand,
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Permalink Reply by Hellofull on
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Dear David Velasquez,
The Bible should be the sole basis of our faith. One should not reject the Biblical truth, what we must reject are the false interpretation and doctrine created by man, which the apostles did not teach.
What are examples of doctrines created by man and not taught by the Apostles? Let us take as an example the wrong interpretation of others of what is written in Genesis 1:26.
This is what is written in Genesis 1:26:
“Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (New International Version)
What is their erroneous conclusion regarding this verse? According to them, the “us” mentioned in the verse are Christ and the Holy Spirit and they are co-creators of God—the Father.
The verse itself and even the whole Scriptures do no teach that the pronoun “us” refers to any co-creator of God. What we can read in the following verse and in other verses in the Bible further proves that God—the Father is the only Creator.
Genesis 1:27
“So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” (New King James Version, emphasis mine)
Isaiah 44:24
“Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;” (New King James Version, emphasis mine)
What is another wrong interpretation of man regarding this verse? They say that ELOHIM was used in the verse which is a noun in its plural form; therefore, there are three persons in one God.
Grammatically speaking they are already in error. According to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, the use of plural form (ELOHIM) to refer to the one God is usually explained as “plural of majesty.” (ed. F. L. Cross, p. 454)
“The form Elohim, when used of the God of Israel, is a plural of majesty. The Israelites, however, used Elohim for their one and only God, who excludes all other genuine deities. He is seen as the creator God endowed with all-embracing power, the ruler of absolute will.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 5. Nihil Obstat: John P. Whalen, M.A., STD. Censor Deputatos; Imprimatur: Patrick A. O’Boyle, D. D., p. 287)
Such conclusion is not just against the rules of grammar it’s even against what is written in the Bible. We should not supposed God could be a million in one just because ELOHIM was used to refer to Him. Nor should we supposed that God is 3 in 1. What we must do is base our faith in the Bible.
There is only one God, according to the prophets, the apostles, our Lord Jesus Christ, and our Lord God Himself. (Mal. 2:10, I Cor. 8:6, John 17:1-3, Isa. 45:21). Let us remember what the apostles told us regarding such teaching that is not taught by them.
“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” (Gal. 1:6-8 New International Version)
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Hellefull you have already discussed all the above text with numerous people on this site. In multiple discussions, but here you go again trying to start yet another discussion with your logical fallacy.
I sought the Lord's guidance and have no desire to argue or discuss this issue any further with you.
You are not going to convince me that what the church has believe from the foundation laid by the Apostles until today is erroneous, nor have you succeeded in convincing anyone else in this entire community.
There are wonderful discussions going on that I would much rather get involved in, so Sir I pray you consider what we have share with you and pray fully take it before the Lord.
I have looked at what you have presented and follow your logic on the matter, but cannot agree to it.
So be well friend, the Lord bless you.
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Dear David Velasquez,
How do others interpret what is written in Isaiah 40:3?
They say Isaiah prophesied “Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.” According to them, John the Baptist prepared the way and the one who was prepared for was Christ. They conclude using such premises, that Christ is the Lord and God who come here on earth, (clothe with flesh, as others put it).
This is what is written in Isaiah 40:3
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.” (New King James Version)
What will be prepared is the way and not God.
Who is the way being referred to in the verse?
“Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6 NKJV). Jesus is the way to God. How else did the Bible introduce Christ?
“I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” (John 10:9 NKJV). So, Christ is the way and the door.
How can man be drawn closer to God by walking through Christ as the way or by entering by Christ as the door? By Christ’s redemption through His blood and because of which we are forgiven of our sins.
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7 NKJV).
Who is the one referred to as the one by who sins are forgiven? Christ (John 1:29)
Why Isa. 40:3 shouldn’t be used to teach that Christ is God? Which else is called the way? The commandments of God (Proverbs 6:23)
Who is the voice prophesied? John the Baptist who is the messenger sent by God, ahead of Christ.
“For John is the one of whom the scripture says: 'God said, I will send my messenger ahead of you to open the way for you.'” (Luke 7:27, Today’s English Version). John the Baptist did prepare the “way of the Lord” who is Christ, for He was sent ahead of Christ.
Aside from being ahead of Christ, what else is the duty of John the Baptist who is sent by God?
"And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins, (Luke 1:76-77, NKJV). To give the people knowledge of salvation.
Nothing about God clothe with flesh and come down on earth.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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1TI 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV
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Dear LT,
Indeed "God was manifest in the flesh" (I Timothy 3:16) "because what may be known of God is manifest in them" (Romans 1:19). "Being understood by the things that are made" (Romans 1:20).
God is manifested in His works. How was God manifested in Christ? Through the wonders God--the Father made through our Lord Jesus Christ.
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know" (Acts 2:22, NKJV, emphasis mine).
God was also manifested in Apostle Paul who is a man or flesh (Gen. 6:3).
"This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, "Stand up straight on your feet!" And he leaped and walked. Now when the people saw what Paul had done, they raised their voices, saying in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!" And Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, intending to sacrifice with the multitudes. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them," (Acts 14:9-15, NKJV, emphasis mine)
What was the reaction of the people upon witnessing what God has done through Apostle Paul? They thought Paul is a god who come down in the likeness of men. Like others here who mistakenly believed that Christ is God because God was manifested in Christ.
"But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, "No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live." But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god. In that region there was an estate of the leading citizen of the island, whose name was Publius, who received us and entertained us courteously for three days. And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him. So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed." (Acts 28:3-9, NKJV, emphasis mine)
May God bless you in your study of His words.
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You take 1 Timothy 3:16 out of context as you do most of the verses you use.
How non-Jewish people acted who did not know the Scriptures or Jesus have no bearing on the reality of Jesus' Deity. The Jews recognized that Jesus called Himself God in the verses we have discussed over and over.
Jesus is God and part of the Triune God. You can attempt to refute it the rest of your life, but a day will come when you will stand before the very one you deny and find that you are wrong. Your blood is own your own hands. The time has come. I have nothing further to say to you as I will treat you as a false teacher. I will refute your error, but not engage you again unless you come to repentance and find the true Jesus that you speak against.
LT
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John Darby's Synopsis of the Bible
Isaiah 40:1-8
The first eight verses of chapter 40 express in a very remarkable manner the principles on which God acts: the grace flowing from His own heart, when His chastisements had been fully inflicted. God would comfort His people; and He speaks to the heart of Jerusalem, by telling her that her warfare is accomplished. The herald proclaims the coming of Jehovah. And here it is the fact, as deliverance: His rejection is not mentioned. It is spoken of later in chapters 51, 53. But with respect to the people, what must the prophet say? "All flesh is grass." If all flesh is to see the glory of Jehovah, if He pleads in vengeance with all flesh, this is where the testimony must begin. All flesh is grass: Jehovah bloweth upon it. Is it thus with the Gentiles only? No; "the people is grass." Comfort must begin with this. The grass withereth; who, then, can be trusted in? God has spoken. "The word of our God" (says the faith of the remnant—says the Spirit of prophecy) "shall stand for ever."
I could continue posting the commentaries from The Geneva Study Bible, John Gill's Expossition of the Bible. The McArthur study Bible; Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown commentaries; but i will end with John Wesley's Notes on the Bible:
Isaiah 40:3
The voice - An abrupt speech. Methinks I hear a voice. Wilderness - This immediately relates to the deliverance of the Jews out of Babylon, and smoothing their passage from thence to Judea, which lay through a great wilderness; but principally to their redemption by the Messiah, whose coming was ushered in by the cry of John the baptist, in the wilderness. Prepare ye the way - You to whom this work belongs. He alludes to the custom of princes who send pioneers before them to prepare the way through which they are to pass. The meaning is, God shall by his spirit so dispose mens hearts, and by his providence so order the affairs of the world, as to make way for the accomplishment of his promise. This was eminently fulfilled, when Christ, who was, and is God, blessed for ever, came into the world in a visible manner.
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